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This topic was originally posted in this forum: Modified Tech Talk
Author Topic:   Too Hot!!
Rook 78
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posted April 19, 2004 07:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rook 78     
2bbl carb gas. 73 jets 80* tempurature at track. 250* during race, goes no higher. I do have a shroud. Any suggestions on how to get it to stay cooler. 355ci motor.


udecide66
Member
posted April 19, 2004 01:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for udecide66     
Stewart stage III water pump, 1:1 ratio pulleys, 4-blade fan, straight distilled water with a rust inhibitor like "water wetter" no thermostat or restrictor.
to name a few things


Ego Racing
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posted April 19, 2004 07:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ego Racing   Click Here to Email Ego Racing     
I have NEVER had a car run cool free flowing we have always had to run something to slow the water flow through the radiator to let it cool the water.
Aluminum Radiator. What fan are you running? I have had problems with factory and after market steel and aluminum fans flattening out at RPM's. We run the Flex-A-Lite plastics, Use a shroud! Make it as tight a fit to the fan as Possable! Seal it to the radiator! Keep the fan 1/2 way out of the shroud! If you are under 5500 RPM the 1:1 ratio is probably ok any above and you need to reduce the pump speed. I have had to use a 90 degree V-6 reduction pulley before. Use a Quality Aluminum pump not a cheap import. If you can't run aluminum get one of the pump disks that pop rivet to the back of the impeller to help it move water. If you use the disk do not start at 1:1 as it can make enough pressure to swell the radiator tubes. Get ALL of the air out!!!!! We put an air bleader in the T-Stat neck so you can bleed air out while hot and not loose a lot of water. We run in florida on gas 355 - 434 ci small block chevys on dirt and asphault with on track temps up to and over 120 degrees and air temp well over 95 Degrees. The 355 is 15:1 comp and we run it up to 8500 RPM. We run the stuff stated above and a 60 percent reduction pulley on a Edelbrock pump and have run a CSI electric pump on 25 - 150 lap races.


NJantz
Member
posted April 20, 2004 06:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for NJantz     
Rook I don't know if you are running some sort of a restrictor or not in the water neck or not. I have personaly witnessed what Ego is saying about a car not running cool with no restriction. The water needs to be slowed down so it can cool off in the radiator. When the water is free flowing it doesn't have much time to be cooled down by the radiator. Buy yourself some restrictor washers and see if you can get the temp down.

I have no clue what jetting should be for a 2bl. carb.

[This message has been edited by NJantz (edited April 20, 2004).]

Rook 78
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posted April 20, 2004 07:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rook 78     
Gentleman, thanks for the info, we have ran the car 3 times so far. The first night was practice with 78 jets, it was mild about 60* it got to about 220* the second night at opener it was very cool, 50* max ran about 210-220* with 75 jets the third night was about 70* we ran 240-250 with 73 jets. We are going to do some work on the shroud this week and go back to 75 jets, I understand (from what I have been told) with gas both too lean and too rich can cause heat. (Can somebody confirm this for me) I will put in a restrictor, but can you suggest the proper diameter I should try? Also, if you have been following my Rookie posts, I still have distributor problems, we will be changing the distributor this week, can a poorly performing distributor cause heat problems? Thanks again for your assistance. I have an aluminum radiator in good shape, clean. I also have a 17" steel four blade fan.


ratracer10
Member
posted April 20, 2004 07:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ratracer10     
I was just going to post to tell you to check your timing, but I see you beat me to the reply. That could be a big part of your problem and very often an overlooked one when having a cooling problem.

Other then that there are so many variables and misconceptions to cooling an engine that these posts always get a debate going.

What kind of water pump are you running and what rpm? Your goal here is to get as much air and water flowing through the radiator as possible.

As for the restrictor, that depends on the question above. The only reason to run a restrictor is if you water pump can not create enough pressure in to block to enable adequate flow and the only reason for a thermostat is if you can’t get enough heat in the engine.

------------------
- When in doubt, hit the gas.


Rook 78
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posted April 20, 2004 07:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rook 78     
Just talked to the owner(Dad) and I was unaware, but there is a restrictor in the gooseneck. Our shoroud is not the best, and that will be repaired. But the timing/distributor has been an issue from day one. We will give that a try this weekend hopefully that will help it. I have only been in competition twice now, but the max rpm I can get out of the motor is 6000. It seems to max out about half way down the straights and then kinda flutter from there. I was told it was a DUI distributor(not sure) numbers on the bottom if anyone can identify it are scribed in 24* e2600. Also, with 24* of advance, where should the motor be timed?


juliaferrell
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posted April 20, 2004 11:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for juliaferrell   Click Here to Email juliaferrell     
There is your heat problem. 24 is not enough. try 32-36. Your headers have to be getting cherry. Way to slow on time. way too slow.!!


Ego Racing
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posted April 20, 2004 12:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ego Racing   Click Here to Email Ego Racing     
Ratracer10 There should be NO air in the cooling system. Air will allow the water to biol. A restrictor is not for pressure but to slow folw so the thermal heat sink (Radiator) has time to soak the heat from the coolant.
Try a slightly larger holed restrictor. Get the timming fixed, the flutter as you put it could be pre-detionation. Where is your temp pickup? I corrected an overheating problem on a Latemodel running alcahol by moving the pickup, it was mounted in the left head and was being cooked by the header. The owner was doing all kinds of stuff with the fan shroud and jetting to cool it off and it was only getting up to 160 degrees. The head temp was reading incorrectly due to the headers. If he wasn't running synthetic oil it would have caused problems because it was not getting the oil up to temp.


Ego Racing
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posted April 20, 2004 12:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ego Racing   Click Here to Email Ego Racing     
Also What Pulleys are you running?


ratracer10
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posted April 20, 2004 01:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ratracer10     
I guess I shouldn’t have tried to make the post brief. Yes I know there should be no air in the cooling system. What I was trying to say is increase the water flow through the inside of the radiator and increase the air pulled through the cooling fins by the fan.

Holding the coolant in the radiator longer is the wrong idea for a closed system. The longer you hold the water in the radiator the longer it stays in the block also. What you are trying to remove from the engine to the water, then from the water to the radiator, then from the radiator to the air is units of heat not units of temperature, there is a difference.

I have set up my cooling systems a few different ways (with and without restrictors depending on the other components) and all have run at proper temperatures. My previous was with no restrictor and a high flow race pump its only flaw was sometimes the temperature would drop too much with a lot of cautions and never get back up to 200. Also it was a pain to get heat into the engine prior to racing.

I am not denying that you may need a restrictor in your particular cooling system; some will not work without one. I just want to caution restrictors are not a cure all, not all systems are the same and they need to be considered as a whole.

Rook, sounds like your timing and shroud are your main problems. As far as which restrictor that depends on what water pump you are running.

------------------
- When in doubt, hit the gas.


dirtbuster
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posted April 20, 2004 02:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dirtbuster   Click Here to Email dirtbuster     
I agree with ratracer on the holding water in the block too long. You want to keep the cooler water flowing in and keep the temp difference between the water and the block as great as possible in order to absorb as much heat as possible and carry it out. To do this you have to increase flow through the block. I feel if you need more cooling capacity you need to look at the heat exchange at the radiator. Either a bigger radiator or more airflow via better fan, shroud etc. to keep a cooler supply or larger supply of cool water to pump back n the block.


Ego Racing
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posted April 20, 2004 07:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ego Racing   Click Here to Email Ego Racing     
TRY this Put a pan on the stove and get it HOT... Pour water over the pan and see how long it takes to cool. Then dump the water in the pan and see how long. What you are trying to exchange is british thermial units BTU's without the proper amount of tine in the engine or radiator the water/cooling fluid will not allow the heat to transfer. An air conditoner dose not COOL the air it removes the heat from it, as dose a cooling system on a car. If you try to freeze water that is running through a pipe you can get the pipe well below zero and the water will not freeze as it is not allowing the proper exchange of BTU's to the running water. If you restrict the water it will cool MUCH faster and freeze the water. If you are not running a restrictor of some type and have adequate cooling either there is a restriction in the system somewhere or the pump is not preforming well and the water is soaking the heat away by not moving enough. ALL cooling systems designed for equipment to machinery have a restriction in the flow of coolant if it is oil or water based. Think of your oiling system it provides two things, lubrication and heat transfer. If your clearences get to large the oil pressure drops bearings are still getting oil but they fail, you pull it apart and it is blue from heat. It was lubricated by the oil but with little or no restriction the cooling aspect is gone.


Ego Racing
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posted April 20, 2004 07:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ego Racing   Click Here to Email Ego Racing     
Racer10 with no restrictor a race pump and to cool. That is on your water temp guage correct. I have seen the temp readings in an engine with two guages, one in the head and one in the water neck, The water neck showed 180 degrees and the head water temp was over 280 degrees. The water was moving to fast to get heat out of the block, the aluminum neck was insulating the temp probe from the engine heat. The probe in the head was showing a temp higher than the water because the headers were cooking it. The water when restricted showed 210 which was the correct temp for the engine. It was a real eye opener. This was done in a thermal dynamics lab in a class I took for school. It was a study of heat transfer to a viscus fluid. If we could cool our engines with a hydraulic like fluid and get the flow right cars would never get hot even when the coolant got dirty, and the radiators and engines would not rust or corroide. Oh the study was done with three different engines even a Briggs and Stration submerged in a tank of fluid.


juliaferrell
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posted April 20, 2004 08:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for juliaferrell   Click Here to Email juliaferrell     
I think ego is saying this:

If you place temp guages all over the thing. ie water neck, intake, radiator, radiator hoses, both upper and lower, and oil temp guages, in head, pan, and galley off pump,(((((((((if your cooling system is working properly all these temperatures at maximum operating temp should be the same. If you have 250 in the head and 200 in the hose then your not flowing. if you have 200 in the head and 250 in the hose your not flowing. You need equal temps from one side to the other. I trouble shoot the cooling system by using this same manner. (2 or 3 guages)

fastow
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posted April 20, 2004 10:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fastow     
This cooling subject is always a good one LOL Here is another thing I believe worth looking at if your useing an old fan check it make sure it hasn't flattened out I have seen them go from having 2 inch of pitch to 1 1\4 inch pitch this make it pull a lot less air. You guys running the l:1 pulley setup think about how much more you are asking of your fan. I have heard of and believe if you turn a fan fast enough it will turn into a wall and stop air completly think about how many laps you could run if you blocked your rad. off half way down each straightaway. as far as the speed of the coolant thur the block if you speed up the coolant in the block you can't help but speed it up in the rad. witch means if it don't spend as much time in the block soaking up the heat it not as much time in the rad. dumping the heat. That said coolant flow not a big deal. I believe go with a big steep pitch fan blade that pulls a bunch of air don't worry about spinning it as fast. One thing there's alot of ways that have worked for differrent reasons but don't burn down an engine trying to get it right good luck. P.S. let us know what you do try and what works and don't.


Rook 78
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posted April 21, 2004 07:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rook 78     
Juliaferrel, sorry I should have clarified. I have a distributor marked 24* advance the car was timed to 36* We are putting in a different distributor tonite, I have began building a shroud that will cover the entire radiator leaving half of the fan exposed. And I am trying to locate a different fan pully. The thing is huge compared to the crank pully. Also, the nose piece we had side panels, we removed them to try and get more air flow to the radiator. The owner(Dad) has changed jets back up to 75 from 73 although the plugs look a bit rich as it is. Thanks for all of the info guys....it is obvious there are many different opinions on cooling, when we resolve our issue, I will let you know.

[This message has been edited by Rook 78 (edited April 21, 2004).]

Rook 78
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posted April 21, 2004 07:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rook 78     
I dont want to add any more fuel to this disscusion, but...we are running straight anti-freeze, is this a no no?


ratracer10
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posted April 21, 2004 07:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ratracer10     
"There is an elementary equation from basic thermodynamics that states that the rate of heat transfer (Q) equals the mass flow rate (M) times a Constant (the specific heat of water) times the Delta T (fluid temp out minus fluid temp in):

Q = M x C x Delta T

In other words, the rate of heat transfer is directly proportional to mass flow rate. If you increase the flow rate, you will then increase the rate of heat transfer. Since you cannot mess with mother nature, it is very naive to think it works any other way."

These are not my words, but I could not say it any better my self. The laws of thermodynamics are the same no matter where you go. The below two links should have all the information you need to analyze how your cooling system works. Have fun a good reading.

http://www.westrain.org/WReactor/ThermodynamicsCh2.PDF
http://tis.eh.doe.gov/techstds/standard/hdbk1012/h1012v3.pdf


UFnARacing
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posted April 21, 2004 08:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for UFnARacing   Click Here to Email UFnARacing     
Amen Rat, as someone who has worked with hydraulic systems for over 15 years, I agree that more flow equals more cooling. When I say "more flow" I mean more flow in the coolant and more flow in the "cooling agent" or the air through the radiator.

Stewart's website has some really good info on the subject of cooling.

------------------
http://webpages.charter.net/ufnaracing/


GO 24
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posted April 21, 2004 11:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for GO 24   Click Here to Email GO 24     
Rook, take that antifreeze out. For example, I use (typical cooling system) 1/2 gallon antifreeze to protect from rust, 1 container of water wetter, and fill the entire system up with distilled water. If freezing is gonna be a problem ie...late in the fall you can add more antifreeze but IT does not cool near as well as plain distilled water. You probably need a smaller crank pulley and if that dist is causing you to misfire at all it will heat the engine up quicker than normal.


NJantz
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posted April 21, 2004 12:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for NJantz     
http://www.stewartcomponents.com/html/tech_support/techtip3.asp

Tech Tip #3 - Thermostats & Restrictors

Thermostats & Restrictors
We strongly recommend NEVER using a restrictor: they decrease coolant flow and ultimately inhibit cooling.

For applications requiring a thermostat to keep the engine at operating temperature, we recommend using a Stewart/Robertshaw high flow thermostat. This thermostat does not restrict flow when open. The Stewart/ Robertshaw thermostat enhances the performance of the cooling system, using any style of water pump. However, the Stewart Stage 1 high-flow water pump may require this thermostat to operate properly, and Stewart Stage 2, 3, and 4 water pumps simply will NOT operate with a regular thermostat because these pumps have no internal bypasses.

Stewart further modifies its thermostat by machining three 3/16" bypass holes directly in the poppet valve, which allows some coolant to bypass the thermostat even when closed. This modification does result in the engine taking slightly longer to reach operating temperature in cold weather, but it allows the thermostat to function properly when using a high flow water pump at high engine RPM.

A common misconception is that if coolant flows too quickly through the system, that it will not have time to cool properly. However the cooling system is a closed loop, so if you are keeping the coolant in the radiator longer to allow it to cool, you are also allowing it to stay in the engine longer, which increases coolant temperatures. Coolant in the engine will actually boil away from critical heat areas within the cooling system if not forced through the cooling system at a sufficiently high velocity. This situation is a common cause of so-called "hot spots", which can lead to failures.

Years ago, cars used low pressure radiator caps with upright-style radiators. At high RPM, the water pump pressure would overcome the radiator cap's rating and force coolant out, resulting in an overheated engine. Many enthusiasts mistakenly believed that these situations were caused because the coolant was flowing through the radiator so quickly, that it did not have time to cool. Using restrictors or slowing water pump speed prevented the coolant from being forced out, and allowed the engine to run cooler. However, cars built in the past thirty years have used cross flow radiators that position the radiator cap on the low pressure (suction) side of the system. This type of system does not subject the radiator cap to pressure from the water pump, so it benefits from maximizing coolant flow, not restricting

NJantz
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posted April 21, 2004 12:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for NJantz     
Coolant
UNEQUIVOCALLY WATER IS THE BEST COOLANT! We recommend using a corrosion inhibitor comparable to Prestone Super Anti-Rust when using pure water. If freezing is a concern, use the minimum amount of antifreeze required for your climate. Stewart Components has extensively tested all of the popular "magic" cooling system additives, and found that none work better than water. In fact, some additives have been found to swell the water pumps seals and contribute to pump failures.

In static cooling situations, such as quenching metal during heat treating, softening agents (sometimes referred to as water wetting agents) will allow the water to cool the quenched part more evenly and quickly. The part will cool quicker, and the water will heat up faster. However, an automotive cooling system is not static. In fact, the velocities inside a cooling system are comparable to a fire hose forcing coolant against the walls of the engine's water jackets. If the softening agents actually aided in cooling the engine, the temperature of the coolant as it exited the engine would have to be higher because it would have absorbed more heat.


Ego Racing
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posted April 21, 2004 12:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ego Racing   Click Here to Email Ego Racing     
Ratracer10 Page 11 of the top link reads : In forced convection processes, fluid is forced to move past a surface by a pump, fan
or other device, picking up or giving up heat to the surface by which it passes.
The previous natural convection discussion emphasized that heat energy was
transported and dispersed because of natural fluid movement. In that case the
movement is caused by density changes and resultant buoyant forces, and the fluid
motion was inherently slow. The amount of heat which can be removed from (or added
to) a surface can be significantly increased by forcing the fluid to move past the surface
with some controlled velocity. For example, a hot radiator requires natural circulation of
air to heat a room; however, if a fan assists in air movement across the radiator surface
the heat transfer process will be improved. Another way to say this is that the increased
turbulence associated with the forced flow will increase the magnitude of the convective
heat transfer coefficient, h of the fluid, thus increasing the heat transfer rate.

The control in velocity would be a restriction to slow velocity, Not a free flow system. The above equation works where natural thermal inclines dictate fluid flow. In A car fluid flow is controled by a pump and the system is under pressure.

dirtbuster
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posted April 21, 2004 01:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dirtbuster   Click Here to Email dirtbuster     
Using the heating radiator example again. It is saying that left alone the radiator and natural air currents are less effecient than forcing more air past it which makes it more efficient. Same thing inside the engine block. IF you didnt force water through it would still flow by itself but not nearly as fast. Can you imageine how hot it would be before making it out of the block. Think about how an engine will heat soak after it is shut off. Without having water forced through it it heats up.

Here is another thought. If you want and engine to heat up what do you do? You put in a thermostat which is a restrictor. IT gets hot and the t-stat opens reducing the restriction and the engine cools down. SO if you want it to run cooler wouldnt you want to reduce restriction like opening the t-stat does??

Ego Racing
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posted April 21, 2004 02:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ego Racing   Click Here to Email Ego Racing     
In most unrestricted flow engines the heat transfer to the water is slower than the heat buildup in the castiron heads and block. If the T-stat in your street car was removed what would happen? By some of the logic here it would freeze up.
Jnatz I agree with the T-stat but the problem we found is here with the hot temp already they open very quickly and slow the flow to much and cause a overheating problem. Besides I always liked recomendations from a company that tells you the other stuff is all wrong then gives you there part that is better don't you. Restrictors are not a cure all by any means but they allow you to ballance the flow through the radiator to allow the heat to transfer to the tubes and fins of the radiator. The biggest thing is to get the best hest transfre to the radiator. At 6000rpm with a high flow water pump the radaitor is not going to cool the water as good as it should because it is being pushed through the tubes to fast.
Boil water in a pot now pour 1/2 over an aluminum pan and measuer the temp of the pan. Then dump the rest into the pan and hold it there for 3 seconds and measure the pan. Which is hotter? Think of the pan as the radiator if the water slows down it transfers more heat to the radiator which cools the water more, cooler water cooler engine.


NJantz
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posted April 21, 2004 02:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for NJantz     
"At 6000rpm with a high flow water pump the radaitor is not going to cool the water as good as it should because it is being pushed through the tubes to fast."-Ego

With this in mind I have an analogy. If you wanted to remove the suspended particulate matter found in dirty pond water and make it more clear you wouldn't increase the flow rate to separate the particulate matter from the water. So why would you increase the flowrate at the radiator by removing the restrictor in order to separate the heat from the water?



dirtbuster
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posted April 21, 2004 02:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dirtbuster   Click Here to Email dirtbuster     
While your holding the water in the radiator longer are you not holding it in the block longer as well. Isnt the idea to carry heat away from the block casting. Since there is a greater temp difference between the block and the inlet water than there is between the radiator/oulet water and the outside airflow i would think you gain more heat in the block than what you get rid of from the same amount of water in the same amount of time in the radiator. If it were equal then you would only need a radiator that held the same amount of water as the block because you would get rid of all the heat you picked up in the block. As it is you need a larger radiator (like 3 or 4 times larger) to keep a larger supply of cooler water flowing into the block at all times to balance the heat flow of the engine. Also the water in that enters the radiator does not immediately flow through the radiator and back to the engine. When new hotter water enters the radiator part of this reserve water that has been in the radiator for awhile and has been cooled flows into the engine. If you need more cooling you need to increase the cooling capacity of the radiator. If you have more heat to get rid of then you need a bigger radiator or more airflow or cooler airflow etc.


Ego Racing
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posted April 21, 2004 06:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ego Racing   Click Here to Email Ego Racing     
Dirtbuster: Yes, you do leave it in the block longer this allows it to pull more heat from the block. The ideal situation is to leave it there until it soak as much heat as possable but not boiling then move it to the radiator to be cooled as much as possable them returned to start the cycle again.
The thing to remember is you can COOK an engine and not run hot on the water until it is to late. That is why Nextel Cup and major racers use an Oil temp guage. To moniter the oil temp and the water temp and see where they are. I have seen an engine with 200 degree water have an oil temp of over 280 degrees. You should try to keep the oil under 230 and idealy it is only about 30 degrees warmer tham the water but not always. At 30 degrees more you are using the cooling system to it's maximum.


chief4car
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posted April 21, 2004 07:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chief4car   Click Here to Email chief4car     
Part of the reason you want to increase the flow of water is to create turbulance. When you create more turbulence the water sort of tumbles and moves around alot more. This creates a scrubbing action that will 1 - take more heat out of the engine and help prevent steam pockets and 2 the scrubbing action and the turbulance of the water actually helps the radiator cool better - more heat transfered to the tubes. A race pump not only flows more but creates more pressure. The increase in pressure and turbulance help to eliminate steam pockets in the heads, thus transfering more heat to the water therefore your motor runs cooler. If you don't believe that the faster moving water will remove the steam pockets and cool better. Take a pot of water and heat it up, as it gets close to boiling there are little bubbles that form on the bottom of the pan - these are steam pockets. Now take a spoon and stir the water. The bubbles disappear. This same principle applys to the inside of your cylinder heads. The only reason to run a restrictor is if you cannot get enough heat in a motor or you are runniing a stock pump and need one to increase the PRESSURE in the block. Again the pressure in the engine makes a big difference.


Ego Racing
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posted April 22, 2004 09:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ego Racing   Click Here to Email Ego Racing     
chief4car : the radiator is pressurized which inhibits the water from bioling. My Logic is you must control flow not stop it. If you stop flow the water will boil nad you get steam pockets.
If you guys want to see for yourself use an temp sensing device on you block, at the radiator and the temp guage in the car and see what the temps are running.
How many of you run an oil temp guage with your water temp guage? The idea for best performance is to ballance the whole package. If you want to go with just a water temp and think the oil is always 30 degrees over good luck. If you have ever been to a dyno session you can monitor the water at several points and the oil temp and you will realise there is a difference.


nolimit92
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posted April 23, 2004 07:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for nolimit92   Click Here to Email nolimit92     
Had the same problem in our hobby stock. First Weld the distributor to lock up the advance (or buy the locking plate). What happens with Stock HEI is the mechanical advance will actually advance more then 24 (ours advanced 32 @ 5500). I even purchased a brand new Accell that advanced 30 @ 5500.

Just something to check out.

Mike

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