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Author Topic:   A different cam question
Eljojo
Member
posted November 12, 2004 06:21 AM
Our local engine builders here always grind the numbers off the camshaft before they install it. They act like the grind is some kind of top secret voodoo and will not tell the customer anything about the camshaft. Is that a common practice everywhere?


rico 08
Member
posted November 12, 2004 07:04 AM
Sometimes,it can go either way..i've seen good cams ground on to protect the specs and i've seen cheap cams ground on to protect the builder..


engineman
Member
posted November 12, 2004 07:26 AM
Yep....

but most of the time I only do it when it's a custom grind...I figure if I spent a bunch of time doing R&D,testing,and ect... to come up with a grind that works,then the guy that "claims" it or whatever should spend some time finding out what it is, and why it works.

God I know I'm fixin to get hammered for what I'm about to say....but it's the truth!

Most engine builders have an un-written rule NOT to share what they do with anyone but the customer,and not to tell one customer what they do for another. And we try to protect our customers and what they run from everyone else.

I'm so hard core about this that I wont sponser ANYONE that claims an engine, and most of the time I wont touch a claimed engine unless I built it!! I dont wanna know what another engine builder is doing, and I dont want to be acused of "copying" anything I didnt learn on my own... I do my own thing!

In spite of this I grind a lot of cam numbers off, I have a couple of cam grinds that work so well in certin classes that I wont even tell the customers what they are. I know a lot of you think "that aint right", but I spent a lot of time and money getting these cams to do what I wanted, and I dont want some "Joe Racer" just copying it without a little trouble on his part,or a customer getting drunk and telling his buddies in the shop about his top secret camshaft........stuff gets around quick...specially when it runs up front every week!

I know these things always come out, but if it's prolonged, I have time to work on somthing better.

------------------
Mark's Racing Engines

(903)883-0196

www.northtexasracing.com

engineman@northtexasracing.com


Kromulous
Member
posted November 12, 2004 07:49 AM
I dont see anything wrong with it, you gotta protect what secrets you can. The customers should help try to protect the engine builders secrets as well, i think anyway.

Although i dont agree on not copying, learning from others is not copying. Copying something blindly while not trying to understand the why's and how's is bad, learning something from others and coming to understand the why's and how's is not.

racerman707
Member
posted November 12, 2004 08:19 AM
I run a custom ground cam in a 2300. This cam is the best I've ran yet and I know all the specs on it. However it was not my design. Another racer at my track spent hours on the dyno and at the cam manufacturer getting the most he could by the rules. The one and only reason he let me in on it was that the second race he got together with another car(clearly not his fault) and ended up being a big fight. He was barred indefinitly and nothing was done to the other one involved. So he called me and more or less said he would share his info with me because he knew I wouldn't say anything to anybody about it. So he ordered me a cam and said I had to grind the numbers off it, which I GLADLY did! I never asked for his info because I knew how good he ran and how much time it took him to run that good. The point is if someone sayes to you don't tell anyone DON'T TELL ANYONE because more than likely they have sacrificed alot of time and money. Just my opinion.


engineman
Member
posted November 12, 2004 08:41 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Kromulous:
I dont see anything wrong with it, you gotta protect what secrets you can. The customers should help try to protect the engine builders secrets as well, i think anyway.

Although i dont agree on not copying, learning from others is not copying. Copying something blindly while not trying to understand the why's and how's is bad, learning something from others and coming to understand the why's and how's is not.


well, thats kinda what I meant, but I dont go out of my way to find out what everyone else is doing, I try and come up with my own ideas. I do listen and learn from others, and like I said...if I grind the # off of a cam, and someone goes to great lengths to find out what it is and why it works....well I guess they deserve to know. nothing wrong with that.

BUT.......
Here is my case in point...I know of an engine builder here in Texas that has actually paid drivers to claim certain engines so he could dissect them...put them back together,sell them, and "claim the glory", he has gotten a couple of my motors, as well as a bunch of other reputable engine builders engines around here. And he openly admits he does this!
and it really makes me mad! So I grind numbers off.

------------------
Mark's Racing Engines

(903)883-0196

www.northtexasracing.com

engineman@northtexasracing.com

[This message has been edited by True Blue (edited November 12, 2004).]
ooops! True Blue BUSTED me with a cuss word...sorry!

[This message has been edited by engineman (edited November 12, 2004).]

Kromulous
Member
posted November 12, 2004 09:52 AM
Wow, thats pretty lame indeed. He would fit the first part of the equation.

As my dad says "There is nothing sacred anymore" LOL kinda fits.

Like i say, gaurd what you can, and try to get the customers to do the same. It will help them as much you in the end, especially if they want to continue to win.

JT54
Member
posted November 12, 2004 10:53 AM
But it's temporary at best,it's rather easy to degree the cam...or rate the spring,unless the cam is made for a specific combo that is uncommon it's just a temporary setback for the copycat.


Istock66
unregistered
posted November 12, 2004 03:52 PM           
I have never gotten a good cam I guess, because of the 9 I have sitting here none have ever had any worthwile numbers on them to grind off??

What cam manufacturer puts the part number on the cam Ive never seen one on my Comp, Crane or Elgin.

My custom cam from camcraft also doesnt have any numbers on it.

Anyone who wants to know exactly what a cam is can send it to Charles at camcraft a sponsor of this site for 30 bucks..

Racer X
Member
posted November 12, 2004 05:55 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Racer X:
Engineman, where are you located in North Texas?

I'm around Greenville Tx.


ford5
Member
posted November 13, 2004 04:45 AM
better yet........get yourself an engraving pencil, and put whatever on the cam, that would be sure to mess them up!
most large machine shops have a cam doctor anyway.you will only fool the fools.


sleepy 1h
Member
posted November 13, 2004 09:50 AM
Thats right you don't need a cam number if you know what your doing. Hey engineman send me a cam with no numbers and I'll tell you everything about it, and I'll tell you what it will work in. People don't know how critical it is WHEN the valves open and close,they just want to know duration and lift. And I never keep a secret from the owner of the engine,If you do you'll probably be looking for new customers.sleepy


streetstock82
Member
posted November 13, 2004 05:42 PM
Hey engineman, Does that guy in texas claim the motors that you build? I'm along ways from you so Im not familiar with your work but you seem to be knowledgable and genuinly interested in your customers work. It's hard to find a good engine shop and to have some D*** steal your thunder, I do think I'd be left with no choice but to kick his A**!!!!!!!!! We run a small engine assembly business but we can't do alot of our own machining. We don't have any trouble with any secret things around here. But if one of our engines get claimed by some moron who's trying to start something, A group of attitude adjusters are usually waiting for this person or persons on the way out.


engineman
Member
posted November 15, 2004 05:49 AM

sleepy youre right, but youre gonna to have to do a little work to find out what it is, and thats the whole point,to make it just a little bit of a "Pain" for someone to find out.

Hey Sleepy,Ive read some of your posts and you seem pretty sharp,and I bet you have your own camshaft ideas that work really good for you, and if "Joe Claimer" claims one of your engines,dont you want him to at least have to work a little or pay someone to figure it out?
thats all I'm saying.


And let me "re phrase" what I meant when I said I have 2 grinds I dont tell the customer what they are...what I meant was.. I dont give them any grind numbers or lobe numbers...I do tell them the basics of the cam...lobe lift,Valve lift,lash,& seat to seat Dur. but thats all I give them...it's on the build sheet when they get the engine. But to be honest,no one has ever really asked. one guy asked what the LCA was one time,...but thats it.

I didnt come on this Board to fight and argue with anyone,I come on here to learn what I can, and be helpful when I can. There are some really sharp engine people on here,some great Ideas,some great information,and some great people posting, and I dont wanna cause trouble between me and you Sleepy, or anyone else over grinding cam numbers off.....
I'm really not trying to be "arrogant" ,I just answered the post.

------------------
Mark's Racing Engines

(903)883-0196

www.northtexasracing.com

engineman@northtexasracing.com


engineman
Member
posted November 15, 2004 06:33 AM
quote:
Originally posted by streetstock82:
Hey engineman, Does that guy in texas claim the motors that you build? .

He got 2 of mine in the past,and a few other engine builders stuff over the last few years.He doesnt even have a machine shop,he would just give a driver like $200.00(over the claim money)to claim a certin car.Then he would re-sell them as "freshened" claimer engines.He has pretty much put himself out of Business doing this sort of thing,or at least I havent heard anything about him in a year or so.

I just used Him as an example of one of the reasons I grind the numbers off,not that it would do any good anyway.

Ok...I'm done with this topic

------------------
Mark's Racing Engines

(903)883-0196

www.northtexasracing.com

engineman@northtexasracing.com


sleepy 1h
Member
posted November 15, 2004 09:19 AM
engineman, I wasn't trying to start anything, I just thought you through a challenge out there to see if anyone could figure out your cam selection. And NO, I wouldn't give anyone the satisfaction of claiming one of my engines. I'll just load up and race somewhere else. I'm from NW ohio and there are plenty of tracks around here and Ind.(UMP) not to much claiming around here though. I do get a lot of cams from Charlie Fisher, we do some different stuff, I like to make more torque then most people. No hard feelings here. sleepy

[This message has been edited by sleepy 1h (edited November 15, 2004).]

iowatoolman
Member
posted November 15, 2004 10:08 PM
just because you find out what the specs are to a cam doesn't mean that you can find a cam to those specs and get it to run the same some manufactures use different ramp profiles so just because you have the specs if you don't use the same manufac. your not getting the same thing

just a thought
i have a vacuum rule but i am not using the normal cam guys i have found ones that work that are larger lift and duration b/c of the ramp profile (no i am not going to share my secret)
drive hard or drive home