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Author Topic:   engine combination opinions
mavrik82
Member
posted August 22, 2004 04:08 AM
I run a mod and have a ton of experience building race motors, but all involved 4 barrel carbs. I will be putting together a street stock pick up for my kid this winter and the class calls for stock 2 barrel. Un fortunately the track promoter doesn't want to take the time to tech this class so his rules call only for stock appearing engines and thinks that the $500 claimer on them will police it. No one has claimed in years so these guys are spending a fortune on their motors, but I think most are doing it wrong.Alot of them are running 406 with dart heads and I think it's the wrong combo for a stock 2 barrel. My thoughts are a long rod large bore, short stroke motor with vortec heads and alot of compression.I'd love some opinions.


racer17j
Member
posted August 22, 2004 07:48 AM
we run the same basic rules in our stock car class and it's hard to beat the 406's.we have just about every combo you could think of running that class but the 400's are usually the front runners myself i'd like to try a 406 flat top with those new proline 58 cc heads


JohnG
Member
posted August 22, 2004 10:21 AM
alot of guys have good luck with midwest motorsports#8 on the 2 brl classes


iowatoolman
Member
posted August 28, 2004 04:05 AM
i agree wiht johnG
maybe you should come to the figure 8 races
i can walk away from the guys running 383's and 406's with my little old 327

don't do something just because everyone else is doing it i was told that my 327 wouldn't keep up well they had half of the story right they can't keep up with my 327

drive hard or drive home

[This message has been edited by iowatoolman (edited August 28, 2004).]

crc1124
Member
posted August 29, 2004 07:00 PM
As John Lingenfelter said " There's no substitute for cubic inches ".
Our streetstock rules are pretty much the same. We have guys running $15,000 engines to win $250. Crazy huh? Our points leader is running a 434 and it's legal because he uses a GM rocket block. When he's hooked up no one can touch him. It p***** me off because this is supposed to be for the budget racer. What a crock!


Sick&Twisted
Member
posted August 29, 2004 08:51 PM
i hope this will help you im the builder for mod70 in the central class mods im building a 3.0 in stroke 6.0 in rod .030 over 4.0in bore engine for his car and prduceind 854 horse on alk we are turning 9600rs and haveing a lot of fun in the prosses 14.0 comp is the key to making a lot of power. we are useing dart heads but was intending to use vortec heads that were ported out with 202 160s but he doent have a head restiction to slow us down i hope you all the luck.. if you have any questions drop me a line and ill do my best to help!!!!!!!!!!
hoyrod


2nd2none
Member
posted August 30, 2004 05:02 AM
LMAO, 854 HP on a 23* steel head 306 ci motor!!??!!

Dude, seriously, my 400 ci, brodix 18* CNC ported 14.8-1 comp late model motor made 785 HP.

You either need to have your dyno calibrated, or stop flubbing the numbers to make yourself look good because anyone, I mean ANYONE who believes their 306 makes 854 HP is smokin crack!

outlawstock17
Member
posted August 30, 2004 05:42 AM
well......my iron headed ford makes 8345 hp runnin' on whiskey! hiccup...


2nd2none
Member
posted August 30, 2004 07:50 AM
quote:
Originally posted by outlawstock17:
well......my iron headed ford makes 8345 hp runnin' on whiskey! hiccup...

is there much more torque running on whiskey?



outlawstock17
Member
posted August 30, 2004 08:17 AM
you have to have it jetted just right....otherwise your mouth might get your head torqued off by the burly guy your whiskey was talkin' to!


allan
Member
posted August 30, 2004 09:20 AM
I've heard the same from a reputable drag racing engine builder about running a 327 but circle track engines are alot different then drag engines. High rpm's at a quicker rate doesn't equal good torque. I'm no pro engine builder but the cycles that these engines run are completely different. If there was a secret to running these 327's I think I would have seen this somewhere else than this board. Most of the experienced circle track engine builders I read on this board all agree that the more cubic inches you can get from a small block the better.
For the amount of money you'll spend building one of these 327's you could build a strong high torque 383. There's an excellent book by John Lingenfelter that shows his actuall dyno test on various small block build ups and the one that came out on top was a 420 he built with monster torque at low rpms.
The reason most tracks make us run a 2bbl is because they use them a restrictor plate. Match the right cam to the carb. If built correctly throttle response can be a little quicker with a 2bbl.

[This message has been edited by crc1124 (edited August 30, 2004).]

iowatoolman
Member
posted August 30, 2004 11:18 PM
did you not see what i had posted i run a 327 and it out runs the 406's and 383's in my 2bbl class
my motor keeps pulling way past 7800 and starts pulling at about 2500

yea custom cam's are great
LOL

i have not dynoed the car but i am expecting about 250-275hp at the rear wheels

drive hard or drive home

p.s. yea my pit guys are drag racers too....

outlawstock17
Member
posted August 31, 2004 01:06 PM
toollessman, your superhuman driving ability makes it seem like your dinky 327 is more powerful than a 406....that and your superior set-up ability. a lack of oxygen to your brain can also make you faster on a figure 8.

is figure 8 real racing? i always thought of it as "t-bone destruction derby"...

where do you race at? i've got this lil ol' peterbilt i'd like to enter....see ya at the "X"...

iowatoolman
Member
posted August 31, 2004 04:24 PM
i have out run all the 406 and 383's then to really get at them i tell them i am running a 283 and i painted it PINK
and to you outlawstock17 you couldn't find the right turn so just keep looking for it

AND YES IT IS REAL RACING FOR REAL MEN

quote:
Originally posted by outlawstock17:
toollessman, your superhuman driving ability makes it seem like your dinky 327 is more powerful than a 406....that and your superior set-up ability. a lack of oxygen to your brain can also make you faster on a figure 8.

is figure 8 real racing? i always thought of it as "t-bone destruction derby"...

where do you race at? i've got this lil ol' peterbilt i'd like to enter....see ya at the "X"...




outlawstock17
Member
posted August 31, 2004 08:57 PM
toolman, have you actually contributed anything positive to this forum? most of the stuff i read that you post is either talkin' smack or using foul language. dude, this isn't a drag racing forum...


crc1124
Member
posted August 31, 2004 09:28 PM
Drag racers are always putting us "roundy round " guys down. It just shows how little they know. All the power in the world won't win races if you can't keep the tires on the ground. Setup is half the battle. If you 327 is winning races against 383's and 406's its because the bigger guys are having trouble keeping their wheel spin down. I guess you stomp on the gas pedal, get that "bbooowaaa" sound and take off.
Race your car on an oval and see what it can really do.

[This message has been edited by crc1124 (edited August 31, 2004).]

Blackgold
Member
posted August 31, 2004 09:28 PM
His 327 sure does run though



crc1124
Member
posted August 31, 2004 09:56 PM
Well the nice thing about a small block chevy is the ability to hide exactly what you are running.The guys at our track all claim they are running stock 350's or 355's. Chevy built a killer 302 also but for our type of racing bigger cube engines pull more torque with less horsepower at lower rpm's. And as far as the power curve issue, my 383's power comes in at 3000 rpm and pulls through to 8000 rpm. I run an ultralite crank,13.5:1 compression and H beam rods with a 2bbl. I've noticed a big difference with this crank. It's winds up very quick.
As far as the power curve, what kind of #s does a 327 put up? At 6500 rpm's what is the torque like and what's the horsepower? Compare those #'s to one of a long stroke 383 or 406.
As far as what track conditions are you don't change engines to suit the track, you change cross weight, tire pressure and stagger.

[This message has been edited by crc1124 (edited August 31, 2004).]

19J
Member
posted August 31, 2004 10:15 PM
Nascar is limited to a 358 cubic engine. If they were permitted to I believe they would run bigger. As far as the 2bbl issue goes, look at the engines in busch. They are basically the same engines as the cup but limited to a 390 cfm carb and they still turn lots of horsepower.
Nascar turns those engines that many rpm's because every hundredth of a second counts. And by the way did you EVER see or hear the great SMOKEY YUNICK say smaller is better? From everything I've ever read he liked the big cubic inches and he's known as the God of engine building.


mod70
unregistered
posted August 31, 2004 10:30 PM           
Don't forget, at one time the cupers were running 19:1 comp. They had to drop it to 12:1 and now are restricted to 9:1, but they're puting out more HP than ever.


iowatoolman
Member
posted August 31, 2004 10:48 PM
yea my how times have changed

better flowing heads intakes and better everything to make more power now

my wifes new 2004 monte ss supercharged puts out over 240 at the rear wheels out of a v6
compare that to the big blocks from yester year

lol

drive hard or drive home

crc1124
Member
posted August 31, 2004 10:49 PM
With modern technology what could they be running without the cubic inch restrictions ? Also think about it, they don't run a smaller engine on restrictor plate races. Their rules say 358 cubic inches max.
As a dirt track racer yourself you know that the more speed you carry into the corner and the torque coming off the corner is what usually wins races.
I don't want to argue with anyone but there's a reason 383's and 406's are the most popular choices. For the money it just seems like you would get the extra cubic engines. I built a 383 because of the ease of getting a 350 block. If I could I would like to build a 420. Now that's monster torque!


iowatoolman
Member
posted August 31, 2004 10:56 PM
my 327 is a large journal so it uses a standard 350 block

so it was the same as building a 350 but raps out faster
my pit guys think that i am nuts i have no problems rapping the thing out they said it would turn 9000 and it turns over thatand still pulls
i thought i wouldn't be happy changing from a 406 but now that i have it i haven't looked back except at the guys i am passing

drive hard or drive home

19J
Member
posted September 01, 2004 07:20 AM
why do all of not realize that i don't drag race i race figure 8's
and yes i have the springs setup pretty close to perfect for most nights
i am not saying that i beat them everytime but yes i can out run them most nights

and for the rest of you that say i don't contribute to this forum

i was trying to give people another view to this bigger is better idea that most of you are stuck on
trying to tell me that it is cheaper to build a 383 that a 327 your smoking crack
and talking smack

left turn then right turn to the checkered
for all of you that cannot find it

drive hard or drive home

zeroracing
Member
posted September 01, 2004 02:36 PM
i've heard alot of late models and big time mods run a slighly destroked 400. just a touch bigger than a 377. usually a 3.5 stroke 4.155 bore setup. i think it makes a 380? i ran a 377 for the first time this year and i was impressed. now were gonna try a 406.

luke

------------------
www.geocities.com/dirtstockcar5


mavrik82
Member
posted September 01, 2004 04:13 PM
Wow! When I posed the question I had know Idea it would turn into such a peeing match! Actually I wasn't even asking the big cube vs. small hi revving engine question. As a matter of fact, in 4 barrel racing I prefer to build huge cube, low revving motors. What my question pertained to was long rods. A 2 barrel, in my case GM Rochester,negates any benefit from big ports or valves, as a matter of fact they hurt. Long rods run better with small heads and carbs, this is just fact, and I can explain why if anyone wants to know. What I am interested in is if giving up some cubes in the form of stroke will be more than made up for by the better breathing with the long rods.If we had a cubic inch rule I would definely run a big bore, tiny crank and long rods. An added benefit to long rods is short little lightweight pistons. Guys, thanx for all the replies though!


modlite
Member
posted September 17, 2004 03:43 PM
I would search Smokey Yunicks archives. I remember reading a piece by him on just this subject. It was in "Circle Track" I believe. Believe it or not: He used the long rod theory all the way on a 2bbl intake restricted engine. I'm going to have to find that article myself and re read the thing. It sure brought up some very odd and unique aspects to retricted racing. How to cheat the rules and all............as he was known to be the best cheater of all time!!!! Anyone caught running fuel inside the roll cage............owns my vote!!!!!


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