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Author Topic:   400 small block
gonfast
Member
posted August 03, 2004 08:10 PM
I've been told when one is properly prepared, and all good lower end parts they can turn 7500 rpm, no higher.

Thats using splayed 4-bolt caps (billet), studs thru out, heads and mains. Drill & tap to plug the steam holes on the deck and red lock tite the head studs into the block.

I'm considering using block filler in one as well, but i havnt ever used it yet. I think the next engine we build will be done this way.

A friend of a friend etc, runs them this way in a non winged sprinter and has no trouble with them, but he stays under 7500 rpm's.

The kicker thou, is after all this is said and paid for, its almost cheaper to buy a Little M and call it a day.

19J
Member
posted August 04, 2004 10:00 AM
Right, you need all higher end lower end stuff, 4340 rods and crank & forged pistons.

Hoping to try the block filler on this next engine to see if it makes a difference. I will admit i think 7500 on a stk blk 400 is abit gamey. I dont think you would want to get it up there and hold it for long.

Using some lower end stuff, i would stay below 7000 rpm's and maybe below 68 to 6700.
Also a 420 is a 3.875 stroke and a .030 over bore to 4.155"


0six
Member
posted August 04, 2004 07:58 PM
7500 on a gocart might be allright but not in a 3500 lb car


chomme
Member
posted August 04, 2004 09:18 PM
just wanted to say I have a stock PONTAIC 400 in a 78 TRANS AM that I turn 6500 to 7500 with no problems....only add ons I have is a K&N filter....


quietmans
Member
posted August 07, 2004 04:43 AM
Plain stock that will turn 7500 no problem?????


pandora77us
Member
posted August 07, 2004 04:52 AM
motor has never been out of the car, I hit 7500 in 1st and 2nd gear. I dont keep it there for a long period......


that is stock everything,


quietmans
Member
posted August 07, 2004 05:02 AM
Have never run 400's but that is a good one,was put together right from the start and has been taken care of.


Ego Racing
Member
posted August 07, 2004 01:54 PM
Factory Tach or aftermarket? How long did it stay there? I have a 80 Z-28 that was shifting at almost 8000 rpm with a slightly modified motor. I put in an Autometer and it was shifting at 6700. Also in driving on the street and drags you do not hang the motor at the RPM's like an oval track car will. I launched a drag car at 8000 shifted a 8000 and went through the traps at 8000. During a burn out the throttle cable broke and according to the data recorder the engine lasted 18 seconds at that RPM under load. During the run it was getting there but it was a spike not staying there.


pandora77us
Member
posted August 07, 2004 09:43 PM
EGO, I have factory and a aftermarket that I use, but yes your right I dont let it seat at the high of a RPM for very long, just short periods....if you put this motor in a dirt car, and let it run for long periods at 7 or 8k then I do beleive it would go boom, in a race maybe be lucky to get 2 races out of it....I dont do much drag racing, just when the kids who have those imports....want to race...


Ego Racing
Member
posted August 10, 2004 07:25 PM
Imports are fun! I have a friend who has a Chevette with a 2.7litre IORN DUKE with a turbo that is at 880hp at the rear wheels with pump gas and can run more boost with racing fuel it is upto 1000hp, The imports run and hide when he comes out.


Rich1
Member
posted September 18, 2004 02:19 PM
I have ran quite a few 400's
blow up point on stock is around 6800
you can turn higher & may get away with it
for awhile but we all know the initial end.
with good rods,crank & pistons I turn 7000-7200 with no problems.I also run the royal purple synthetic oil with alcohol & I have
never seen the oil milky.


M1
Member
posted September 18, 2004 03:59 PM
too bad that pontiac has a OLDSMOBILE engine in it.......


iowatoolman
Member
posted September 19, 2004 01:04 AM
i have one that has a stock crank, eagle rods and hyper pistons tht turned 7500 every night and i ran it to 8300 and it still runs great i took the pistons out to put total seal rings in it and still looks new

drive hard or drive home

sleepy 1h
Member
posted September 19, 2004 08:43 AM
19J, I'll take that 10.00 because I turn mine 82 to 8400 every race. 377ci,Splayed billet caps,4340 crank,crower billet rods,wiseco pistons,and the best balance job money can buy. and its all roller.607hp on the dyno. Sleepy


sleepy 1h
Member
posted September 19, 2004 08:46 AM
19J, I'll take that 10.00 because I turn mine 82 to 8400 every race. 377ci,Splayed billet caps,4340 crank,crower billet rods,wiseco pistons,and the best balance job money can buy. and its all roller.607hp on the dyno. Sleepy


19J
Member
posted September 20, 2004 10:32 AM
okay sleepy.....if you insist, i'll give you ten bucks for it...


eaton89
Member
posted September 20, 2004 08:59 PM
Ok, I'm thinking the same thing for next year. Tight budget. 400 block, 30 over, hyper pistons (around 10 to 10.5 comp), stock 5.7 rods, stock cast crank all balanced. Can I turn this 6200 to 6500 night after night. What about same componits only a 377.


sleepy 1h
Member
posted September 21, 2004 04:04 AM
OK, If you want to talk stock. I have a 406 with Ohio cast pistons, stock crank,stock 5.7 rods w/arp bolts, it is how ever a solid cam motor.Once again great balance job. I turn it 74 to 7600 rpm with no problem.Oh yea, stock 2 bolt main block (817). Its all in the balance job. Sleepy


iowatoolman
Member
posted September 21, 2004 09:40 PM
why are so many guys SCARED OR RPM'S
man if you are worried about it blowing at 7000 than you didn't do something right
and you need to get into another hobby

drive hard or drive home
and wind it as tight as it will go and if it blows then get a new one LOL


dluna
Member
posted September 22, 2004 07:41 AM
I'm scared cause I'm living in reality... LOL!


DirtFreak08
Member
posted September 22, 2004 06:17 PM
A 406 will give you more torque,not necessarily more horsepower. If you run a heavier car(stockcar) you will need more torque,because you need more rear % to get off the corner.I run a modified,so I don't necessarily need the torque but yet can use more horsepower, I have my motors camed so they keep making horsepower up to 8400. I ran a stockcar for 5 years and found out the hard way that in order to win where I'm at, you needed a torque motor and over 60% rear, we also run street tires.In order to get 60 or better,your car ended up weighing 3300lbs and the extra torque from the 406 (or bigger) done the trick.Just my experience. sleepy


DirtFreak08
Member
posted September 23, 2004 01:06 PM
quote:
The old motor would get me to mid pack in the feature, but who wants to be there, I'm ready for the front and that is why I went with the 406. Will it get me there?[/B]


A motor wont necessarily win you races. YOU must stand back and HONESTLY ask yourself, is my car setup and being driven to its maximum? Then you must look at the car itself and see if its as advanced as the guys who run up front. You could build a 800 HP late model motor and put it in but if the setup is off, inability by the driver or the car just not good enough to run up front, it wont run up front.

What makes a racecar fast is it's and the drivers ability to make it through the corner, not how much motor you got to get it down the straight.....thats for drag racing.

I dont mean to sound like an a$$ but people believe if they had more motor than they will automatically start winning races. Sometimes that is true, probably 95% of the time it isnt.

iowatoolman
Member
posted September 23, 2004 08:44 PM
remember that all racing has something from another racing type

straight aways are the drag track of circle track
and you should set up your car to launch down the straights like a drag car and corner like an indy car that is the only way to go fast and win
if your car launchs like a passat and corners like a van you'll never be in the winners circle

oh luck and having good parts also plays into the equation too....
you can't win sitting along the sidelines broke

drive hard or drive home

eaton89
Member
posted September 23, 2004 08:54 PM
The guys in my class all run 383 and 406's except me. I run with them most nights with my 355 and its got stock bottom end parts with a flat top cast piston and good heads solid cam. I run this motor from 6000 to 7100rpms this year playing with gear tell I settled on 6400. Comes out of the corner hard. Some night when the track was cool(Cool night) and stayed tacky all night I could really tell the difference. I was really down on power. I could only get 5600 on the straights when the track was like it was. Most nights it gets really dry slick. See alot of tire smoke on those night. Everyone was hooking up and leaving me on the straights. I could run the corners hard but was giving a little in every straight. Some of these guys have way to much motor. But I think I could use a little more tork for those night. I run 51% rear and I dont spin very much. I see alot of other cars very loose when on the throttle. Wich is good for me. I finished the year 2nd in points but I could use a little more power mostly torque. I think a mildly bilt 406 would be the answer just because I think I could build one cheeper than a 383 do to the fact I already have some parts.


sleepy 1h
Member
posted September 24, 2004 07:18 AM
2nd2none, I take it you have never won any features. If your going to give racing advice,at least give it in a positive manner.Some racers on here are looking for solid advice, because they maybe they're strugling in a certain area and need that little help from someone who has been there done that. And yes bigger motors do help,and the percentage is probably like 80% that they do help. DirtFreak08, Think of you car as a pickup truck going through the mud,If you don't get weight in the back, all you do is spin tires. That is how it was taught to me by the all time stockcar feature winner at ELDORA and Limaland in ohio. sleepy


Kromulous
Member
posted September 24, 2004 08:10 AM
Were looking into building a 434, 400 block with a 4.00 stroke crank. Torque curves are monsterous, and the rpm's are relatively low around 6400 peak, and about 580 ft-lbs tork at 4000 or so. Thats with a solid lift cam, and about 12 to 1 compression. Asuming its legal for your class, not sure.

Planning on running a series 9000 steel crank, splayed billet caps, scat 4340 I-Beams & Hyper pistons at about 12 to 1. Rotating assembly and block work should cost less than 2 grand when all done and should be good for a couple years.

Anyone see any flaws here?

Also 2nd2none's advice i thought was solid. So true for alot things


[This message has been edited by Kromulous (edited September 24, 2004).]

dirtbuster
Member
posted September 24, 2004 08:20 AM
eaton 89 what class is this in?


What 2ndnone said is right. You have to have a well handling car to win races its not all motor. Now that doesnt mean you can throw in a junkyard stocker but if you have an average motor for the class and concentrate on cornering you will be able to keep up with the so called big hogs. The faster you can get through the corner the faster you can come off and thats what its all about, keeping momentum.


sleepy 1h
Member
posted September 24, 2004 08:52 AM
I'm not saying you that you don't need a well handling car. But you have to assume that so does the rest of the field,so any little edge you can get will help. Not to mention luck,which plays the biggest role in racing. Kromulous,sounds like a good plan most of the guys around here run the 434, I would say they account for all but 2 wins this year,but there again it depends on rules. sleepy


klw45black
Member
posted September 24, 2004 10:04 AM
Handling of the car & the drivers ability to handle what he's got wins allot of races, no question. Give a driver & car that has those things in order & give him a killer motor and you just stepped up a bunch. Regaurdless of the parts going in an engine, it has to be assembled with a ton of attention to details that most guys, unaware will over look. If you could rewind so to speak back to the blown engines assembly, most times, one of these details was over looked & the head scratching begins. How many of us have heard of some "out of town car" show up & had this so called big gun, outright illegal engine in it & the pits were buzzin' that all hells about to break loose, until the 1st heat & the guy can't keep it on the track or is just a pin ball out there.


juliaferrell
Member
posted September 24, 2004 10:25 AM
My cop friend of mine jugs gunned 3 of my buddies cars........1 friend,track champ, many feature wins has 75 less hp and 50 less ft pounds of torque *dyno proven* than the other two.........he nearly laps them in a 15 lap feature. *has some nights.* Shooting at 3 points: IN, MIDDLE, OFF he is an average of 30mph faster through the corner!!!! All driver and setup!! And I might add he has 1/4 the money in his car than the other two.......

You could have heard a pin drop in the room when we dyno'd the engines............LOL

DirtFreak08
Member
posted September 24, 2004 12:01 PM
Sleepy, go look through the photo album for my car, there is a pic taken after winning the A feature, so yeah I have won A features and that wasn't the only one....just the only one where they took a photo.


I dont get on here slamming people, I never have and never will. I merely stated that bigger motors wont necessarily win you races. If Dirtfreak08 honestly believes his car is as fast as it is ever going to get then yeah its time to step up the motor program. Alot of rookies get on here and believe if they had a larger motor than they will start winning races when in actuality it may slow them down as a more torqed up motor takes a little softer foot to keep from blowin the tires off.


sleepy 1h
Member
posted September 24, 2004 11:44 PM
2nd2none,I'm not slaming you. I was just tring to get the point across that some people on here are at the end of their rope,and need help badly. There are hose exceptional drivers that could drive pinto in a late model race and still get a top5 but most beginner level racing everybody needs a little bit of good advice.If he thinks he has gotten everything out of his car with the engine he has,then I will give some pointers on moving on to a bigger cubic inch motor.Again not to slam you but unless you crossed the finish line on your head and torn all to heck,I didn't see any feature win pictures on your site. sleepy


2nd2none
Member
posted September 25, 2004 05:46 AM
Ok, If you're so interested in seeing the photo its uploaded on my site. Or better yet, here's the direct link.
http://jimmiehobbsracing.com/HRPwin.jpg




sleepy 1h
Member
posted September 25, 2004 08:42 AM
Congrads from a fellow guardsman on the win. I was going off your web sight. Like I said not trying to slam you,I know Wins are tough to get in mods. sleepy (stuck in kosovo)


Xtrem4U
Member
posted September 26, 2004 09:50 AM
OK my 2 cents! I have a good friend with a Super Late Model, has a prof built , to the limit motor, It was about 25,000 for the complete thing carb to pan with the dry sump system and ignition. 430ci with aluminum heads. Over 800 hp on the dyno sheets and the torque band was as flat as a ruler.
The car was incredibly fast when the track was tacky, we were running gears in the mid 5's when everyone else was in the mid to low 6's. He would win heat races at will and never had much of a problem doing it (Lord knows I saw his bumper more than I care to remember), but he never won a feature. As the track dried or even whent black I would drive around him in the corner or even on the end of the straight.
After one race he called me on sunday and I went over and he was looking at metal in his oil filter. We pulled the motor and got it ready to send in for freshining. He had blown his other motor while waiting for this one so he had no motor to run. I lent him one of our "CLAIMER" motors for our modified. 355ci, flattop pistons, solid lift cam and a scat cast steel rrank with 6 inch rods and 462 heads (202/175). We pulled his drysump stuff out and got our motor in with his spare 4bbl alcky carb and hooked it up.
That weekend we changed gears after the practice laps. He finished behind me in the feature and we were joking about it, in the feature the track was dry as usual. They threw tha green and he passed me comming out like I killed the motor. I never saw him again. He won the feature, he also won the next two weeks with our motor as he was building his new motor. With the new one he has won 3 more time this year and has run good in the heats also, it is a 307 block with a 400 crank.
He said he can drive the car now and is not worried about burning the tires off after 10 laps. He can also get on the throttle earlier and drive the car and not baby it out of the corner. He said he is done with the big $$$ motors.
His big motor is now in his wifes 32 coupe they are building.


2nd2none
Member
posted September 26, 2004 09:35 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Xtrem4U:
2nd2none- nice lookin' pit crew!


And your point is?



Ego Racing
Member
posted September 27, 2004 07:09 AM
A big HP big $$$ motor is not always the best thing. If it is to much motor to drive you are not going to get anywhere.


Xtrem4U
Member
posted September 27, 2004 07:45 AM
2nd2none- jus' a compliment!


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