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Author Topic:   ? for steve or others.
fast_crew
Member
posted March 05, 2004 06:02 PM
Q? is concerning rings and cylinder honing. rings used during assembly where speedpro moly claimer's Motor has about 300-350 1/2 mi. laps on it, cyls look pretty good very little or no ridge cross hatch is still ok. Rings look ok have not measured ring gap yet. What are your thougts rering or no. and if so should we rehone or no.What would you recomend for ring gaps SRP pistons 4.040 bore 7000rpms

Thanks alot josh K.

cornerstone33
Member
posted March 05, 2004 08:00 PM
It's always a recommended to replace the rings when freshening a race engine. That being said, it is very difficult to get new rings to seal in a "used" bore. I would recommend having a reputable machine shop power hone and wash the block for you. Not a bad idea to check out the rest of it either----align bore, crank, rods, heads, mic pistons. Concering the ring end gap, you should follow the ring manufacture's spec for your application. God Bless U


p.s. I'm an ASE cert. master machinist.


sdhnc29
Member
posted March 05, 2004 09:46 PM
Hey Josh,

With that many laps on the rings, and the simple fact that you have the engine apart, I'd replace the rings. As for re-honing the block, do not do this if the bore's are still in good condition as you describe. Provided your bore was finished originally with the correct stones, and giving you the proper finish. Molly ring's do not like a rough bore, i.e. glaze breaking stones. Provided all look's ok with the bores, then there is absolutely no reason to re-hone the block and add extra clearance that is not needed. This is the nice part about molly ring's today, they are not like the old cast rings or even the molly rings produced years ago.

With the SRP pistons and Speed-Pro rings, you will want .021" top ring gap, and .023" second ring gap.

Steve

------------------
Hendren Racing Engines
Rutherfordton , NC
(828)286-0780
Check out my other business at www.solemnvow.com A special thanks to jammin for the awesome job he has done for me on this site!!


hamer36
Member
posted March 06, 2004 09:33 PM
Steve
How about those total seal top rings? I just tore my 406 down and the end gap only opened 2-3 thou. I wonder if a guy could reuse them cause they cost $200/set. Oil rails show no ware(still rounded)Your thoughts? Ever dyno compare these to conventional molys? THX


fast_crew
Member
posted March 07, 2004 08:43 AM
Steve. what would have been the proper stone grit when the cylinders were honed initially.
I will ask the machine shop what they used.
Thanks josh K.


Xtreme12x
Member
posted March 07, 2004 09:58 AM
its always safe to hit the cylinders with a 320 grit flex hone a hone is like 30 bux maybe cheaper it'll last you forever, just take and clean up the cylinders, it wont remove much if any material.... just hone it till it looks new...


sdhnc29
Member
posted March 08, 2004 08:07 AM
fast_crew,

We finish with a 400 grit stone. This is as fine as we will use on a circle track engine.

hamer36,

I've got no use for Total-Seal rings. Yes we have dyno tested both the Total-Seal and the conventional back cut molly ring. Our test's showed when measuring blow-bye at full load, the conventional ring that was gapped properly had a little less blow-bye. The Total-Seal will show a better leak down test, which is something the average guy will be impressed with. On the engine that we tested, there was a 15hp loss with the Total-Seal. The main problem with the Total-Seal is the simple fact that the second ring is no longer a "s****er", but is turned into a compression ring. In order to do this, the second ring is a VERY high tension ring, and a HP loser. Now........in testing the conventional 1/16-1/16-3/16 back cut ring pack vs. the .043"-.043"-3mm ring pack with lateral gas ports in the pistons, we have found an additional 20hp on our all aluminum SB2.2 engines. We have been using this particular ring pack and piston combo for about 5 years now. The average guy would not think of piston rings as being a HP gain, but believe me.......they are! The small ring pack with lateral gas ports in the pistons is brilliant combo. The ring's themselves have virtually no tension. So when they are not loaded by compression gasses in the chamber, they are unloaded at every other time during the cycle. This eliminates a tremendous amount of friction, and increases HP. The life span of this ring also improves, provided the engine is taken care of, no dirt inside etc. The facts about the Total-Seals, and the advances in ring tech, are one reason why you will never find a Total-Seal ring in any Cup engine, or engine produced by an engine builder who is on top of current technology.

Steve

------------------
Hendren Racing Engines
Rutherfordton , NC
(828)286-0780
Check out my other business at www.solemnvow.com A special thanks to jammin for the awesome job he has done for me on this site!!


racerman707
Member
posted March 08, 2004 09:42 AM
Steve...I run a 2300 ford with wiseco pistons and sealed power rings we got from race engineering.The problem we have is you can see blow by coming from the vent on the valve cover.Is this normal for those rings and if so can I run another ring that would not do this?The points champion from last year won 5 races and is a good friend of mine and he said his engine does the same thing.I know its not a small block but any suggestions would help us out GREATLY!Seems like no one around here knows whats up.


sdhnc29
Member
posted March 08, 2004 10:44 AM
The most common problem with what your describing occurs from block's that were not finish honed using a torque plate. If a torque plate was not used, the bore will not be round at the top with the head bolted down. You can see this problem when you take the head off. You will see shiny marks running down the cylinder wall's for about 2", exactly in line with each of the 4 head bolt holes. The bore is, in sense, square at the top. The thinner the cylinder wall, and the higher the head bolt/stud torque, the greater the problem is. It is also common to have this problem if the block was finished with a torque plate, using head bolt's, and then the engine was assembled with head stud's. Head stud's will have more clamping pressure, and distort the cylinder wall differently than a head bolt.

If this is the cause of your blow-bye problem, then the only cure will be to have the block honed again with torque plates. You will need to also go to your next oversize to do this, or start with a different block.

Steve

------------------
Hendren Racing Engines
Rutherfordton , NC
(828)286-0780
Check out my other business at www.solemnvow.com A special thanks to jammin for the awesome job he has done for me on this site!!


racerman707
Member
posted March 08, 2004 01:24 PM
I have seen the marks youre talking about.I'll have to find a new machinist because he said he uses a plate but have heard otherwise.Thanks for the info,YOU ARE THE MAN !!!!!!!!!!!


BIGG C
Member
posted March 09, 2004 03:07 PM
Canyou explain further about the lateral gas ports? How is this done and what size drill do you use? Have heard about this before, but was not explained in detail. Thanks BIGG C


sdhnc29
Member
posted March 10, 2004 08:24 AM
Yes no problem. First of all there is 2 common types of gas porting. First and most common to drag race engines is "vertical gas porting". This is a series of hole's that come from the top of the piston into the top ring land. This type of gas porting is primarily for NOS, blown, and turbo applications where the top ring must be loaded extremely hard. The second type of gas porting is what we have been talking about, "lateral gas porting". This is a series of about 8 small half moon shaped holes that start above the top ring land and extend into the ring land on the side of each piston. This can not be done with a drill. It must done with an end-mill. Lateral gas porting is what you will find in circle track applications.

The gas port's will allow you to run an extremely low tension piston ring. In the case of our engines, we use the .043"-.043"-3mm ring pack. When assembling an engine with this combo, you can install each piston and push it down the bore with one finger. With all of the pistons in the engine, you can turn the engine over by grabbing the damper with your hands, and simply rotating in one direction or the other.

At any time, other than the compression stroke, the top ring has no load. On the compression stroke, the gas porting allows combustion gas to enter the gas ports, go behind the ring, and load the ring against the cylinder wall. So you end up with the best of both worlds, a ring that is loaded consistently and only once per cycle, and tremendous reduction in friction. All of this equals HP and torque gain.

I would not advise doing this to a std. 1/16-1/16-3/16 ring pack, unless you are drag racing and running NOS, a turbo, or have a blower. With any of the larger, higher tension rings in a circle track application, this would add more tension yet, and defeat the purpose.

Hope that helps,
Steve

------------------
Hendren Racing Engines
Rutherfordton , NC
(828)286-0780
Check out my other business at www.solemnvow.com A special thanks to jammin for the awesome job he has done for me on this site!!


racerman707
Member
posted March 11, 2004 07:58 AM
This man knows his stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



xx RACER 96
Member
posted March 13, 2004 01:37 AM
Sorry, I was referring to the gapless second ring in my statements above. I have not bothered to test the gapless top ring, and I really don't have a reason to with the current ring packages that we are using. The gapless top will still have more drag that our current ring combo's.

Yes the gas porting and ring combo that I mentioned works great with wet sump engines as well. An evac system is not necessary to use this ring and piston package.

Steve

------------------
Hendren Racing Engines
Rutherfordton , NC
(828)286-0780
Check out my other business at www.solemnvow.com A special thanks to jammin for the awesome job he has done for me on this site!!


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