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Author Topic:   crate engines??
Monte
Member
posted December 10, 2003 09:56 PM
The wizards at our local track have brought up the possibility of mandating a crate engine for our modified class. My question to you all is: has anyone ever raced at a track that has this rule?? if so, was it successful? how was the racing now that everyone has exactly the same motor?? Pro's/cons???? any insight to these questions would be appreciated.. Thanks


zeroracing
Member
posted December 10, 2003 11:02 PM
When 'crate' engines are mandated around here, is the same day that my 22 year career in racing will be done!
ford5


outlawstock17
Member
posted December 11, 2003 07:18 AM
i heard that ford5......racing ain't just about who's the best driver.....it's also about who can build the best hotrod!


irace74
Member
posted December 11, 2003 07:40 AM
What is so dumb about crate motors? The ASA experience should be on everyone's mind. With an appropriate crate program, a local builder will be certified by the crate manufacturer to freshen the motors and do major repairs. We as racers have priced ourselves out of competition. There is no way that a guy can build a stock 350 with reliable parts and any machine work for $650 claims. If you want something that has a little more life in it and you put in forged pistons good rods and a steel crank, well there goes po$2500 and god forbid you have to buy a set of heads, there goes another $800 to 1000 if you just bolt them on. A spec motor would allow for equal racing, the best setup and carburation guy will win and oh by the way, running 11 or 12:1 compression would allow the motors to live for a good long time. Let's face it for the $500 to $800 weekly purses that promotors are willing to pay, a $ 4000.00 motor that everyone runs would make racing less expensive and more competative. Further, if it is a slick track, I don't think that the speed will decrease at all. If the track is really doing this deal it sounds to me that they are trying make racing competative and affordable for everyone. By the way it will kill the use of traction control and other performance enhancing tricks that are comming online rapidly.


dirtrace
unregistered
posted December 11, 2003 08:46 AM           
1. new crate motor 3000-4500 race ready with intake, pan etc.

2. run it all season, and sell it for 2000-3000 at the end of the season.

3. your engine cost all season was 1000.00.

4. irwindale calif is on thier 4-5th year of a roller crate motor, they have had 3 failures all knowingly over reving them.




superdave
Member
posted December 11, 2003 09:16 AM
The people that don't like crate engines are ones that already own engines and parts or aren't willing to test their talent behind the wheel of a car with an identical engine. A GM crate engine is a good idea for a class starting from scratch. The GM engines have been proven and yes the racing is rougher because the cars are closer together. There is a little entertainment value in that sometimes.

The down side is you have few choices and that's tough for people to swallow even if it's the right thing to do.

Good luck,
Superdave


dirtbuster
Member
posted December 11, 2003 09:17 AM
So what happends when the local 'certified' builder comes up with a way to squeeze a little more out of these motors but it costs a little more. People will start paying, then they find another way but again it costs you. Before you know it youve doubled your cost. Personally i think the better route is to put more rules in place and actually have someone to enforce them. Still allow any combination but lets say go to 12:1 max compression, or smaller carb, or have a max cid. That alows the racer to build whatever they want yet starts to restrict the playing field a little. You dont have 15:1 410 monsters in the same class as 12:1 355. I dotn know just an idea.

The races I have seen that required spec motors seemed a lot rougher. Drivers did more beating on each other to get to the front. Not necessarily anythign to do with motors but i think some of the drivers felt like they needed to do that because with all cars equal on power if they missed the setup a little that was their only chance to move anywhere.



zeroracing
Member
posted December 11, 2003 10:31 AM
THAT RULE HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH MONEY AND SOMEONES POCKETS !!!!


batesracing.com
Member
posted December 11, 2003 07:47 PM
I bought a car to race at I 70 just for that crate engine rule reason. I race sprints and we do are own engines, I wont have time to do up a fast reliable engine for our mod. The crate engine is $4,200 and make us concentrate on chassis, driving and spotter. I personaly like all the cars being equal, now its a drivers game. The track also said that a certain shop was contracted to do the rebuilds at $500 dollars unless it needs bored or crank turned its a win win situation. Now I dont have to work overtime to get the hi-dollar parts. I have talked to kelly wesfall of wesmar engines and backs the crate idea, now the rich guy wont buy the ultra lite crank and the poor guy stuck with the heavy stock crank.


madmodshoe
Member
posted December 11, 2003 08:35 PM
I like the theory of the crate engine. It will not change who wins on a weekly basis. The same people will win for the same reason that they win now. They are extremely competitive and refuse to settle for second place. I have a friend that during the early stages of his career he had little money to buy race parts. He shook alot of hands, begged, borrowed, and dealed his way into quality parts to put on his car so he could win. It was his desire that made him a winner, not his checkbook. He managed to borrow his way to the big leagues.
Winners are winners; the only rules that need to be made are the ones that determine how much MONEY you need to compete.


fastow
Member
posted December 11, 2003 11:09 PM
Thanks, 57 and 17, I just feel that real old-fashioned, old school, die-hard, dyed-in-the-wool racers like ourselves.........will always insist on being as much a part of the building and design of our OWN racing machines, its not just about the racing to us, but the actual competion of the process of creation, in other words its not just the 'kill' but the thrill of the chase........JMO ANYONE?

ford5 none of this rambling has anything to do with money or anything of a commercial nature it is just the nature of the beast, that i believe is the heart of the sport we all know and love..

dirtbuster
Member
posted December 12, 2003 08:21 AM
I would agree with mod57. Racing is a hobby and if you cant afford it then find another hobby, noone is making you keep racing or making you stay in a certain class. Money will always come into play because if they dont spend it on engines it will go elsewhere on the car. At our local track tehere are guys complaining about getting beat by big motors, but if you look at there tires they are 10-12 nights minimum, while the guys running up front put new tires on every couple weeks, it adds up but noone thinks about that they always got outmotored, and never outdriven.
There are different classes for a reason. Mods arent a beginner class either in talent or in cost. I know a few guys that have started in them but most of them will tell you they struggled for several years, and wished they would have started in a street stock etc. Thats where i think the sportmod class has its place but i dont necessarily agree with all the specs for it.


superdave
Member
posted December 12, 2003 08:55 AM
The other reason besides cost is parity. A competitive race is what the fans pay to see and when one guy wins too much or the features are by half a track they stop coming. When they stop coming you won't be racing unless it's for no purse.

Not all rules are made because of the racers. They are made for the fans and the track business too. Crate motors are proving themselves as reliable engines which means racers can come back and race every week. That means the promoter will have a consistant show for the fans to see which keeps us all racing or in my case employed.

Personally if I started racing again I would look for the crate motored spec class. I'm over 40 and have young kids and get no real thrill out building an engine anymore. I'd just buy them. I don't have 5 nights a week to work on a car. I just want to compete.

Good luck,
Superdave


Monte
Member
posted December 12, 2003 10:05 AM
thank you everyone for posting their thoughts and opinions on the crate motor. I can see the appeal to the crate motor with evening out the field and keeping costs down. But i agree with the gentlemen who brought up the points that racing is a hobby and if you can't afford that particular hobby, then you need to find something you can afford and still have fun at. Being a mopar fan, the crate motor package has zero appeal because of Dodge not having a crate motor deal out there and being forced to run "brand x" (chebbys) I don't know if our track will institute the crate motor deal but i do know there isn't any tracks around here that run the crate program and i feel our track will lose out on any out of towners wanting to come run here and having to buy a specific motor to be able to run our track only. It also makes it hard for us to go race and other tracks in a underpowered crate motor against the big engines at other tracks. Once again, thanks for your thoughts on this subject. Monte Bischoff


jonniet
Member
posted December 12, 2003 02:31 PM
I'm with ford 05...Back in the day a racer had to be inovative and figure out ways of getting the job done without pulling out his check book at every turn,I guess if you asked my wife she would say I pull out the check book a little to often ,he,he.....I prefer to build my own stuff and when I cant find the time ,I try to find good deals on used equipment ,over the years I have compiled a pretty good inventory of quality used parts that should last for quite some time.....the engine I have now is a five year old 355 with typicle mid range parts ,I race the same tracks that Monte runs and the cars we run against are some of the fastest in the country , even with an outdated D-W 6 and an old motor I know I was competative ......all I have ever done is change bearings a couple of times and replace an oil pump and shaft ,change the oil after every run and stay on top of mantanance ......I have enough parts compiled to build two more similar motors and probably have less than 2500 bucks in all the parts,oh and the D-W6 and the 355 came as a package turn key for 8 grand !...I know I probably have been lucky with the motor but it is going in my new car with nothing more than a bearing job and a new cam....this motor in a 300 lb. lighter car and much better suspension should get me to the front..........I know I have been rambling ,but my point is that peoples wilingness to go streight to the old check book instead of being willing to put in some good hard work and using that thing between our ears.....is what has driven up the cost of racing ! no crate engines! ....play your cards right and you can play with the big boys at half the cost.....JMHO...Jonnie "T"54


outlawstock17
Member
posted December 12, 2003 03:00 PM
i with ya fellas.....let 'em run crate engines if they want to......just don't force a crate engine on the rest of us that can build our own engines and save our money for other "go fast stuff"...

crates are for taking your stuff to the track, not for holding your race engine!

fastow
Member
posted December 12, 2003 03:57 PM
I run UMP in Oregon and northern California,and have ran right with some of the best drivers in the country and beaten some of them with other peoples so called wore out junk on my car....I dont want to get into a p!ssin match about what part of the country has the best drivers but I do know that a couple of guys I raced against faired very well against the best of the best in las vegas and Batesville this year and judging by their finishes I would say the top 10 guys I race against localy are right up there as far as good equipment and driving ability ......I am trying to say that although lots of people can afford to go out and buy the big priced stuff ,some of us are forced to find more creative ways of staying competitive ,in my expierience I have found that statments like, if you dont have x dollers for this or x dollars for that.... just are not true,I love this sport and I would hate to see a certain cost mandated(cost of crate motor=xxxxx)because there are alot of guys just like me who scrimp for this and save for that and run this used shock or that used motor or build their own chassis and I for one would find it hard to come up with the cash to plunk down all at once.....like I said before I love our sport ,it is my passion ,and I know first hand if you are passionate enough about anything you can make it happen!....there is no better feeling than knowing your carfull preperation and planning beat a guy with much newer more expensive and better funded stuff!.......and if you cant beat em I know there isnt any better seat in the house than one of the 20 or so that are out on the track durring the feature!.....what a rush !.....remember its hard to have fun when the wife is *****ing cause you spent the tax return money on the latest bells and whistles for the race car.


jlfastride
Member
posted December 14, 2003 09:18 PM
how bout this diff setups need diff engines so does that mean that the engine is part of the setup or not? i know a bunch of guy that spend double or triple on motors, run more gear than i do , blaze more tires than me. but i have more torque, i know this because i can jerk them all down the shoot . a little bit wet. but especially on the dry. you tell me take away my motor that is cheap with the high torque , low hp and then im using tires and motors. by the way i run ump on clay 1/4 to 1/2 mile 4 years. i beleive if you take away my d40's your taking my line if you take my motor your taking another part of my setup. im sure i could do with either/both being gone. that would sell more tires and motors. yeah you right i don't like the idea. by the way i bought 7 tires last year 1 motor and would have won 3 more races but i had parts failure in the last 4 laps of all . 2 axles and 1 u joint. still ended up 7th in pts at home track. even with those 3 dnf's. thank you jl


joeltjen
Member
posted December 14, 2003 10:14 PM
to me there is a big difference between crate motors and spec motors. crate motors don't belong in racing, they are what you end up with when you don't have qualified personnel to inspect an engine. spec motors on the other hand leave it up to the racer on what combination he wants or needs, but they do take some track officials with some knowledge about engines and a tear down rule to enforce them. if you build a spec motor you can put in as good of parts as you want for hp or longivity. with a crate engine you're really not sure what your getting and you can rest assured you paid too much for it. gees... crate engines and spec chassis... sounds like IROC to me.....BORING!!!


chapa73
Member
posted December 15, 2003 02:04 PM
I see the thoery behind a spec motor,to keep things fair and balanced,BUT I think that proper tech will give a fair and balanced feild.Im new with Mod racing,never ran run yet,putting it together for next year,but have ran Factory Stocks here in central Ok,wich is really close to a pro stock,direct drive,bouble pump gas carbs and such.Our rules state that we are to use stock crank,rods,with stock stroke,while 1/2 the guys out there are building motors with forged light wight cranks and what not.I wouldnt wanna have to pay for a crate motor since I spend less that 2,000 on my motors and can run with 5,000-10,000 motors on a regular basis.
But all that goes on becouse on lazy tracks,and a crate engine just make it easer for a track and puts a little money in the pocket.
I think like anything,there are pro-cons to everything.If most of the tracks in an area ran the same crate engine,its would work alittle better,but 1 track in an area restricts you to one track.

I think that strick proper tech will do more.have good rules,CID rule,and inforce them to everyone,wich is sometimes the biggest problem with tracks.

By the way,I love the furom,I have learned an extreme about mod racing,All this info has helped us out greatly in the building of our mod.Thanks

Glen

Wauge28
Member
posted December 17, 2003 11:35 PM
ell, here is a story to help make it clear...money wins. I was the rookie of the year at a very competitive track and the next year won the track championship. I was very fortunate enough to have a job which basically made money no object every night racing. I HAD THE BEST OF THE BEST...period! Two new tires every night along with all the HP you could want. I did very well and won my fair share of races. The next year, I lost my job with the stock market falling and now have a very average job. I have struggles to keep up with the big boys. I consider myself an above average driver but I feel I have been "out dollared" lately.

So does the rule of "if you can't afford to race, you should find a new hobby" apply to me as well? I still make above average money and struggle to keep up with the Jones'. The crate motor will allow us that already have the race bug to continue to race but are not fortunate to continue racing if the cost continue to rise.

Bring your $ 2000 motor to my UMP track and I will waive as you are getting lapped. Not being cocky, just realistic. Blowing up a $ 3800 crate motor is much easier to deal with than losing a $ 15k motor. Spend 30k on 2 motors in one season and then come tell me your glad you track didn’t go with crate motors…

ford5
Member
posted December 18, 2003 05:55 AM
There is always some guy who is going to spend big money 30,000+ plus on his motor program, and still get beat by the guy who only spends 5,000 on his. The reason is what you know and how hard you apply yourself. I know this much. If you give me a crate motor, I and a bunch of other 'gearheads' that are around this racin' game will ALWAYS find a way to tweak that motor and get more out of it than you can. Call it creative cheating or whatever, but i can assure you it will happen...lol, this is not now, or ever gonna be a cheapo sport, I am not wealthy by any means, but i have survived and won, by ingenuity and perserverance.....that spirit is what keeps the heartbeat of this sport going strong. It cannot be beat down. Race for fun, learn as you go, be able to help yourself, as much as you can, tune in to this site, as it can teach you everything, there is alot of free knowledge here thanks to jammin.....JMO
ford5


NJantz
Member
posted December 18, 2003 06:58 AM
I know for a fact that there are guys out there that have beat the high dollar guys with their own used parts .....Wauge 28 knows of a guy at his own track that runs good equipment and at the end of the year sells his stuff for waaaaaay les than its worth....Wauge is right about being an above average driver,I think he is and I have learned alot by looking at his back bumper.I consider myself an average driver who has been able to stay on the lead lap and many times in the top five with way less equipment dollar wise ,I admit I have not won a main event with that old equipment but with some new stuff added next year and some freshend up old stuff I hope to be up front with about half of what the big dogs have invested........Oh by the way ,my wife and I always pull for Wauge 28 when Im not on the track,you wont find a smoother cleaner driver anywhere......Hey wauge,got any good deals on anything ?


jonniet
Member
posted December 18, 2003 04:04 PM
Wauge 28, hey I just read my post ,kinda sounded like a smart aleck .I didnt mean to sound that way.........To be honest the crate engine thing would probably be good if it was a brand new class and evryone had to start at the same place ,equipment wise.....but right now at this stage in my life it just dsnt work for me.....see ya in the tech line


Wauge28
Member
posted December 18, 2003 05:12 PM

Hey Johnny, I didn't read it as bad. I think most people do not understand that the crate engine is something that gets put into place slowly. It would be like a 4 year transition allowing time for the high dollar motors to wear out. There would be concessions like a weight penalty for non-crate motor cars and non-crate motor cars having to pull 3 plug wires or wear a blind fold while driving JK

I am not saying a crate motor is the way to go. There are as many pros as there are cons. In my opinion...our sport will have crate motors or spec motors EVERYWHERE soon. The cost are out of control and even IMCA can not control them.

Any way, I will get off my soap box. Like I said, don't get me wrong, there is nothing like stepping on 600 to 650 HP and holding on. Nothing like the 1200 RPM idle that thumps HARD. I am very unexcited about a 600 RPM idle in a race car that is ssmmoooottthh. But that $3000 dollars sound great!!

Good deals? I just sold my Smileys as a complete roller for $ 4500. Not bad for a 1 season car. I sold a triple disk clutch, throw out, clutch fork and hydraulic slave all for $ 200.00 I sold a BG Silver claw and throttle bypass for $ 300.00. I sold a Bert for $ 450.00. I still have a few things so e-mail me. I only listed the stuff above to show how dumb I am. My wife tells me I am great at paying top dollar and selling for half price…I still think I will make it up in quantity…
mwauge@charter.net

Thanks for the nice words. You are doing great out there and can't wait to race with you in Northern Cal.


irace74
Member
posted December 19, 2003 06:23 AM
I understand the reluctance of racers to give up an individually perceived advantage but, claims where racers police each other has proven not to work. As far as spec motors go, great idea but when purses are low because promotors are feeling a pinch do we believe for one second that they will spring for the equipment or the trained personnell required to tech motors? By the way would you want to buy new head gaskets each week and have your motor opened up in the dirt, not me. Logic would indicate that we as racers would like to have a program which is reliable and does not place us at a disadvantage against the competition. If a good spec motor program is instituted with sealed inspected internals (crate motor) is put in place then the need for claims or in the dirt inspections would not be necessary. I truely believe that great racing can be had with crate engines and that tif these types programs take off that the cost will go down for the initial purchase and for the racer to maintain a quality program over the year. By the way if an association goes into crate engines would it not be appropriate for them to have one at the track for lease or purchase should a motor fail? It could be possible since everryone has the same thing with carburation and ignition differences.


outlawstock17
Member
posted December 19, 2003 06:56 AM
the main problem with crate engines is some guys want to run a ford or a mopar. we all know that any crate engine program that gets started will be GM engines. seeing those taurus bodied chevrolets in ASA makes me flip the channel....


ford5
Member
posted December 20, 2003 05:55 AM
RightOn!! brother 17..........LMAO


orange2mod
Member
posted December 22, 2003 07:32 AM
After ten years involved in mod. racing I've never claimed or even thought of claiming a motor. But the more I think about it, the better it sounds as a cost effective way of racing. The rule was put in place to keep the cost of motors within reason. None of us wants to be labeled a chicken s_____, so we don't claim. But in the meantime there goes the money boys taking home the purse because we dont' want the label. I've got one of those big motors and I'll tell you that at my wages I'd leave it at home instead of chancing losing it in a claim.
As much as I hate the idea of it, use the claim rule to your advantage and stop the upward cycle.

------------------


fastow
Member
posted December 22, 2003 12:21 PM
crate engines? what are they thinkin? whats next speed limiters? 25mph max? no more mystery of what this guys runnin or what that guys runnin...wheres the fun in this? isn't part of racing on how fast you can get your car going? if i can't afford it i'd step down to a class i could afford.


Wauge28
Member
posted December 22, 2003 10:43 PM
Let me guess...Your 19 years old and daddy pays for your racing? Am I close?


fastow
Member
posted December 22, 2003 11:32 PM
19 yrs old, man that would be nice...your 11 yrs off so i don't think your close. my dad does help flip the bill if that makes it alittle better. mom also does..and if your thinkin were rollin in money your way off again.if we were i'd be in a late model.but i can't afford it so i run a mod.ya know like i said in my previous post...if ya can't afford it race a different class so thats what i do.


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