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Author Topic:   metric front clip position
backwoodsracer
Member
posted November 17, 2003 11:47 AM
what exactly r u calling a front clip?


backwoodsracer
Member
posted November 18, 2003 11:01 AM
Ok, Ill bite.

what do you think youll be changing by doing this??

the way your talking about doing it will move the lower a arms also.

rico 08
Member
posted November 18, 2003 06:20 PM
That would be so hard to get right i don't see how anyone would be able to do it,you may have seen a car with the clip replaced in a crash OR a older style frame(chevelle,monte etc)which has straighter flatter type frame horns(viewed from the side)under a metric body.


racer17j
Member
posted November 18, 2003 08:44 PM
i'm not seeing the point here? what exactly are you tring to "level" here. i'm a firm believer in the kiss concept this sounds a long ways from that.


backwoodsracer
Member
posted November 19, 2003 11:39 AM
We never tried this to raise ride height, but we would lower ride heights on asphalt stockers by welding a piece of tubing onto the lower a arm and pushing the ball joinnt up thru it. I don't see why that wouldn't work opposite tho. I'd be afraid of cutting the frame and tipping it down. For one you would have a time getting your camber #'s to work out and for two your may run into clearance problems with the fuel pump, the oil pan, ot the headers. Before I'd try anything like this I would exhaust all other means,,,,larger diameter tires, Dropped balljoints (heck use the screw in type and weld the sleeve on low) change mounting points for lower a frames, etc. What is it that you are attempting to achieve by raising the ride height?


66jj
Member
posted November 19, 2003 02:55 PM
doing what your suggesting will do nothing beneficial.

eljojos idea of ball joints in sleeves etc, also doesnt pan out. the ball jt center is still where all measurements concerning front end geometry are taken, you may lower a arm, or level a arm but the measurement is still taken from the bj center to the pivot pt, and that doesnt change no matter how long of a tube you put the ball joint in.

Its an easy mistake I have seen made over and over at all levels of racing.


lengthening the spindle, and or using longer ball joint studs would make changes to many things.


istock59
Member
posted November 19, 2003 03:02 PM
Funny you should mention that 66jj, I've had the same argument with other IMCA stockcar drivers. When they outlawed the tall upper BJs, a couple guys I know of put the short OEM upper in, but bolted them to the underside of the a-arm. Their reasoning was, it was nearly the same height as the tall ones! LOL...

I told them that it didn't make a difference, because the pivot point was still in the same location relative to the spindle center. But I couldn't convince them otherwise...

Now if you could move it, say 6", then you would change the curve that the joint follows. But anything less than 1" would be minor in my book.

[This message has been edited by istock59 (edited November 19, 2003).]

rico 08
Member
posted November 19, 2003 07:04 PM
I stock you just let out a secret,another way to do that is to use an old top cut off the ball joint complete with grease zerk and all so it looks stock,but i'd never do that


66jj
Member
posted November 19, 2003 07:51 PM
rico, what you just described changes nothing but the a arm angle as you look at it.

the angle that needs to change is from the bj center to the pivot pt. that is not changed when you even do your little secret.



rico 08
Member
posted November 19, 2003 08:37 PM
You're right,it has nothing to do with ride height,but it does change the camber gain in the arc that the wheel will travel,which is the point istock was relating to.


66jj
Member
posted November 19, 2003 09:01 PM
no it doesnt it changes nothing, think about it all measurements are taken from ball joint center to pivot center. the stuff in this case the a arm has nothing to do with it.

and thats not what he was refering to read his post again, he was saying people didnt get it and were wasting their time, probably the same as I am now...



backwoodsracer
Member
posted November 20, 2003 11:10 AM
your beating a dead horse. look around metrics are being raced all over as is.

sure you can make improvements but you need to understand all of the changes necessary.

if you dont have a bump steer gauge.

or havent measured every single pt of front suspension, and graphed it out to determine your roll center now, then any changes are shots in the dark.

rico 08
Member
posted November 20, 2003 04:24 PM
66jj you are only referring to roll center,you are absolutely right on that part,but the part i'm referring to is the positive camber gain metrics have that raising the a-arm on the spindle side will help,and it makes a huge difference,and has ZERO to do with the center of the bj,and that's all i'm going to say 'cause i'm too old to be in a pi$$ing contest.backwoods if you just race it as is you will only be as good as everyone else using stock production metric suspension.


Eljojo
Member
posted November 20, 2003 06:20 PM
66jj I wasn't talking about correcting the geometry, I was talking about changing the ride height. If you increase the distance from the bottom of the spring to the center of the spindle, you will reduce the ride height. The same is true in reverse. Yes you could use a shorter spring, but we had a 12" spring rule. Now if ole Backwoods wants tto raise the ride height and can't lengthen the spring, he can move the spindle closer to the lower a-arm and raise the car.

[This message has been edited by jammin (edited December 09, 2003).]

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