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Author Topic:   More Z-Link Questions
PEDDLER
Member
posted August 27, 2001 06:48 PM
About the time we think this blankety blank set up is working, something else jumps up to bite us in the behind.

This weekend our car was good (real good) on a tackey track. Then the feature got there and we stunk. We advanced from 2nd to 12th.
It seems that the panhard bar change we done (raised it from flat to 1 in up at the frame) caused the car to roll over so hard that we were unloading the left rear on exit making the car terrible hard to drive.

The rt rear is hooking harder like we wanted but the trade off is not worth it.

We have been told by several other drivers to increase our rt rear spring rate. We currently run a 200 left and a 250 right mounted on the swing arm.

We have a 225 and 300. Would this change be advatageous or are we just chasing ghosts.

Any help would be appreciated

The Peddler

MOD178
Member
posted August 27, 2001 09:22 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by PEDDLER:
About the time we think this blankety blank set up is working, something else jumps up to bite us in the behind.

This weekend our car was good (real good) on a tackey track. Then the feature got there and we stunk. We advanced from 2nd to 12th.
It seems that the panhard bar change we done (raised it from flat to 1 in up at the frame) caused the car to roll over so hard that we were unloading the left rear on exit making the car terrible hard to drive.

The rt rear is hooking harder like we wanted but the trade off is not worth it.

We have been told by several other drivers to increase our rt rear spring rate. We currently run a 200 left and a 250 right mounted on the swing arm.

We have a 225 and 300. Would this change be advatageous or are we just chasing ghosts.

Any help would be appreciated

The Peddler [/QUOT
Peddler, i beleive you would be happier if you would switch your rear springs around. This will tighten you up comming off the conner. I believe that with the way you have your springs and with raising your panhard bar your just making a looser condition as the track gets slicker.

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ALLEN HALDERMAN


PEDDLER
Member
posted September 06, 2001 06:46 PM
Allen you may be right, but from what I hear and see, the real fix is a three link.

Thanks
The Peddler


36k
Member
posted September 06, 2001 09:29 PM
I believe the 200 in the left rear was with the spring mounted on the housing and the 250 in the right rear was because it's on the swing arm.........that would explain the difference in spring rates from the "normal" package.

I personally believe the pan-bar change is letting the car roll to far and either the left rear shock is running out of travle pulling the left rear off the ground or if we are talking about a under-slung car it's the bottom tube pulling the left rear off the ground.

Peddler, let us know where each spring is mounted and if it's under-slung. We were having the same problem with our car the last few weeks, over the last few nights I have changed a few things. I haven't beeen to the track with the changes yet, so I can't tell you what the problem with our car was/is..........Jeff


eagleii
unregistered
posted September 09, 2001 05:45 AM           
Peddler,

I agree with AwkwardJeff, completely.

Is this a underslung car? Could be the left side is hitting the underslung and pulling the LR off the ground. Another possibility is that the rake of the panhard bar is acting like a "pole vault" and launching you over center and unloading the LR.

I have tried different rakes on the panhard bar. I have found that on EVERY chassis we have tried it on, if the panhard bar is 1 1/2 - 2" below the axle tube and level with the driver in the car, it works the best.

Check to see if it is hitting the feft side, first. Swing arms inherently need a little stiffer spring due to the leverage they have. We ended up having to run a 225 on the RR to keep the body roll in check and allow the panhard bar to do its job.

This works for me, but it may not work for others.

Jerry

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EagleII

[This message has been edited by eagleii (edited September 09, 2001).]

PEDDLER
Member
posted September 09, 2001 05:39 PM
I really appreciate all the replys.

Jeff: The car is a 2000 Smiley chassis built in Dallas Tx. It is an underslung car with both springs mounted on the swing arms. RT spring stright up with the left mounted at an angle toward the cars center.

Eagleii
We have checked to see if the axle is hitting the underslung tubing and really can't tell. We have about 2 1/2 in between the axle and lower tube. May not be enough.

I am considering lowering the pan hard bar by a 1/4 to a 1/2 in at the frame as a compromise.

THIS CAR WILL BE A 3 LINK NEXT YEAR.

A Z-Link with a lift bar with coil-over eliminators with a 5th coil a 5th coil shock and all the other monkey motion garbage is really over kill.

We have about six races left this year and I will keep all informed as to our, if you want to call it, progress.

Thanks again for all the replys
The Peddler


bbracer17
Member
posted September 09, 2001 09:48 PM
Peddler Iknow a couple guys that are running Smileys cars and they are very good on dryslick. I was just talking to one of the guys and he said Tom at smileys recommened adding a clamp bracket on the left rear and taking the spring off the left swingarm. He is running a 200 on the left and 250 on the right but the right is on the swingarm. Also ride height I beleive are more critical on a z-link because of the rear bar angles.


eagleii
unregistered
posted September 10, 2001 06:32 AM           
Peddler,

I talked to Russ last night for a couple of hours. I believe that there is not enough clearance between the axle tube and the underslung. 2 1/2" is not enough on swing arm cars. We use 5" of clearance on ours and swing arms DO need a lot of ride height if the rear link is not adjustable. We have several Smileys cars here in our area and I also agree with you that there is some overkill in what they sell you.

All of the Smileys cars that I have worked on, I have changed up the rear suspension and thrown away the lift bar and installed a torque absorber or spring bar. It made a dramitic improvement in the cars performance.

BBRacer17 is from my area and we race together occasionally. He knows Lawrence M. One of the first things Lawrence did to his Smileys was throw away the lift bar and put a Reese bar on it. He spanked us all with that set up a time or two. He went to a solid pull bar, but sold the car shortly thereafter. Even after he got his new Smileys car he had a lot of trouble getting it to work for him. But he finally made it fast. It's a shame he runs mostly asphalt now.

BBracer17 is also right about the clamped on set up on that particular chassis. Under acceleration the LR loads more quickly than the RR.

After talking to Russ, I agree that you guys had way to much wedge in the car and now that it is down to a managable level the car will respond better.

Don't loose too much sleep over it, though. After I talked to Russ last night, I figured out a way to put you guys in a new Eagle III for next season. Then you will only have me to blame if it won't go left, FAST. LOL

Jerry


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EagleII

[This message has been edited by eagleii (edited September 10, 2001).]

dirttrackracer
Member
posted September 10, 2001 04:32 PM
Eagleii,when you say to mount panhard bar 1 1/2 to 2 inches below the axle tube,do you mean that far below center of axle tube or bottom of axle tube?And does that apply to behind rear panhard bars?thanks


eagleii
unregistered
posted September 10, 2001 07:43 PM           
DirtTrackRacer,

Below the TUBE on the right side of the housing and level with the driver in the car. That is for panhard bars. I like to use a 22-23" panhard bar on all of my cars. It produces an quite a bit of body roll and side bite. I have had very good results on every car we have tried it on regardless of the chassis. It may not work for you, but it works for us.

Jerry


PEDDLER
Member
posted September 10, 2001 08:32 PM
Thanks Jerry.
Russ said he talked with you and was excited about the conversation. Will be at his shop Wednesday or Thursday and will go back over the ride heights.

I'm glad someone agrees with me about all the monkey motion B.S. I have always lived by the theory of K.I.S.S. (keep it simple stupid),and BTW I'm too old to loose to much sleep.

Thanks again.
Jim The Peddler


rockit
Member
posted September 10, 2001 11:13 PM
alright here goes peddler and i have been talking and we need to get togeter and look at the eagle. and work on it from their.not to sure what to do but i want to leave all thing open ..i think that it well be go for us to take a look at something different.their got to be more speed somewere.


eagleii
unregistered
posted September 11, 2001 07:01 AM           
PEDDLER,

Amen to that! Russ tells me we are pretty close to the same age. I guess it shows. Sometimes these young "gladiators" don't understand why us "old folks" want to keep it simple. Most of the times the most simple things work the best.

We have "been there and done that" with a lot less technology than what is available today. I remember the times when a stiff right front spring, and a lot of guts is all it took to go racing. My, my, how times have changed.

I'm with you PEDDLER, but we have to go along with the current technology or get left behind. We have to be careful or we will end up the Races's Old Folks Home. LOL

Maybe you and I should talk and leave Russ to just scratch his head! LOL

Jerry


eagleii
unregistered
posted September 11, 2001 07:15 AM           
All,

Everyone keep in mind that a Z-link car is a very fast car and VERY tunable as long as it is done right. You MUST be able to tune the rear link as well as the swing arm/trailing arm. Without adjustability in the links, you are stuck with whatever the builder thinks is right. Most of the time the rear link angle is set to an "average" position. Meaning that is good on an "average" track under "average" conditions. Someone please define what "average" is. I certainally don't know what it is. Race on the same track every night and it will be different every night. There is no "average".

Any suspension is basically worthless unless you can fine tune it. True adjustability is a MUST in any suspension.

Jerry

CUSTOMPERFORMANCE
Member
posted September 11, 2001 10:38 AM
jerry, i would like to add this as i have been reading this post. your only going to be as fast as you can be with what you understand. i have tryed 4 link, z link, swingarm and couldnt make them work for me personally. i use the 3 link , understand it and am alot faster than with the other. chances are if one has more adjustments than than they know what to DO WITH they arent going to be very fast. the other suspensions are fast for ONE who understands them.
richard


dirtslinger66
Member
posted September 11, 2001 09:12 PM
i have a z link and hate it there is no adjustment on the rear link except the lenght off the link. i can not get any bite



PEDDLER
Member
posted September 12, 2001 11:17 PM
Hi Jerry;
Just checked the car again, with driver we have between 3 1/2 and 3 3/4 clearance between the axle tube and underslung bar. Axle won't hit the bar because we run out of slider before [1/2 in}before it hits. If the car rolls to much with the spring change I'm going to lower the rake on the panhard bar a 1/2 in. Keep your fingers crossed.

This is all a compromise. Hopefully next week we'll have a bisquit type pull bar and get rid of the lift bar as a starter.

We'll let you know how the car worked.

The PEDDLER

[This message has been edited by PEDDLER (edited September 12, 2001).]

eagleii
unregistered
posted September 13, 2001 06:50 AM           
Custom Performance is right. You MUST understand and be comfortable with any suspension before it is fast for you.

As I said before, ADJUSTABILITY is the key to any rear suspension. A Z-Link is no different than a 4-Link. How would a 4-Link work if you could not adjust the upper & lower links? A Z-Link does you no good unless you can make vertical adjustments as well as length adjustments. If it is non-adjustable, you might as well run a 3-link.

Jerry


bbracer17
Member
posted September 13, 2001 09:06 PM
Peddler if you are running out of slider before the frame hits isn't that as bad as hitting the frame? I assume your sliders stop when over extended.


36k
Member
posted September 13, 2001 09:50 PM
BB you are right and 36K to answer your question. The car is rolling so much that we are,IMO, lifting the left rear. By increasing the spring rate we are limiting the amount of roll without, I hope, without reducing the bite.
Ya never know unless ya try.

God Bless America.
The Peddler


PEDDLER
Member
posted September 15, 2001 09:39 AM
Well here,s the results.

The car was quick last night, was not lifting the LR, and seemed to have plenty of foward bite.

We couldn,t keep away from the beat and bangers therefore we lost a tire rod and spindle in the heat, qualified through the "B" and started 23rd. Advanced to 12th at 10 laps and had the rt rear tire cut down.

Time to go home.

The changes that we made to the car did nothing but improve the way the car exited the corner. We still had the roll in the car to drive off the rt rear but not to the extent of lifting the LR. I still feel that a small panhard bar change would further enhance the exit.
Overall so far we are satisfied.

Thanks
The Peddler

[This message has been edited by PEDDLER (edited September 15, 2001).]

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