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Author Topic:   IMCA weight rule....
jammin
Administrator
posted March 30, 2001 10:50 PM
What is your take....
Track option to enforce a minimum weight limit of 2,450 pounds, after the race with driver in the car. NO TOLERANCE.




owracer
Member
posted March 30, 2001 11:43 PM
I think it should be mandatory.


Roadhzrd
Member
posted March 31, 2001 01:05 AM
I think it would help save some money. Seems like the less material something has the more it costs. Plus it might help get rid of some of those throw away chassis.


A2KY2K88
Member
posted March 31, 2001 02:10 AM
WOULD HELP KEEP THINGS EXCITING FOR THE FANS. IT WOULD EVEN OUT THE PLAYING FIELD A LITTLE MORE WHICH PUTS MORE EMPHASIS ON SET-UP AND DRIVING ABILITY. SHOULD BE MANDATORY.


awkwardjeff
Member
posted March 31, 2001 07:06 AM
I for one think every class should have a wieght rule. Even the sprint cars. I beleive this for a lot of different reasons, but for the IMCA modifieds. I see too many disposable cars being built, It's to the point of someone getting hurt over a light weight car. some builders are leaving out tubing and what is welded in the car is this wall tube........I feel it would be too hard in this class to have a set of chassis rules that dictate safety. Too many different cars, designs, and thoughts to be covered by one set of chassis building rules.
If the rule is as you stated, where a track can decide to run a weight rule or not is B.S.........are these car under the same santioning body or not? yes they are, then they should all run under the same rules. I don't understand how the current rule as stated would help anything..........at some tracks it will slow the light weight cars down a little, this will help keep the cars closer on the track. But the cream will rise to the top as it should. It will NOT get a racer to buy a heavy car that is built safer, a racer that knows he can travel a little and not run heavy is not going to build a out of thick wall tube along with adding some tubes, he will still buy the light weight car and bolt lead in the thing to make weight, this won't make the cars safer. Also, the re-sale of the light weight car will be better if not all tracks need to enforce a weight rule.



Rooster
Member
posted March 31, 2001 07:42 AM
Well put jeff!


PEDDLER
Member
posted March 31, 2001 07:59 AM
I think the weight rule will be mandatory in 2002. This promoters option is to give the promoters who don,t have scales time to be ready next year.

I don't see why this hasn't been put into force long before now.

bbracer17
Member
posted March 31, 2001 09:44 AM
Tire rules and weight rules always seem to make for better racing. I do agree with Jeff that people won't go buy safer cars but they might save some money on light weight components. I know one guy that even gundrills his front weight jack bolts, every ounce counts without a weight rule.


awkwardjeff
Member
posted March 31, 2001 02:39 PM
Peddler, I never gave ANY thought of some tracks not having a set of scales. You make a very good point. But any track that cant afford a $1000 for a set of scales shouldn't be in business. I do think that with the stuff that happened in WISSOTA this year ANY sanctioning body would do itself a great service to make the rules a year in advance. This would give the tracks and owners/drivers a chance to voice any concerns and for the sanctioning body time to adjust any rule.........my point is, if IMCA want to inforce a weight rule next year they should announce it now......if they don't they would be just as well off to inforce it now.........If nobody know in advance what the rules will be the tracks won't save money for the investment needed.
This doesn't just concern IMCA, ANY sanctioning body should make the rules 1 year in advance, this gives everyone a chance to use up the old rules.......sell old cars, or if you knew for sure the weight rule will be in place next year you wouldn't buy a light weight disposable car this year... A team or promotor could plan in advance on how best to save money while still having a competative car.


fury
Member
posted March 31, 2001 03:30 PM
Awkward Jeff,
The Wissota tranny controversy is not yet over. At the Princeton Speedway track meeting tonite (Sat, 31st), the promoter announced that, as of Friday, March 30th, the tranny rules are once again under review. He said that he couldn't give any details regarding what exactly they were reviewing, but he did say that some of the units (we know which ones) that were legal last week aren't any more.

I'd agree, the one year grace period would be a great idea...in a perfect world, but at the very least couldn't they make a rules change deadline of say February 1 every year? This would at least give the drivers a little time to get thier stuff in a bunch without having to worry about dropping coin on parts they can't use. There was one guy at this meeting tonite just fuming because he'd just spent $2500 on a tranny he may not be able to run. Who can blame him?? This whole business has gotten far past ridiculous as far as I'm concerned.

Shakespeare said it best...Kill all the lawyers.

Matt

awkwardjeff
Member
posted March 31, 2001 10:49 PM
Matt, It has taken a while after reading your post for me to gather my thoughts.....
I'm not sure if I should be mad or laugh my
head off..........I don't care about the tranny rule myself........we don't own a Ernie and don't plan on racing after this year, UNLESS some other sanctioning body comes to the tracks around here. We spent big bucks on a spec motor after getting our rule book...........we waited until we had the rule book in our hands before telling the machine shop which block to prep for us.
We brough him a 509 400 block and a 010 350 block........with the new rule book I felt the spec motor would be the way for us to go.........then you know what happend next.
Our car wieght is already 2600 so if they would have come up with the newest rules first I would have never spent the money to build a spec...........As of this time I'm not sure where we are going to race this year, we are talking about towing to Centuria, WI on Friday nights.......it's 120 miles but OPEN TIRE RULE AND NO WISSOTA.
we have two cars and 4 motors along with enough spares to build another car.......We are looking into racing karts for the following year.......either way I'm sure we will sell ALL our stuff and do something else...........unless the tracks get wissota out of here.
I posted on here for people that have spent money after the rule change only to be over-ruled again to contact me and I would start a class action lawsuit........Jammin didn't feel that was the right stuff to be posting here so it got deleated..........I don't blame him for not wanting to be a party to this mess.......The person that spent money for a tranny should wait for the new rules and if they outlaw the tranny he bought he should get the lawyers after wissota......
I would sell my stuff now if I felt I could get a fair price, but after spending the money for all the new stuff for this year to just give away new stuff for a used price isn't smart either..........We are all between a rock and a hard place.......after all this I have a hard time believing ANY promotor would want to be involved with wissota........the promotor needs to think this through very carefully.........next year they are going to loose cars like crazy.........in turn they will loose fans like crazy........then they will see what WISSOTA has done for them..........
I gotta stop, I'm getting mad.........The reason it's illegal for a convicted felon to own a gun is to protect us people from ourselves, I thank the government for having the foresight to have such a law protecting me from myself........LOL.....Jeff


GnarlyCar
Member
posted April 01, 2001 10:54 PM
Jeff,
They got us by the stones.. it's just that simple. They know that the majority of the drivers in Wissota would just as soon race under whatever rules they print rather than fight it or quit altogether. As much as I hate to admit it, I'm one of the guilty ones. The thing is that there are so many of us who like the guys we race with and the tracks we race on, and would rather just bite the bullet and cave in than to change what has become a real lifestyle for us and our families simply to make a point. Don't get me wrong, I completely understand your point of view, and would probably be more inclined to go that route if I hadn't all the family and sponsor obligations keeping me at the tracks I'm running.
I just love to race. Enough to do whatever it takes to clear the way for it to happen. As of now, they haven't built a big enough obstacle to change my mind. It's a little different for me, though... I run glides, and have tried to run nothing but spec motors since they were allowed. I've seen specs with less power than mine beat some of the big motors, so the motor issue isn't a problem for me. If they wanna start messing with those rules maybe I'll feel a bit different, but as of now they haven't ****ed me off enough.

Matt

awkwardjeff
Member
posted April 04, 2001 06:21 PM
Matt, come to Superior and get you **** handed to you every Friday night with your spec motor..........If we raced any where else I would have built a spec years ago too.
Because we have a new spec motor we won't race Superior..........they used to have 22-25 cars a night a few years ago........last year they were down to around 15-17 this year they will loose one more............see ya Superior.
We also run a glide..........it's just all the rules...........numbers, stickers, tires, motors, trannies, wheels, .........then to sit and take it.....
We will either race Grand Rapids MN. or Centuria, WI. Grand Rapids is only about 70 miles but is still wissota.......it would be another 100 miles every Friday night just to skip wissota...........I will need to call Centuria and get the whole story from them before I leave my shop......
I LOVE racing as much as anyone.........but I have a thing called pride..........and wissota can kiss my proud a55........
Princton to Centuria isn't too far.......skip the sponsors and I'll see you in Centuria..........Jeff


awkwardjeff
Member
posted April 04, 2001 06:22 PM
sorry

[This message has been edited by awkwardjeff (edited April 04, 2001).]

jammin
Administrator
posted April 04, 2001 08:00 PM
How did this get on Wissota anyway.......open a new topic if you hash on that one...What does everyone think of the IMCA weight limit?



PEDDLER
Member
posted April 18, 2001 08:29 PM
Jeff; what's really a shame is that our local track has scales and every class has a weight rule and they chose not to enact the weight rule for the I mods.The excuse is that it would take too long to weigh. That excuse don't hold water.

The sooner that I.M.C.A. and other like sanctioning bodies enact a weight rule, the better of we will be.

My opinion
The PEDDLER

------------------
RACING IS A HOBBY
GO HAVE FUN


modracr41
Member
posted April 23, 2001 11:52 AM
quote:
Originally posted by jammin:
What is your take....
Track option to enforce a minimum weight limit of 2,450 pounds, after the race with driver in the car. NO TOLERANCE.



I think that all the talk of people running heavier stuff is a joke. If the weight rule comes into being, then the guys with the light-weight stuff will be able to put the weight where they want it. It's called lead weight. If you shave a few pounds on the front with light-weight stuff, you can add the weight to the rear thereby increasing rear percentage and etc.
I had a discussion with fury this weekend, and he had a good point. As you go to a lot of tracks in the midwest, you are seeing a lot less people running the limited late models. Reason: They are pricing themselves out. It just plain costs too much for what you stand to win. He thinks that the modified class is headed that way, and I think I tend to agree with him. When IMCA started this thing, the point was to make it affordable to be competitive. This was the point behind the claim on engines and shocks. It evened the playing field and gave the racer with a limited budget the opportunity to experience success. Today, if you aren't running the light-weight stuff and spending big dollars, it is unlikely that you will be competitive. Anyone else feel this way? Please respond. Thanks and .......See ya at the track.


Goldigger
unregistered
posted April 23, 2001 01:10 PM           
[QUOTE]Originally posted by modracr41:
[B] [QUOTE]Originally posted by jammin:
I would have to somewhat agree with modracr4, I noticed the problem with IMCA's early on in the Houston area, shoot the local racers were so caught up in spending big bucks on thier motors they went to UMP so they could have more traction and not have to worry about getting thier big motor's claimed. Nobody claims around here anymore. Thier is a new track nearby, and they will be the only track runnig IMCA with the weight rule, that's where I plan on running. And if I see anybody running such a big motor with such a small claim, I will be the first to claim!


Mod 78
Member
posted April 23, 2001 03:43 PM
UMP and USMTS are both doing the exact same thing... I think you are right....the mods will out price themselves eventually..

But watch what I say....the sanctioning organizations that keep the price down will win in the long run.

IMCA is sticking to their guns on their rules.....this is the whole reason they do not want to change much. The costs of the engines are already high to be competitive....if your going to allow aluminum headed engines, why not let people run all aluminum motors? Not much difference when it comes down to it. I personally have seen Late Model racing here in arkansas completely disappear with the exception of the Mars series.... I do not want to see this happen to mods. There are a couple of tracks here locally that don't even run mods.....Basically a Street/Hot stock class is the premium division. I hate to see this. It is showing me that there is a trend developing. What you have are people that have enough money to raise the stakes of a class, but not enough to go to the next level. I think there should be some intermediate level between mods and Lates that needs to develop in order to give these guys something to spend their money on. UMP and USMTS are those classes right now. But what happens is that you have Wissota...UMP......USMTS and IMCA(some others also) that are all basically modifieds with engine differences, that is it. This means if the tech people dont know what they are looking for...then the classes can be intermingled....this is bad for everyone. This means that the local guy has to spend more money on his ride just to be competitive locally because some guys are coming in and running aluminum headed, big cubed engines and are not being called on it.
Honestly....I think there should be a CID limit on them for each seperate organization...I think parts might become harder to find, but it would allow each division of people to run their own set of rules and keep the crossing down. I think it would keep the big guns where they should be.

My two cents..

jammin

fury
Member
posted April 24, 2001 01:07 PM
has anyone else noticed that the people spending the big money in the modified class are the same ones that have caused the late models to vanish. once they price a class out were no one new can compete, promoters have to drop that class do to small car counts. these people than move to the next available class, and the process begins again.


jammin
Administrator
posted April 24, 2001 05:51 PM
Everyone here has a very valid point. What do we do about it? The only way we can make a difference is to get with the tracks that we run at and get all drivers together and confront the track personel, owner, and tech people. Tell them. Be up front....but it must be in a uniform effort. Get the tech people to the side(all of the drivers at one time). Make sure they know what to look for on the cars. If they don't.....educate them. Show them. Your time to do this will help you in the long run. Being a particpant at a track is more than just being a driver. It means preserving your class and rules. It is EVERYONE's responsibility to do this. If you don't.....everyone is going to be in the same boat as the lates. Get involved and educate. It is necessary for the future of our sport.

jammin


Steph
Member
posted April 27, 2001 09:22 AM
Hi guys...

Being a girl, and being new to stock car racing (only three years), I can't really comment on the historical costs of it, but all I know is that it does cost money. And frankly, I'm glad that it does! I mean, I don't want just anyone out there on the track running into our car! There are already enough "daddy's boys" jumping right into mods with no experience from a lower class. I don't consider a modified an "entry level" class... entry level in terms of a "Real race car" maybe - but someone brand new to racing should be driving a street stock, or come up from go-karts or something.

quote:
Originally posted by Goldigger:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mod 78:
[b]I think they should have at least used the same weight rule that Ump used.


Sure you do, like Bert or Brinn Trannes, gun drilled axles, less pipe in the cage, etc etc. [/B][/QUOTE]

Are you slamming UMP? I agree with Mod 78. I would like to see the rules among the sanctions be more similar. And what's wrong with gun-drilled axles? Before we went to them, we'd brake two or three axles every year. Since then, none. You tell me which is cheaper, stronger and a better bet for the long run! The same goes for our Brinn! Since getting it, we haven't had any tranny problems.

In order to run our UMP mod in IMCA country (only a coulple hundred miles away), we have to change our motor, tranny, and maybe even our front spindles (haven't figured that out yet). That's a lot for weekend racers with demanding full-time jobs during the week.

As far as the local racing goes, I happen to like UMP rules. I like to see fast cars scream around the track. And UMP mods are definitely cheaper than UMP LM's or even the few limiteds that we see around here.

Sorry guys, but I've only been to two IMCA races, and those cars put-put-putted around the track. They didn't scream. Go see a race where Denny Schwartz is flying around there and you'll know what I mean when I say scream.

And then at those IMCA tracks, they had this B-mod class that were V6 cars. UGLY! And not fast at all. I want to see fast cars! I guess that I'm lucky that I live where I do.

In the last three years that I've been with our team, we have been dumping a lot more money into it to get competitive, and we finally are. We won our first modified feature last weekend. But, that's with the same engine for the last three years, the same tranny for the last two years, and last year's new thing was an new chassis, to which we had to add lead to make the 2350 weight rule this year. Now that we've got those things, I don't see our costs increasing. It's just a big curve to get into it. Once you are there, and have the high quality stuff, the cost to stay there seems to be about the same. It's all about maintenance. I like where things are at now.

I guess I don't see the car counts going down or up for either mods or LMs. Looks to be about the same for the three years that I have been involved. The rate of new guys coming up seems to be about the same as the rate of attrition... then again, there are guys that say they are retiring and somehow they always make it to at least half the races the next year, or the year after that...

Maybe we just have a really competitive area... maybe we don't have the problems that you all seem to be having, and so I'm missing the point. Or maybe I'm just new enough to it that it already happened here and so I don't see it. Or, maybe we just have and are willing to spend enough money that it glosses things over so that I don't see it.

All I know is that this is our fifth year in a modified after moving up from the street stock class and last Saturday was our first feature win. Patience, hard work, and incremental investment is what it takes. How fun would it be if you could come in with a new car in your first year and win one. That would be too easy. I'm glad that we had to work for it. Keeps the interest level up. I'm sure that winning is fun, but who wants to win EVERY week - that's boring! We spent four years "putting in laps" and at the same time making our gear better to get to where we are. I think it ought to be that way.

Take this as a new perspective from someone newer to the sport I guess.
--Steph--


wheels13
Member
posted April 27, 2001 10:55 AM
I normally dont respond to these debates but I just have to take exception with some of Steph's comments. It is exactly this kind of we spend money attitude that has caused the decline in car counts. I understand that you feel like you have "worked" to achieve the level you have obtained, and in truth perhaps in some ways you have. What most of the folks refer to when discussing the cost is the ability to enter into this class. When more costly parts are utilizied, the step is made more difficult. I must take exception with you casting disparaging remarks on B-mods and IMCA in general. I dare say you have never attended Boone, for the Nationals. I have raced with IMCA and UMP and the difference is at time negligble. The cost of competing regularly is highly diiferent however. Each racer , in whatever class he competes is most likely doing all he can do at that time, so please , never make public degrading remarks about other classes of racers, we all are racing for the same reason, some are just less financially able to "scream" around the track in the manner you describe. Racers are racers from mini stocks, all the way to winston cup. The heart is in the same place. The weight rule is a great idea too. Makes cars last longer since they wont be obsoleted by next years chasis that is 15 LBs lighter.


jammin
Administrator
posted April 27, 2001 12:19 PM
Steph....you are referring to "we" as putting the money into the car. Are you personally buying parts for the car? If so, then you have a valid point, but if your not, then you have no point at all. I really do not think you see the magnitude of what you are talking about. But, it is not for me to judge, but to try to understand your reasoning. As far as the speed of any of the IMCA cars or whatever class. It doesnt take much motor to push a 2450 lb car around the track. The cost of the class is already skyrocketed and will continue to do so if we do not do something about it. This equipment that your stating that you guys have purchased will be outdated in a year or two and you will need to buy it again, then tell me if it is worth it. I do agree that there are some parts that IMCA and some other sanctions will not allow that would be better for the cars, but a 15,000 dollar engine isn't one of them. What do you guys get paid for a feature win at your track? You get right back to the same situation that resulted in many Late Model tracks not being able to afford to run them because too much money was spent on the cars and the owners can not afford to run them for peanuts with 30,000 in them. I am not trying to be a pain here, but durability is something that is needed in a race car. Yes, I agree, but you have to weigh the cost of what it would be in relationship to what your running for. Most tracks here in Arkansas pay between 400 and 500 to win. Are you going to run a 30,000.00 modified for that kind of money? It economically doesn't make sense. Personally, I feel that a class, such as IMCA, is a great tool for racers to learn EVERY aspect of a race car. To be able to run these cars competitively, on must do a lot of work in many areas themselves. To me this is great, because it can lead to engineering type advancements that you would not have otherwise if you just purchase the goods.

My two cents...

jammin


bogged
Member
posted April 27, 2001 12:32 PM
jammin,

here is an idea, why not just put a weight rule on the engine and tranny as a unit. this would eliminate all of the aluminum and light weight components. the weight rule would take care of itself. if someone wanted 58% rear with a stock weight engine they would have to add about 200 pounds to the rear. just brainstorming.

brownstone
Member
posted April 27, 2001 03:11 PM
What about having a minimum weight limit on front end only?

Just a thought

PEDDLER
Member
posted April 28, 2001 09:51 AM
Sounds like the same debate we had eairler about street stocks.


Steph
Member
posted April 30, 2001 09:26 AM
I'm not trying to be combative. I do want to lend my perspective though.

quote:
Originally posted by jammin:
I really do not think you see the magnitude of what you are talking about.

I stated up front that I am new to the sport, about three years, so I don't see the history. From what I've seen, I haven't perceived things as going down hill or expenses increasing (greater than inflation) in that time. They haven't added any new rules that allow us to go out and spend gobs more money. Technology has been increasing, but isn't that why the weight rule came to be? I don't have a problem with the weight rule, I'd just like to see it be equal across sanctions.

What I'm starting to figure out is that late models used to be more prevalent - running more local tracks. Around here, there are only a few that run them on a weekly basis - the two tracks that we normally run have modifieds as their top class. It's not much further to another track (that we actually like better) that runs LM's weekly, but the entry fee is more, so we don't run there. And I guess the thing that people talk about as "going the way of the LMs" is how there are "real late models" and the ones that run locally... and I'm just saying it this way because that's how we talk about them in our family. The "real" ones being those with the major sponsors, that travel a lot, and have the $30K engines. You ask a fan... which type of LM would you rather see? I bet they would say the $30K engine ones.

Also, when I said we, I did mean "we". "We" is my husband and me. My husband is the driver and he, his dad, and I are the standard pit crew. I work on the car and am slowly learning about it. We direct deposit money from my paycheck every two weeks into the racing account. And it's not a coincidence that "the team" was able to put more money into racing when I came into the family. Two incomes are better than one!

I apologize for any slamming of other classes or sanctions... All I wanted to do is give you guys an "outside of the box - yet from within the box" perspective. (And no, I have not been to Boone.) I guess I was just trying to make the point that some people like UMP and prefer the freedom to put some money into their cars. Not that I really like UMP as an organization... but that's a wholly different discussion. (As an outsider/newcomer to the sport, they seem pretty disorganized to me, but then so does a lot of racing in general.)

quote:
Originally posted by jammin:
This equipment that you're stating that you guys have purchased will be outdated in a year or two and you will need to buy it again, then tell me if it is worth it.

So why would I, as a new wife, without a history of racing, and wanting to have a house (which we finally got - yea!) and to start a family soon be willing to spend so much money on a hobby? The first reason is that it is a lot of fun! And secondly, knowing that this is a hobby, I look at it as spending part of our retirement now. If we weren't having fun racing, that extra money would be invested. Rather than planning some elaborate vacations when we're too old to enjoy them, we're enjoying things now. And third, there are parts of racing that are not fun. Learning to set up the car? Fun. Getting all greasy working on an engine that's having problems but you don't know why? Not fun. I don't want to spend every night of six or more months out of the year in the shop. If that means putting in a Brinn that will last a couple of years and not have to be touched, rather than a powerglide that will have to be replaced 2-3 times a season, I'll take the Brinn (and all that time that it keeps us out of the shop).

And if it's not time out of the garage, at least it's time to spend on set-up instead of grease monkey stuff. So yes, it is worth it. I guess I don't see buying a new transmission or a new chassis every two to three years as being unreasonable. Maybe that makes my husband a lucky man, but hey - if we're going to spend this much money, we'd better be having fun! And putting in laps year after year isn't fun.

Does this make sense? I'm "investing" in better parts so that I can have more time away from racing... making our time that we spend on racing more fun. We're not in our shop spending time fiddling with our motor. If we get busy with other aspects of our lives, we know that if we simply change the fluids and keep the car maintained, and maybe buy a tire or two, that we can go out there and have fun. And if we were in the ballpark to begin with, maybe even win.

And again, we're not paying for this out of our winnings... we're paying for this out of our paychecks. This is a money-sink-hole of a hobby if there ever was one.

quote:
Originally posted by wheels13:
It is exactly this kind of we spend money attitude that has caused the decline in car counts.

Well, I haven't seen a decline in modifed car counts at our track. In fact, the class that is declining is the super street class... people are either moving up to mods or scaling down to street stocks. We've had three weeks at our home track now and the counts were 24, 23, and this week, with planting (farming) just about done, there were 33 mods. Last year the average was around 40.

I guess, just as wheels13 doesn't like to see people spending money, I'm tired of people bashing people that do have the money to spend. My husband and I are both lucky to have good jobs. He's an engineer and I'm in computers. Does that mean that we're too rich to race? Should find something else to spend our money on? Should we purposefully limit our racing spending just to keep things status quo? I think wheels said it best:

quote:
Originally posted by wheels13:
Each racer , in whatever class he competes is most likely doing all he can do at that time...

We're just doing all that we feel like we have the ability to do. We're just trying to keep up and be competitive with the time that we are willing to put into it. Maybe we are over compensating with technology. But it sure makes life easier, and isn't that the job of technology? Does that make us bad racers for using available, legal, racing technology?

We race to have fun, to compete, and mainly to keep my husband sane. While it may seem like it sometimes, it is not our life. It's just one part of it. Our other expensive hobby is SCUBA diving. No one would accuse us of being bad for the sport of SCUBA diving simply because we prefer to spend money and travel to warm places to enjoy the sport rather than using the rock quarries around here.

It's just a hobby folks. Don't take what the other person is able to do so personally!

jammin
Administrator
posted April 30, 2001 10:19 AM
I dont think that anyone on here is taking anything personally. I just think that because someone has a little more money than someone else, that the class should not conform to your pocketbook. If this means spending time in the shop....then do it. If you dont want to be successful in the class then the shop time wont matter anyway. This sport is not an easy sport. I personally work on my setups constantly to make sure we have everything organized. If you race seriously and take what you do seriously, then your working on your stuff anyway. Your right, the whole aspect of the more expensive parts is for durability, but when you run a class, either you conform or you go somewhere else. Do not try to change the class for your convenience. I feel that this is one of the main problems that we have today. People are getting lazy and want the easiest way out. If you dont want to spend the time racing, then dont do it. It's not worth it. I really enjoy working on my car and this is one of the main reasons I enjoy the sport. Some people don't like that....all I can say is if you want to go fast under a set of rules, it takes work. You have to find the grey areas and use them. That is one of the fun parts of the class. This is what the whole scenario is about. If you get someone with more money than time, then you have opened up a can of worms that you will never be as successful as you can be at what your doing if you spend the time to learn and reason why things do what. Working on stuff is the only way to figure this out. If you want a weekend sport Steph.....I suggest you guys go drag racing or something.

My 2 cents.

jammin


Steph
Member
posted April 30, 2001 11:15 AM
I guess I'm missing the point. There are always some trade-offs...

I don't see where it is wrong to buy products that make the maintainability of a car easier, so that there is more time available for set-up. The things that we have, for durability, are legal, readily available, and are used by every top ten team in this area, because we are in a UMP area. Should we sacrifice ourselves and try to run with lesser technology than the top teams just to keep the sport more "honest" or time-consuming? And in the process, end up spending more money too?

I guess I'm missing the point here.

I said that working on set-ups is fun... and it's not something that always has to be done in the shop. It takes a lot of working things out in your head and that doesn't have to be done in the shop.


The one thing that we spend money on where I do think money is wasted is the engine. I'd still have it professionally built, for durability and maintenance reasons, but we shouldn't have needed that last upgrade a couple of years ago. Even so, they are no where near what LM engines are going for.

Quite frankly, when we told our builder the last time we had it upgraded what we wanted out of it, he was shocked and almost had to be talked into doing it. (Note: Our builder is a couple hundred miles away.) Finally, after talking with us, he figured out why we wanted such a motor. Every other mod that he builds for in his area, they they draw for starting position. We qualify. Thick, tacky, heavy track... you need that power to get ahead. And when a track around here doesn't qualify?... believe me, they hear about it. There were huge threads over on the ** about Vermilion County last year and how they were drawing for position. Drivers like to qualify. We do not need this much motor to race... it's all for qualifying. So, if you want to cut the motors, cut qualifying. See how much driver support you get for that.

Back to the Brinn, gun-drilled axles, and a new chassis every two-three years... I still don't see where that's a problem. The gun-drilled axles are about strength, not weight, although I'm sure that little bit less of spinning weight helps. Same with the Brinn, that's about durability. The chassis is a bit of a stretch, but eventually that thing is going to get a little torqued and it's more cost effective to have a straight chassis than struggling with one where you don't know.

Maybe you can help explain it to me. We're not one of the ones with totally new cars every year, but we're not one of the ones with the same car from seven years ago either. I mean, why does it matter that we spend 50 or more hours at our jobs putting in the over time to have the money to buy the Brinn, rather than the 60 or more hours to change out another powerglide that got torqued? It's all putting the time in for racing, one way or another, isn't it? Unless you just have a natural affinity for it, the amount of time put into set-ups is the same, isn't it? Or do you think that some technology has the capability of overcoming poor set-ups?

modracr41
Member
posted April 30, 2001 11:42 AM
I think that all of the people responding have some valid points. However, I still think that at some point, we have to limit the amount of money it takes to be competitive. If money is no object, and there were no rules to govern this type of thing, everybody would run the lowest class and spend as much as possible to run out front.
As for mods not being a beginner class, in the beginning back in 1979, mods WERE invented to be a beginner class with rules to even the playing field. The intent was to keep the field level for all competitors and in doing this, driver skill and a little luck would give even the newest driver the opportunity to be successful.
Over time, things change. As stated above, more and more tracks are eliminating the sprint cars and late models because of the numbers. This forces those drivers to do one of three things: 1) quit racing altogether 2) find a track elsewhere that races the class that they run or 3) drop down to a class that is still running. The end result: there are a lot of guys that used to run a late model or sprint car on the budgets that they already had running modifieds. This will in time eliminate the mod numbers in the same way that late models and sprints have been.
What's next? Running a Super-street with a $20,000 motor? Just my two-cents........See ya at the track.


wheels13
Member
posted April 30, 2001 11:47 AM
I will first apologize to Steph if you understood my words as a slam to you and your teams ability to finance your racing, it was not my intent to do that. I only took exception to your verbage towards other classes you seem to find inferior to your own. I dont begrdge your ability to spend money at all, if ya got it and want it ....do it.I only want to keep the rules where it is possible for guys to race without alloting a portion of each check solely for this purpose. Granted in some respects we all do just that but not quite in such a recognizable method. I do NOT agree however, that money for costly parts is for durability only. It just HAS to be lighter and therefore more costly. were it for durabilty only, I have no problems with that. but if it were just for ease of use then stock parts would be simple and not require much time for maintenance. HMMM what a concept, but it has to be smaller, lighter, and therein lies the rub. these kinds of advancements just force middle of the road teams farther back. I dont like seeing this happen when simple rules will stop it. And as for your analogy of scuba diving and how would i compare that, your choices as to where you go do not affect me so go for it. but the rules changes that concievably force me to cease to do what I have done for twenty years do affect me. I dont consider this a fair and equal thing then. I dont mind if you spend what you think is necessary, I just dont like to see the costs keep escalating, I would like to see you not have to spend as much on the latest parts and call it "durability". we will debate this for all time just as others have for ever. But at some point common sense has to enter in, before we kill a class and start all over, lets seek longevity of a class and not "keep up with the jones".


Steph
Member
posted April 30, 2001 12:09 PM
So in the meantime, how do you keep up without buying the parts that "they" use?

I mean, are we as a team supposed to stand up and say, "No, I won't do it!" and try to rally our friends around while we all watch the rest of the top teams pass us by? It's one thing to talk about it and another to just go out there and make laps every year, hoping that someone at the head of the sanction takes the toys away.

Or, do you go out there and do the best that you can do, taking advantage of those gray areas that Jammin' mentioned and therefore push the sanctioning bodies to make some sort of rule to cover the newest gray area?

(Oh, and the SCUBA thing does work... these rock quarries that are specifically maintained for diving are usually owned by a local dive shop, and if people stop using the local resources, eventually the local shop will close and there will be fewer local/cheaper opportunities for diving.)

[This message has been edited by Steph (edited April 30, 2001).]

#11StockCar
Member
posted April 30, 2001 01:32 PM
I have raced Bomber, HobbyStock, StreetStock, and StockCars in the Houston area, I know what fast is. Well, I would have to admit that I really don't have the budget to put all that money in a Modified. You could probably say that my budget would consist of a Bomber entry level car. Thats why I am so happy there is an IMCA santioned track now in my area. I can look forward to getting into an IMCA Modified while people like Steph are pouring thousands and thousands of dollars into a UMP mod. I don't care about buying my way to the front, it's out of the question. It will probably take me a couple of years to make my car competetive. I was on a Modified team once, and we came in 5th in points running bone stock chevy motors with one feature win, it can be done in IMCA, not UMP. I am looking forward to driving such a light car, the less weight the better, but if IMCA feels the extra 100 pounds in necessary than I feel they have my best interest at heart. Thanks IMCA

------------------
For Sale


Steph
Member
posted April 30, 2001 02:04 PM
Guys,
Can we please stop referring to me as the one that pours money into a UMP mod? We all know that there are lots of teams out there that do the same thing.
I'm just trying to be honest and see if we can find a solution to the problem rather than just talking about it.
Maybe that's not possible.

Let me try to ask it a different way:
Are more rules the only way to stop the escalation?
In the abscence of new, cost limiting rules, how can one be "responsible for maintaining our racing class" while still trying to achieve a winning record when the competition is not trying to limit the costs of the class?

Any ideas?

#11StockCar
Member
posted April 30, 2001 02:35 PM
Well Steph, you said you had ten grand in your motor - Only in UMP, I thought this post was aimed @ the new IMCA extra 100 pound rule. You can take out your illegal trans, and leave in your ten thousand dollor motor and get it claimed (for 500 bucks HEHE)or just transfer you roller to IMCA, its up to you. IMCA and UMP are different cars. The racers are choosing to spend all that extra cash, its up to the Sanction to put a stop to what they feel is excessive, its for the good of the class.
You see, people with the pockets for what you have can just run Sprint cars around here. No, not Outlaw sprints, local sprints, no, not Havatampa cars local Latemodels, there is a difference.


jammin
Administrator
posted April 30, 2001 03:15 PM
Well, as far as IMCA being out for the racers, well...I think that may be questionable, but I do think that the IMCA sanction is probably the best thing out there right now for mod racers. You can talk about the claim, yes...it is a definite threat. This is what keeps the engines down most of the time. But the actual insurance policy they have and points funds and other things are really legit. I think for the money, you cant beat it for a year of racing. I personally think it could be improved, but it is probably the best thing out there at this time to take care of the cost of racing. The weight limit was much needed.

jammin

brownstone
Member
posted April 30, 2001 03:58 PM
I must say.........IMCA does what they think is best for them as a sanctioning body. But having thousands of cars all over north America is also in their best interest......you can't mess over the racer without messing over yourself......this just makes sense........it's business.
everytime they make a rule change it effect them as a business.

Steph, You stated you have been involved for three years........I'm not trying to be short sighted, please don't be offended. But get back to me in another 5 years. You stated the top 5-10 teams run this expensive stuff and you feel the need to spend the same to keep up. I think everyone can agree to a point. But some where along the line other things come into play. When people keep comparing the direction the Mods are currently going to the Late Models, I thought they were talking about how they have out priced themselves and no longer have many places to race, along with having small car counts when they find a place to race.
Kinda like a UAW MEMBER in Detroit, MI....
good work if you can find it.....
I like people like you in the class.....when I pull my home built car in the track on my home built trailer and beat your TEAM with my home built motor I feel great......I wonder if you feel as great when you beat me with all your money and less work???? I've often wondered that question, does it make you feel good to beat a low buck guy like myself? I would think you should lap me in a 30 lap race, not win by 4 car lengths......without people like yourselves racing wouldn't be as much fun.......I believe we all thought the same as you currently do, when we were new to the sport also. As you spend more time and more money racing you will see how UMP has let the cost get out of contol and now you are sitting with a "INVESTMENT" of say $25000 and no place to race because only a few people could afford this class, then the track drops the class and adds IMCA mods or something a little cheaper that the average person can afford.
None of what I wrote is intended to upset you, I was only trying to help you look down the road a little farther where most of the people responding are already standing....
Good luck this season, and CONGRATES ON GETTING THE HOUSE........
This subject has been around forever and in every class.......look at winston cup.....
there are they have teams that have, and teams that have not.......I wonder if RCR is happy to beat some one car team that doesn't have the money to compete.......everyone has a choice.........If your not HAPPY quit...I race because I enjoy doing so, I spend the money I can afford and as much time as nessasry to run at the front. I can afford a Brinn, I have a glid that I have two years on. If you were having problems with a glid instead of spending the money to buy new maybe someone on your team should have learned a little more about the trannies to see what the problem was........There are a lot of different ways to run at the front, if you didn't have the money avilable to race like you currently do, would you spend more time on your car or would you move down a class to be competative??? this question is for everyone.......not just Steph.
Jeff

[This message has been edited by awkwardjeff (edited May 01, 2001).]

Steph
Member
posted May 01, 2001 07:36 AM
Thanks Jeff for your thoughtful response.
Regarding our "team" vs your home-built car... I guess we still feel pretty small. Out of the top guys at our track, we're one of the few that owns everything ourselves. Quite a few spread things around having an engine owner, the car owner and maybe a hired "driver". So, we feel pretty "homey" too... my father in law is one of the best fabricators out there. He just likes to make things too heavy!
If one of us lost our jobs, we'd have to quit racing to pay the bills. If we just had less money, or racing got to be too expensive, we'd probably just race less. Although my husband has talked about going back to street stocks if he absolutely had to. So, there you go I guess.


wheels13
Member
posted May 01, 2001 08:46 AM
My compliments Jeff, that was very well put. Steph, I do hope I didnt offend you for that was not my intention and I do appreciate your view from the angle you have shown us. It is a bit of insight from another perspective. If we come off a bit short sounding, it isnt because we are cranky, its just we have traveled this way before. We love this sport and want to continue to do it. Having seen the inevitable ebb and flow over the years, we want to keep the peaks and valleys to a minimum. I wish you and your team all the best of luck, and despite what I may sound like i really understand where you are coming from. I hope that continued weight rules and tire rules will help to contain the damage. if an engine rule is needed then, so be it, whatever it takes to save it for the future.