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Author Topic:   Mustang GT Street Stock
outlawstock17
Member
posted August 18, 2002 10:18 AM
hey guys, i'm new to the forum and really dig it. i have an 89' mustang with a 393 stroker and SVO iron heads. the car has a 99" wheel base. i've been racing at tulsa speedway in their outlaw stock class for the last few weeks. they have a 108" min. wheel base rule but the promoter has let me in anyway since i don't have any engine setback. i'm beginning to get the car dialed in and starting to get good finishes, so the whiners are coming out of the closet. does anyone know of another track in the NE oklahoma area where i could race this car? another question i have is why was the 108" wheel base put in? most every tracks rules that i've seen have it. that rule makes it virually impossible to compete in a ford legally without shortening a crown victoria frame and that's illegal too at tulsa.


hotrod99h6
Member
posted August 18, 2002 10:55 AM
Well in Enid,Ok the Factory Stock has a 112in wheelbase rule...I didint understand what you was asking..what is your wheelbase and what class do you want to run in???


outlawstock17
Member
posted August 18, 2002 01:18 PM
factory stock is not an option. i use a stroker 393 ford with SVO iron heads, 830 holley, aluminum intake making over 500HP. i'd be legal for most all outlaw factory stock/street stock classes in this area if it wasn't for the 108" wheel base rule. i heard that tri-state in ft. smith, arkansas had a class for these cars, but i haven't confirmed that. i was just looking to see if any of the local tracks would be willing to make a rules change to allow some fords in. i have generated a lot of interest with the car, but no one is willing to build them until a promoter will step into this century and allow the strut cars in legally, including the 82' up camaro/firebird platform.

[This message has been edited by outlawstock17 (edited August 19, 2002).]

jammin
Administrator
posted August 19, 2002 02:19 AM
I know that Mt Ida is running some of the later model camaros....you might check it...
www.arkansasracewaypark.com

jammin


GnarlyCar
Member
posted August 19, 2002 12:22 PM
The reason that the 108" wheelbase rule is in place is to keep racing reasonably affordable. The GM small metric cars are 108" and are a dime a dozen, and most street stock rules were written around them or something similar. You can't run a camaro or a firebird, either. It has nothing to do with your car being a Ford, it has everything to do with your car being built right from the factory to outhandle anything else, which is what you're doing, not to mention than I've never heard (and I doubt that I will) of any "street stock" class that would allow an SVO 390whatever you got in there. You got gall enough to say something about the "whiners coming out of the closet".. What would you have to say if I put fenders on my Modified and came down there running 600HP against you? It's the same thing...I'd smoke you like a fine cuban cigar and you'd run to the promoter and cry about how unfair it is. Rules are made to keep an equal (or in the case of your "outlaw" class, almost equal) playing field. Your running that car against the likes of the metric chassis is about as fair as playing football on a ski slope with the endzones at the top and bottom. You can't help but be faster with what you got unless you're trying to hold a drink in your hand while you're racing, and I'm not convinced you're not, considering how completely moronic it is that you'd even consider that your car should be able to run under the rules you've got.
My best advice would be to sell your Mustang and put that motor in a Torino or LTD and go out and see if you can beat anyone with an equal car.

my $.02,
Matt

[This message has been edited by GnarlyCar (edited August 19, 2002).]

ryan
Member
posted August 19, 2002 04:29 PM
Lengthen the wheel base and put a metric body on.


outlawstock17
Member
posted August 19, 2002 05:05 PM
gnarlycar, we have an unlimited cast iron head and cast iron block engine rule with no claimer. my car is 400lbs. heavier than the guy i ran 2nd to last weekend. my engine is set where ford put it and everyone else has theirs set back #1 plug to balljoint. i could sell my whole car for $7000 and be in the black. most of my chevrolet competition has that much in the drivetrain, so the 108" wheelbase rule has nothing to do with cost. the 108" wheelbase rule is a GM rule and you know it. ford NEVER made a 108" full frame car and hasn't made a 108" unibody car since the 1971-73 mustang/cougar platform.

if the factory built it with a v-8, you should be able to race it with a v-8 against other makes that were available with a v-8. you GM guys never seem to have a problem with handicapping every car that isn't like yours, but when ford has a better idea, it's illegal. meanwhile you want to use a ford 9" in your car. i give up!

outlawstock17
Member
posted August 19, 2002 05:24 PM
on another note gnarlycar, i NEVER whine about anybody elses car. i race for fun and whining isn't fun. so bring your 600+ HP modified whatever with a body on it and lets see what you can do. if you outrun me, i'll shake your hand and say "good job". if i outrun you, you'll be cryin' to the promoter.

that's my 10 cents, because my 2 cents is free!

ford5
Member
posted August 19, 2002 06:45 PM
outlawstock17,,,,, we have the same problem here as you do, i know what your sayin'....


outlawstock17
Member
posted August 19, 2002 07:05 PM
i hear ya' ford5. tulsa's letting me race and the fans love the car. it's only a few that have a problem with it and they're the same few that ALWAYS have a problem with something. you probably know a few just like them at your track. LOL


ford5
Member
posted August 19, 2002 07:12 PM
yes i do LOL wanna see the car that i built for the fellow that works for me? go to user pics street stock and view the black green and white no. 55 t-bird


GnarlyCar
Member
posted August 20, 2002 07:29 PM
Outlaw, you've missed the whole point. You seem to think the rules are written against Fords, when the simple fact of the matter is that the promoters are trying to keep racing affordable for the larger part of the population. Simple economics, really.. If you're gonna make a class of race car, make it a class where the cars are readily available. GM metrics are just that.
Ford makes how many cars that might fit into a street stock category? maybe 2, and the Mustang isnt one of them. GM made 6 cars that fit into that category and sold probably 10 times as many of them. And, whether in Chevrolet, Buick, Pontiac, or Olds trim, the motors are all interchangeable. It's the same car, and there's a billion of them out there. So, before you run your mouth off trying to convince everyone there's some big conspiracy against Fords, take a good hard look at the reality of the situation. Nobody bought enough of them to make them popular enough to make a racing class out of them. GM stuff's a WHOLE lot easier to come by for the masses. I didn't make the rules, I just understand them.

2 more cents, and that about breaks me..
Matt


outlawstock17
Member
posted August 20, 2002 08:36 PM
okay matt, i'll agree that the rules weren't written AGAINST fords. the rules WERE written FOR GM's and they were written before the popularity of the late model mustangs really skyrocketed in the last 10-15 years.

have you seen how many late model mustangs are still on the road or are at salvages? there's just as many out there as there are metric cars. they've been making them since 1979 and are still making them today. not to mention all the 104" fox bodied thunderbirds/cougars and 106" fairmonts that are plentiful in salvages all over the country. the mustangs are just as cheap to build as the metric GM's. i've already proven that. you need to get your facts straight. check out your local drag strip, where there is no wheel base rule and you'll find lots of mustangs as well as in your mini-stock class at your local dirt track and they are, to quote you, "a dime a dozen".

i don't need to convince you of anything. i've already convinced one promoter and there will be more to follow. promoters are looking to get more cars on the track and more people in the stands. you on the other hand are trying to exclude every car that isn't your cookie cutter GM which will only hurt car counts and therefore fan attendance as well. i have something to offer a promoter and you do not, unless he wants some whine with his cheese.

there are 3 kinds of people in racing, those who make things happen, those who watch things happen and those who don't know what happened. i'm determined to make something happen, you can watch or wait and wonder what happened. it doesn't matter to me.

[This message has been edited by outlawstock17 (edited August 20, 2002).]

GnarlyCar
Member
posted August 20, 2002 10:05 PM
Just had another thought.. Is it not true that all the Ford chassis you just mentioned require some kind of subframe reinforcement to become race ready for anything other than mini stock? Seems to me that a metric chassis requires only the installation of a simple roll cage to become race ready, and not the expense and headache of a subframe connection fabrication. Simple economics once again... The promoters want to make it as easy as possible for new people to get into racing, so they write rules around cars that are readily available and easily converted.
Another thought.. How many guys race in this outlaw stock class, and how many of them are gonna be around in 2 years in the same class? Everyone in the class is destined for one of 2 things. They'll either get tired of winning or tired of blowing thier life's savings trying to keep up. In either case, no one's gonna stay in it for very long before they see the light and move into another class where they know what kind of budget they're racing against. The guy who's got twice the coin and twice the horsepower and stays in that class isn't racing cars, he's racing wallets, and that ain't what it's supposed to be about.
You can go ahead and believe what you want, but I've been around racing for quite a while and have seen plenty of personalities just like yours come and go. You show up thinking you know it all and are going to change the face of racing as we all know it, and once you realize your view of things clashes so nastily with the real world you silently fade from the scene, only to be forgotten by next spring. You're not the first, not the last, not the smartest or the dumbest. What you are is one of a million who don't care to understand that every facet of any form of racing is dictated by how much money the promoter's gonna make. If the promoter thinks he can make a few extra bucks by letting you race, he will. As soon as the whiners start coming out of the closet, he's gotta wiegh your entry fee and the money you directly bring in the gate against how much he stands to lose when the whiners take thier fans and go race somewhere else. He doesn't care what you got or what anyone else's got, he's trying to make a living, and he does that by getting as many people through the gate as possible. Once you start costing him money, you're gone, and the only way you'll be able to race again is by showing up with a car that fits the rules. It'll happen sooner or later.

hadda borrow that 2 cents from my kid..now I'm gonna owe her 3..

Matt

outlawstock17
Member
posted August 20, 2002 11:17 PM
matt, i've been racing for 21 years. i'm not going away anytime soon. maybe i can make this happen and maybe i can't, but i'm not afraid to fail and there's more than one way to skin a cat.

yes, the subframes have to be connected and the cage takes a little more time to build but if you do it yourself, it doesn't cost any more than the extra tubing and consumables.

we had 21 cars last friday. most of the guys in this class have been there a few years. and yes, some of them spend big bucks on 400+ C.I. roller cammed, alcohol burning screamers and i've drove over the pieces of those high dollar engines many times. we use asphalt take offs only. you may have the same rule with your street stocks. on a dry slick track, it isn't about horsepower or wallets, it's about using your head to gain momentum and throttle control. just because i can run with the 600+ HP guys with my $6500 mustang, you want to kick me for it.

as i mentioned earler, it's only 2 or 3 guys that have a problem and they always have a problem with something. if i can get the promoter to write this into the rule book, i think that the car counts will go up in the next few years. just think of all the mini stock drivers that could jump into this class with a working knowledge of the chassis already in their resume. the factory stock guys already have that advantage.

i don't think that allowing more types of cars to compete is going to hurt car counts. i think that it will put more cars on the track and therefore more people in the stands. i have nothing against you. what i do have is the courage and insight to try and better the sport i dearly love.

i'll let you have the last word, because i'm ready to move on........

wes

racer17j
Member
posted August 20, 2002 11:39 PM
outlaw the 108 rule is to keep out the production performance cars such as your stang,ta's and camaros. and i don't understand why they would not let you run a bird body on a crown vic frame we ran one a few years ago that way and have a guy now that runs one here. we also have a guy in the area that runs a 2 dr ltd not sure what the wheelbase is on it but it runs pretty good and it weights right around the same as our metric cars do. basicly racing is more fun if everybody is on an even feild alot cheaper that way too but from the sounds of your class money is not figured into it at all. wouldn't you be a little upset if a guy showed up with a older big block vette and blew all your doors off.


outlawstock17
Member
posted August 21, 2002 07:29 AM
our rules state, "no frame modifications", that means no shortening of the wheelbase. if i ran a crown victoria frame, it would be a 116" wheelbase, i think. a camaro or firebird is okay so you can throw that performance car theory out the window. i ran a 110" granada in this class with some success, but that chassis is outdated. everyone seems to think that the short wheelbase is a big advantage. i've driven both long and now short cars with the same engine and actually the short car is harder to drive, mainly because it is nose heavy. it's hard the keep the back wheels behind you, LOL.

if a guy shows up in a big block vette and blows me away, i'll still shake his hand and say "good job" after the races. this is about fun and to me, racing is fun no matter where i finish. my main goal is to load my heap in one piece under it's own power.

you GM guys don't like it when the tables are turned. you guys don't have a problem with me racing a 114" torino or 116" crown victoria against your 108" metrics and camaros. but if you think i might have an advantage, you go bananas.

within 10-20 years, all the metric cars are going to be gone. what are you going to race then? a front wheel drive monte carlo? the mustangs are still in production today. i may be a few years pre-mature with this car, but the time is coming guys. the newer mustangs are the "small block chevys" of the next 20-30 years. some of you guys think like you drive: off the end of your hood. i'm looking down the road a piece.....

[This message has been edited by outlawstock17 (edited August 21, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by outlawstock17 (edited August 21, 2002).]

outlawstock17
Member
posted August 21, 2002 08:25 AM
ok guys, this is what i'm talking about. check out the street stock rules for centerville, arkansas.
http://www.centervillesuperspeedway.com/

now there's a promoter with some insight.

racer17j
Member
posted August 21, 2002 10:11 AM
there are alot of places that are going to the newer bodies or aftermarket steel with stock appearing nose even imca is talking about changing over to that in the stock car class for 2004.and most 108 rules are for full frame and then they have 110 for unibody cars thats why i said what i did. i race for fun also but i also don't like to get beat by a car that is not running on the same rules as i am. but don't worry your not alone we have alot of people complaining about a limited 360 mod that runs a mopar so he can run 370 cid and he's been kick'n but.


GnarlyCar
Member
posted August 21, 2002 09:51 PM
Well, Wes..It's pretty obvious that niether of us is gonna change the other's mind here. Seems pointless to continue. I'll concede that the rules are quickly becoming outdated but such that they are, they're still rules. The way things go in my part of the country there isnt a class that will even let you run a Camaro, Firebird, or Mustang competitively. If you showed up at any track around here with any one of those cars, you'd have to run with the super stocks and get your a$$ handed to you due to the fact that you'd never get any one of those steel bodied cars within 300 lbs of a super stock, which is basically a late model on 8" tires. I guess in my sanction there's a place for Camaros and Mustangs, but only for the front stub. No, it doesn't make a ton of sense to me either. Your point is taken in that regard..there's room for some new writing in our rulebook too. On the other hand, it's a delicate balance. There are tracks around here that already run 7 classes of cars. There's just very little room for another class, really.
As for my take on the outlaw class as a whole, I think I've made that pretty clear. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, really.. seems like a money pit, but to each thier own.
I'd like to think that niether of us will take anything personal away from this little debate, spirited as it was. I know I won't. I don't need to agree with someone to respect them, and while I don't necessarily agree with everything you've said, you seem to be an intelligent man, and that alone deserves respect.
Good luck in all your ventures toward enlightening the promoters and your part of the race community as a whole, and I'd hope you'd update the rest of us as to your progress, be it successful or not.

OK..I'm getting long-winded again..
Later,
Matt


outlawstock17
Member
posted August 21, 2002 10:14 PM
no hard feelings here matt. tulsa is letting me run the rest of this season and will probably have a rules meeting this winter. centerville, arkansas has already let the shorter wheelbase cars in their street stock class. as i said earlier, i may be a little pre-mature with this car, but in my opinion, it's only a matter of time. i too, respect you for standing toe to toe with me in debate over this issue. i'll keep you posted on how it turns out next season. now i need to get a new bearing in the scroll wheel of my mouse from scrolling to the bottom of the page so many times! LOL!

happy motoring, my friend.

wesley

dirtracer7
Member
posted August 24, 2002 12:23 PM
I run a 77LTDII on 5/8 clay track in Michigan its shortened to 109 our rules say 108 min.They also say no shortening of the frame but nobody knows Ford enough to notice.As far as gm oreinted rules its the same here.Gm has marine intake Ford and Dodge don,t some other local tracks have specefied part numbers for aluminum intakes .The inspectors tell me why should they change the rules to benfit one car. I think because the super stock champ for the last two years has Ford motor in it they won't do anything to see a Ford collect the factory stock champ.This is my first full season running now that I'm getting the handling figured out i've been beating the sponsered cars the last two weeks.Last week I beat last years champ and our number 2 points man this year.I had them by half a straight.Back to the rules thing last years rules said no big blocks this years rules had that rule removed so a pontiac could run a big block maybe they should have told him the same they told me ,you should run a chevy.When I start wining more I'm sure the whiners will come out of the woodwork.The only thing is they don't know what there looking for.I also asked about using a 93 t-bird they said ok until they heard indepedent rear suspesion we wouldn't want a Ford with something better in it.Good luck and keep your blue oval kickin but.


outlawstock17
Member
posted August 24, 2002 04:45 PM
it won't be just one car before too long. i've had the same problem for years being the only ford. ford v-8 fox chassied racecars are coming to a track near you in the near future and you heard it first right here on the dirt forum.

i thought about the 89' up cougar/thunderbird platform as well but after looking closer at the rear suspension, i decided against it. the hubs are small and a metric bolt pattern and re-drilling them to fit a 5x4.5" bc would be getting close to the outside edge of the hub. the upper control arm on the rear is also a weak point. the front suspension is just plain weird looking. replacement parts for these cars is expensive too.


keep running your ford dirtracer7 and get to know the promoter. tell him that he needs a ford/chevy/dodge battle to fill the stands and he needs to adjust the rules to make that happen. tell him to look at NASCAR and watch them change the rules every week if its needed to keep things close between the different makes. filling the stands is what every promoter wants, sometimes they just don't know how to accomplish that.


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