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Author Topic:   alcohol
dlarson14
Member
posted February 27, 2000 08:22 PM
Can anyone tell me what I would have to do to my 406 to run alcohol rather than gas.I have keith black hyp pistons,world products heads,victor jr.intake 545lift cam. What do I need besides carb?


mod#7
Member
posted February 27, 2000 10:04 PM
What size fuel line from the cell?


kb42
Member
posted February 28, 2000 04:09 PM
I too have a familiar set up, And I run a Speedway carb. with a BG mechanical pump with no bypass and it works great. I also had problems keeping it warm--had to add thermostat. I run a size -8 fuel line.

[This message has been edited by kb42 (edited 02-28-2000).]

[This message has been edited by kb42 (edited 02-28-2000).]

[This message has been edited by kb42 (edited 03-07-2000).]

mod#7
Member
posted February 28, 2000 07:47 PM
I'm usually wrong all the time too. I switched to alcohol this year mainly to keep the car cool and it worked so good I had to put a thermostat in it. I thought it was hard on things too, but my motor lasted all season. I changed oil every 3rd race and never had any "wash down". I could honestly tell that it had more power on the bottom end and came off the corner better. I had a BG TM stage 3 gas carb that worked great, but to try the alcohol I bought a cheap Speedway carb,and like I said it ran better. And nobody ever told me about draining the carb so I never did and never had any trouble. The other reason also was that I always ran Sunoco Blue and when I switched to alcohol I used more but actually spent less that I did on gas. I'm by no means an expert or a know all so I don't know if I'm just lucky with what I had or what, but this year I'm going to get a better alcohol carb and try that. Just sharing some of my experiences!

[This message has been edited by kb42 (edited 03-07-2000).]

shakin
Administrator
posted March 12, 2000 05:22 PM
The whole reason that alot of the latemodels are running gas now is because of the long races. The 100 lap races cant be finished on methanol. Weight percentages are a big issue also, but on the 20 and 30 lappers, the alky can be beat.


GnarlyCar
Member
posted March 21, 2000 10:50 PM
Been running a Wissota mod for 3 yrs now and am a big Wissota DLM fan...I don't know of any Wissota guys in either class regularly running on gas. Everyone runs meth..

I normally run about 30-35 shows a year and have cleaned my carb only twice a year for the last 3 yrs, with no trouble at all. I haven't even replaced any parts in it in that time. Running a KSE tandem pump set-up, again under the same maintenance schedule, with no problems over 3 yrs. Fuel costs are a bit lower overall compared to running 40% less HP in a street stock on gas, but never having run a mod on it I can't compare the HP. I change oil after 2 shows (sponsorship helps there), but know a lot of guys that run 4 without trouble. As far as being hard to start, I run MSD ignition throughout and a Gearte carb, and the thing fires without touching the throttle after sitting all week. I know some guys that gotta squirt gas into thier carbs to get them fired when they get to the track, but after they warm up the first time they don't have to do it anymore all night.
After spending 6 yrs trying to cool my street stock on gas, I can't understand why anyone would want to bother with it if they didn't have to.

Just my opinion...could be all wet..
Matt

[This message has been edited by GnarlyCar (edited 03-21-2000).]

jammin
Administrator
posted March 22, 2000 11:22 AM
What kind of upper cyl lube do you use Gnarly?


Subbey27
Member
posted March 22, 2000 12:24 PM
I put a new Deamon alky carb on to start last season, The only time I drained it was the first couple of nights to change jets. When I finished the season I tipped it upside down and dumped the fuel out. I took it apart two nights ago to freshen it for this year and it looked as good as new. I have used Red Line alky lube And Klotz Fuel lube in the past, last year I used only Klotz. When I didn't use fuel lube the carb would get the white powdery oxidation and the squirters would stick, with the lube no problems.


GnarlyCar
Member
posted March 24, 2000 01:15 AM
Jammin,
Have never used any sort of fuel lube.. I know guys that do regularly, the Klotz and Red Line stuff, but I haven't seen any need for the stuff myself so far. It might be the fuel I'm using, I dunno, but I haven't had any fuel related problems in 3 yrs with the stuff. I'm not gonna mess with it. Incidentally, the fuel I'm running has been Speedway Int'l methanol. Seems to be good stuff.

Matt

X-1R Guy
Member
posted April 10, 2000 02:22 PM
ALCOHOL FUELS


RIGHT at this point it might be as well to point out to readers
that the handling of alcohol fuel, even in small quantities, is
dangerous since poisonous Methyl Alcohol is the basis of most
of these fuels.

In some cases to prevent it being used for drinking an additive is
used, called Pyridine, about one half per cent being the amount.

This gives it a nasty smell and a vile taste, but pure fuel is, of
course, without this deterrent.

The problem still remains, however, since it can get into the
system by absorption through the skin or cuts, and can be
inhaled from exhaust gases.

The effects are cumulative and if enough build up is allowed it
oxidizes forming Formaldehyde causing blindness and insanity.

The use of rubber gloves, avoiding splashing and handling in
confined space and in general treating with commonsense,
however, reduces the risks to acceptable proportions.

Should, however, any get in the eyes immediate medical
attention is necessary.

For those who have not handled alcohol fuel it might be as well
to say it is a clear, colorless liquid, cool in touch, with an odor
different from petrol, and has an attraction to moisture in the
atmosphere.

ADVANTAGES AND DISADVANTAGES

Let us now investigate the advantages and disadvantages of
going over to this fuel, and at all times taking petrol as our
reference level, having in mind the basic requirements of fuel in
the heat engine.

The first question must be is it easy to obtain and the answer is
there are a number of garages retailing the fuel, in certain cases
with other fuels added in specified quantities.

Having obtained the fuel, as already explained, it must be
handled with care and commonsense.

There is no real problem in keeping in store any quantity left
over from one meeting to another, provided it is kept in a can, or
tank for that matter, with the cap kept on during the store period,
which can extend into years, contrary to popular belief.

COST

Cost of the alcohol depends on what other fuels have been
incorporated, but as guide pure alcohol is, in small quantities,
about just over half as much again as the cost of top grade
petrol. You must bear in mind at this point, however, you will
require double the amount of alcohol as compared to petrol for
reasons which will be explained later.

Another point to consider is that alcohol is a solvent and so far
as certain paints are concerned it acts as a perfect paint stripper.
Alcohol also has a very thorough scouring effect on tanks, pipe
lines and so on, not forgetting it can on certain

types of fiberglass tanks cause them to disintegrate into a rather
nasty sticky mess.

CONSUMPTION

Consumption of alcohol will be, in rough figures, double that of
petrol, due to the calorific value being about half that of petrol.

The correct air-fuel ratio for petrol is 14.1 to 15.1, but for
alcohol it is 7.1 to 9.1 so that means we must pass at least twice
the weight of fuel, in the case of alcohol, to heat the same
amount of air to the same temperature as we need for petrol.

Since the specific gravity of the two fuels is near enough the
same it means in effect we have to pass through the jets double
the quantity of the fuel.

Apart from doubling up the flow capacity of the jets, and we
would add here that this does not mean doubling up the diameter
of
the jet hole as many people think, but, in fact, increasing the
diameter by 1.4 times or if you like by 40 per cent since a little
thought will remind you of the fact you are dealing with the area
of the hole in the jet and not the diameter.

It is of little use increasing the capacity of the jet to pass double
the amount of fuel unless steps have been taken to establish that
the fuel lines, taps, float chambers and so on are also capable of
passing double the fuel and the actual flow should be measured.

RICH SIDE

Now unlike petrol you will find alcohol fuel will continue to
provide increased power for a mixture well above the ideal
mixture strength and you can always tend, therefore, to jet up on
the rich side, and so avoid any possible chance of running into
troubles through weak mixture causing burnt valves and holed
pistons.

This larger amount of fuel compared to petrol and especially as
it is a fuel with much higher latent heat value tends to do two
things. The density of the charge entering the engine is higher
than petrol and a greater weight of mixture is therefore being
exploded.

This is a fuel with a large cooling effect provided by part of it
evaporating after it has reached the combustion chamber and so
tending to cool the valves, piston and so on.

Some may well get into the combustion chamber as liquid, due
to the reduction in temperature of the induction system, pipes,
carburetor, etc., and so extending the cooling effect, in the
process counteracting the effect of the high internal temperature.

In view of this amount of fuel entering the chamber, with
possibly some of it in liquid form, the ignition system must be
beyond reproach since if the spark is weak the mass of fuel will
just soak the plug and then at once ignition troubles arise
affecting starting in particular.

Owing to the use of alcohol a higher compression ratio can be
used with this fuel as compared with petrol, another
consideration is the type of plug used which will be a hotter type
than used before with petrol.

NINETEEN TO ONE

We have just mentioned the higher possible compression ratio
used with alcohol and the limit that can be used with any
particular fuel depends on the tendency of the fuel to detonate.

As a rough guide the ratio for petrol is limited to about ten to
one, or with certain additives to as much as 12 to one. With
alcohol, however, you can go up to 19 to one or higher in certain
cases. (For all practical purposes however, 14 to one should be
considered the maximum usable ratio in modern short stroke
automotive engines.)

The possible use of a much higher ratio, of course, means we get
a higher power output from the engine, and this, in fact, is
almost the main advantage of alcohol fuel.

DETONATION

Detonation with alcohol fuel is really not a problem, but
pre-ignition is, or could be unless the mixture is kept well on the
rich side.

The reason for this is that if the mixture is on the weak side it
burns slowly and can still be so doing when the exhaust valve
has opened which then becomes overheated. This in turn ignites
the next charge before the correct time, the whole process
becoming a chain reaction causing even more rise in temperature
and so it goes on until the piston holes and other damage then
follows.

The first signs of this process taking place are a loss of power, a
general rise quite quickly of overall temperature, the head in
particular.

To avoid this, run on the rich side always and use plugs with a
good heat capacity.

It might be worth mentioning at this point that an engine set up
correctly for running on alcohol, even though on a rich mixture,
will be found to be (compared to petrol), a much cleaner
running engine inside the cylinder head, and provided the
ignition side is up to its job there will be less fouling of plugs
than on petrol.

IGNITION SETTING

Due to the different rate of burning of alcohol compared to
petrol the ignition setting will have to be changed.

It will have to be advanced and the amount necessary will
depend on the shape of the cylinder head and general design.

For example, on a well designed hemi-head an extra five to six
degrees might well be enough, whereas on a poor designed head
it might be something like 15 degrees.

Optimum ignition setting is tied up with the air-fuel ratio and it
will be found that with alcohol it is not so critical as with petrol,
that is to say the drop off of power is not so progressive as will
be seen later.

STARTING

Provided the engine is set up for running on alcohol correctly
there should be little trouble in starting except perhaps on a very
cold day and it should be possible to start up on the fuel mix
used for the actual racing.

The main problem, due to the cooling effect of the fuel, is to get
the engine to operating temperature in the short time available
from fire-up to staging.

For this reason so far as motor cycle type engines are concerned,
you will note,

in many cases, the finning on the cylinder barrels and heads is
almost eliminated. This, by the way, also helps to increase the
power to weight ratio, or if you like tends to counteract the
weight of the extra amount of fuel carried as compared to petrol.


LIMIT

From reading this far, you should have come to the conclusion
that if your engine is now on its limit running on petrol, while
large increases of power are obtainable by the use of higher
compression ratios it is possible to get a reasonable increase in
power output, ten per cent or so, with the existing ratio,
provided you make quite certain you get enough fuel through to
the engine and, in fact, that you tend to run on the rich side.

Once you have gone over to alcohol and obtained satisfactory
running, you have commenced an extension of your power
output by anything up to 25 per cent as you adapt the engine to
run with the new fuel.

The rather attractive feature that you tend, even with the increase
of power to stand less chance of doing damage to the engine
than when on petrol should also be considered.

FINAL POINT

One final point to consider. If you change over to

alcohol from petrol where you were using a mineral oil, it is not
necessary to change over to a castor based oil. For modern
engines, the present type additive mineral oils offer a higher
performance level than the additive castor based oils, and under
controlled conditions the light viscosity oils have an advantage
where the warm up time is limited.


gofast27
Member
posted May 07, 2000 12:27 AM
[QUOTE]I can see that no one has really answered your question give you alot of info but not what you asked for. ok the answer to your question your gonna have to change your spark plugs,fuel pump to a higher pressure of atleast 11?15 bypass or fuel regulater your also gonna need a fuel pressure guage if you dont already have one, and a good carb. the diff. ive been told between between alky and gas in terms of power is if you have 11to1 compression on alky you need 12to1 on gas to make the same power.


CHASSISCAT
Member
posted May 10, 2000 09:26 PM
SEVERAL YEARS AGO WE RAN METHENOL IN A 355 SMALL BLOCK. WE HAD A C $ S 750 ALCHY CARB, A 9 LB PRESSURE FUEL SYSTEM AT THE CARB, A 6 VALVE HOLLEY MANUAL PUMP. FED THE PUMP WITH A -12 LINE AND FED THE CARB WITH A -10 LINE . WE ALSO RAN KLOTZ ADDITIVE AND SUFFERED NO FUEL RELATED DAMAGE. THE IGNITION WAS A MALLORY UNILITE DIST.WITH A HY-FIRE V BOX. WE HAVE FOUND THAT WITH THE AMOUNT OF FUEL THAT YOU USE RUNNING ALKY THAT A HEI DOES NOT HAVE SUFFICIANT SPARK. HOPE THIS HELPS AS WE ARE JUST BACK YARD RACERS THAT LEARN FROM TRIAL AND ERROR( MORE ERROR THAN TRIAL SOMETIMES)


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