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Author Topic:   alternative to crate motors - will this work?
merf23
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 23
posted November 11, 2005 05:39 AM  
Build your own motor as now. Before the first race, the track applies its own engine seals to head/oil pan/intake, etc. At the end of the season, the engines come apart for tech (or halfway, whatever), maybe on a non-race day when people are not worn out, tire, aggrevated. If you have a problem mid season, call the tech inspector and remove parts in his presence for inspection, repair at home and get resealed before next race.
This would be for the regulars, no seals = no points
Will this concept work? It seems a good way to 1) keep people honest 2) reduce the need for involved tear downs late at night 3) improve the accuracy of inspections

Any input would be apprecitaed. I am thinking of presenting this idea to our track manager at the winter rules meeting.

pforsythe
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 134
posted November 11, 2005 08:05 AM  
Seems like that is a pretty cool idea. I would think as long as the tech guy is fair and the seals aren't something generic that can be replaced the idea would have some validity.

racer17j
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 5401
posted November 11, 2005 10:54 AM  
Another problem id that a Tech person would have to knoe wvery part of every motor at the track, Chevy, Ford or Dodge. With the crate motors he only has to know one set of specs for each MFG.
I know all tracks have a class with a cam rule, who has seen someone get DQ'd for an illegal cam? I watched 2 inspectors measure cam lift at the valev and they come up with 3 different numbers, all three were illegal, they let the guy win because they were not sure how to tech the hydraulic cam. If they use the GM motors, or Ford or Dodge or a mix he has to know how to tech at the most 3-4 motors. If nothing else he can compair two motor parts from the top cars and see if one is different.

Ego Racing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 735
posted November 11, 2005 11:56 AM  
Also it would be hard to build a 350hp 400ftlbs of torqe motor for $3000. Now throw in that it is a NEW motor, no used crank, rods or cast pistons.

Koolaid
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 86
posted November 11, 2005 03:28 PM  
Ego has a point - a lot would depend on what the engine rules are for your track and what you are attempting to inspect. If everything is being held bone stock things might get difficult - the track around me is pretty much any engine as long as it's castiron heads and intake and a non-roller - those would be very easy to tech - the roller setup is going to look the same if it's GM or Chrysler or Ford. If they are more restrictive then that you might have some issues.

Also as far as the no seals = no points deal. If an out of towner shows up with a non-teched engine I think people will get angry if he takes the win money with an illegal engine regardless of points.

merf23
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 23
posted November 11, 2005 03:48 PM  
Our track was considering using sealed motors built by a local builder...that didnt fly.
I thought this would be a good way to improve the inspection process. I like the idea of GM crates, but I dont see it happening anytime soon due to concern for the local engine builders (who charge $9500 for a 300hp street stock motor BTW)
The engines wouldnt need a preseason tech, i figure if your illegal at the end, you get dq'd for the season.
If your tech guys are not knowlegable or bias, they will still be that way with seals.
I was thinking maybe seals with serial numbers so you could have 2 motors (just a thought)

racer17j
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 5401
posted November 11, 2005 04:56 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by racer17j:
i'll show you what kinda power and reliabilty you could build for 3200
dart heads 800
cam 250
block work 300
406 rotationg as. 1819
eagle steel 4340 cranks
eagle 4340 30d steel rods
wisco forged pistons. now turn that 5300 just like a crate and see if you can't make over 350 hp and 400 ft toque. that sucker will smoke a crate like a cheap cigar and last just as long

You forgot pushrods, rocker arms, rocker studs, poly locks, guide plates, gaskets, block, intake, oil pan, valve covers , distributor, rings, engine bolt set, oil pump and pick up, cam button, etc etc etc.

It isn't the hp per dollar that makes the crate a good deal. It's the parity and opportunity to win that makes it worth the money. Maybe the chance to watch the guy who kept claiming setup is everything get smoked because his horsepower monster isn't in his car anymore.

Leaf
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 40
posted November 11, 2005 07:41 PM  
Dave got started a good list of what you forgot but he missed...........

TIME

For some of us our time is valuable, set up, maintenance and crash damage repair as well as time actually at the track is a lot a week

[This message has been edited by Leaf (edited November 11, 2005).]

keyz28
Dirt Newbie

Total posts: 3
posted November 15, 2005 12:20 AM  
The only deal with crates is the fact I can take some time and build my engine how I want over time rather than forking out the price in one lump.

hobby39
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 113
posted November 15, 2005 05:14 AM  
One of the local tracks here lets you show up and run then if you finish in the top 4 you have to have your engine whistled and pumped or if you want before you run, if it passes they put seals on it. However the track reserves the right to inspect those motors at any time for instance if all of a sudden you look a lot faster then they reinspect it even though it's sealed they also allow protests if another racer wants to put up the money to have another racers engine re looked at.

Ego Racing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 735
posted November 15, 2005 11:42 AM  
quote:
Originally posted by racer17j:
so are you going to make that guy pay back all the money he won by cheating or just take his points ? i'll give you the trophy and $100 points check if you let me build a monster motor and run it all year before you tech it. that doesn't make any kinda of sence at all and whats to keep the guy from running all year and showing up with a legal motor for season champ and say he blew his sealed motor so seal my new one for me. i'll show you what kinda power and reliabilty you could build for 3200
dart heads 800
cam 250
block work 300
406 rotationg as. 1819
eagle steel 4340 cranks
eagle 4340 30d steel rods
wisco forged pistons. now turn that 5300 just like a crate and see if you can't make over 350 hp and 400 ft toque. that sucker will smoke a crate like a cheap cigar and last just as long

We ran out crate against 362ci, aluminum head, dry sump, 14:1 roller motors that they are spending $30,000+ for and we finished 6th. The first week we were 4th. When the track had alot of bite in the heat we started 11th and finished 3rd.

PEwaste
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 27
posted November 15, 2005 01:53 PM  
I know we've heard it can't be done over on 4m.net and I showed you it can. Your big bad crate has been the turnaround to your racing program.

The way I see it, you were running what most guys up here call a Glorified Stock Car Claimer in a class with guys spending $30,000 Plus on there engines. You have been taking a Knife to a gunfight ever since you started. The crate you bought which was the 604, and it r uns right around $4950 for it.

It includes Distributor, Breathers, Kool Nut Rocker arm nuts, Vortec Heads..

Ok... How's this sound, and I'll include everything (There you go Superdave) so that you don't have any questions.
Rotating Assembly
Callies Comp Star 4340 Crank- $499
Callies Comp Star 4340 H Beams- $499
Pro Tru Flat Top Pistons with Rings-$450
Fast Burn GM Aluminum Heads-$1220 from SDPC
H Bearings- $115 (Includes Mains/Rods)
Cam Bearings-$14.99
Pushrods-$26.95
Self Aligning Rocker Arms-$129.95
Oil Pan Kit with Pump/Pickup- $74.99
Valve Covers-$20
Harmonic Balancer-$50
Timing Cover-$10
Valve Cover Breathers-$12.99
HEI Moroso Ignition-$190
Poly Lock's-$25.95 (Not Cool Rocker Nuts)
Custom Cut Hydraulic Roller Camshaft-$225
Hydraulic Roller Lifters-$199.95
Aluminum Intake-$189.99
Oil Restrictors-$8.99
Bore/Hone with Plate-$85-125 (I'll figure high since "it can't be done cheaper")
Balance Rotating-$175
Bolt Kit-$75
Gasket Kit-$35
Did I forget anything?

How about $300 for Gas to and from machine shop, block cost, and any other misc stuff needed.

$4672.75 and it'll smoke any Crate you've got. You've got to realize that just because it comes with a bunch of great GM stuff doesn't mean it is better.
Now you could go with Eagle Rods and crank and save around 300, along with going with Dart Iron Eagles and that would knock another 420 off your price and make the same or more power (But you want apples to apples). Another area to cut costs and not lose any HP or reliablity would be to go to a Solid Lifter camshaft for $225 and Solid lifters at $60 which will save you over another 100 dollars.

So without the $300 for your gas to get the block, buy it, and take it to the machine shop you've got $3500 invested in a motor that very well would produce more than 500 HP and be just as reliable as your crate motor.

Ego Racing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 735
posted November 15, 2005 04:02 PM  
It is just really really clear you are just out to bash the crate motor. You have followed me to two different forums! Again you are still not putting everything into perspective, you blow that motor, the rod is through the block, the pistons hit the head and the crank is broke you are out $4600+. When a friend blew his crate motor just like above GM took it and $2500 for trade on a new one.
I have a 14 degree Pontiac aluminum head 431ci motor that I have a grand total of about $5200 in. It would destroy your junk motor with plug wires pulled off but that is not the point!
The point is it puts everyone in the same playing feild. Not everyone can build a 400hp motor for under $5500. Not everyone can afford a $30,000 flat top cast iorn head motor like the National late model series runs. It was even posted on here by engine builders that they could not do it. Jasper Engines could not even do it using used blocks and heads and compete with GM so they dropped the line. I would like to see one of your $1500 motors run against the $30,000 National late Model Series motors that they turn to 9000rpm. Like the crate motors have. Bring your motor To East Bay and run ith the Late Models and see where you end up. Our record speaks for itself. We ran at Screven earlier this year and Qualified 13th for there super show with our crate motor.
For ease of TECH, COST and for the drivers who can drive and do not need a big motor to help loosen there car when they cannot the crate motor is not an easy animal to beat.

PEwaste
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 27
posted November 15, 2005 08:34 PM  
I have taken everything into perspective and now you go to bash me? I didn't follow you, I've been a member of this forum for quite some time. My opinion is just different and you're not accepting that fact that racers build motors that run a lot better than your crate cheaper and more reliable. I noticed in another post that you said the 602 has "SERIOUS RELIABILITY PROBLEMS past 5500 RPM"... Now come on.. I thought the crate was the only way to race.

Don't be so one sided and you'd see. I've explored the crate and building my own a lot this year already and know what is easier, cheaper, and better.. FOR ME. Now if your so lack for time and help, then yes, the crate is a good deal until you over rev it and start breaking parts, and need to send it back to get fixed.

PS... Stick that $2500 you just spent on that new crate motor into the motor you threw a rod out of and you can fix it for half that. You just don't get my point. If you want to debate the two then do it without bashing. I have not once bashed your beloved GM High Price Crate motor.

Ego Racing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 735
posted November 16, 2005 05:42 AM  
The 5500rpm is the rpm max that they are built for! Turning any motor above the cam rpm range is a waste. If you put the 602 on the dyno you will find it looses power quickly above the specified RPM range. I have seen the sheets on the 604 fall 100hp between 6700-6850 rpm. You said your machine work was done by JR motorsports, to buy the block for your motor from them is $1495 per there site. Add that to yout motor and it is over $6000. You can short cut all you want for machine work and save money but it dosn't make the motor equal.
For a level playing field the crate motor can't be betten.
I have seen it many times, you build your own motor and someone with $$$$$ wants to win so they spend $15-25,000 or more for a dyno tuned and built motor and wins every week, then drivers start crying about the money he spent. The fans get bored because the same guy wins and they stop watching.
The best rules we ran under were: 1 carb, no NOS, Blowers and Turbos, no dry sumps. There was a different winner every week. The track wanted to "lower costs" changed the rules: Chevy motors were 350-357 ci max TRW #2256 flat top pistons, Hyd flat tappet cam, 4412 carb, 50lb crank, Stroke to bore must match, Stock heads (no VORTEC) 1.94/1.5 valve only. Ford and Dodge had like rules. There is a builder in the area that is building them and selling them for $18,000. There are 11 of his motors in the class right now, there only 11 cars in the class. These are in open wheel modifieds. EVERY TRACK IN OUR AREA THAT TRIES TO COME UP WITH CHEAP MOTOR RULES ENDS UP MAKING A MOTOR BUILDER ALOT OF $$$$. There is a mini stock class here that runs $20,000 toyota motors that they get from a builder in Califorina. This has a "no non stock parts" rule for the motor to "lower costs". The series owners were scrambling to find something to make it a race again. Now when you win weekly every week past the first, in a row, you have to add 25lbs. There are two brothers that just trade off each week. Now they are trying to fond something else. There were over 40 cars in the series now there are 9.
There has to be a way to keep costs down and keep someone from spending huge amounts of money. Our local late maodel are running $30,000 + motors for $800 to win and an $800 championship. If you ron every week and the championship it would be $23,200. Not even enough for the motor not including the tires and other expenses.

[This message has been edited by Ego Racing (edited November 16, 2005).]

PEwaste
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 27
posted November 16, 2005 09:35 AM  
Like I said to a friend, if you go to all crates then what is the fun in that? Isn't racing about doing the best with what you got? That's whats great, guy A with a great chassis and Junkyard motor can win while guy B with a medeocre chassis and good motor can win just as easily.

PS... I don't buy the blocks from JR's for that simple reason. You can buy them all over the internet for $100-$150. Please, know your facts before shooting off about the crate motor. If it is designed for 5500 then I might as well stick a stock 350 in there and call it good.

Like I said, just my opinion, waste of money. You don't understand the concept of rules, and you can build (what is the number now, $18,000, when it was just $30,000 last post) these motors if you like but when the tech inspector has a peek you'll be tossed like a football in the superbowl.

The class with 11 cars should tell you that it isn't the cost, it's that people don't want to be equal. It's always nice to stick that motor in with your own grind of camshaft and know your pulling in with more power, and not spending anymore money.

This subject is beating a dead horse so I'm done. Have your crate and pout when they don't fly. My $3000 for the 602 or $5000 for the 604 is better spent.

Ego Racing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 735
posted November 16, 2005 01:11 PM  
I know the problem now... You have the inability to read with comprehension! The prices you are showing are for two different series I was speaking of. Please re read or as you stated "KNOW YOUR FACTS BEFORE SHOOTING OFF ABOUT SOMETHING!" I can tell you for a fact that the local series that runs with your rules has $15,000 - 18,000 motors running in them. Contact Boyd Engineering or Progressive engines and ask there price for the motors for the southern sportsman series! Or call Speed Pro's and ask them they run the series. These motors would be lapping you and you would be crying about the money they spend on them.

PEwaste
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 27
posted November 16, 2005 05:09 PM  
I'm not comparing series to series. I am comparing the amount spent on a 604 with the HP numbers and reliability to a motor that can be built for the same amount or less and HP and reliability.

FYI If they brought these motors around here they wouldn't get far. $18,000 is pretty hard to spend when you've got rules that clarify an OEM or OEM Replacement crank (Which rules out the 32 LB cranks), Stock appearing I beams (A little room to play there), Flat top pistons which you can only make so light, flat tappet camshaft, no titanium valve train components, stamped steel rocker arms, 9-1 compression, Cast OEM Heads and Intake with no porting or polishing at all.. If you can peak the 425 mark and be 100% legal then you've done something. I imagine there are real high dollar motors down there, but they aren't quite the same rules... and if they are making 500 HP and you are only making 400 then your already shot again.

Like I said, it's beating a dead horse. It's an option to anyone to run one (which I think is needed), but for the money I can build something with more power and it be more reliable.

Ego Racing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 735
posted November 16, 2005 06:50 PM  
I agree totaly on the price of those motors. A friend is part owner of the series and they are going o the crate motors to drop cost back down.
The rules as of now are 50lb crank minimum, TRW 2256 pistons with NO machine work, Stock apeering stock length press pin rods, Flat tappet cam, Stock heads no vortec 1.94/1.5 exhaust, stock replacement springs only. Roller rockers are ok. Stainless valves or stock replacement only, Edelbrock Performer intake, Holley 4412 with choke tower, Stock or stock replacement distributor NO MSD OR LIKE TYPE. No porting, polishing or lightening of any kind. No titanium period. These are the $15-18,000 Motors! Is that a joke or what! Except for the intake and cam it is less of a motor than the 602. My point on this is there will ALWAYS be someone who wants to win at all costs and will spend the money to do it.

racer17j
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 5401
posted November 16, 2005 07:35 PM  
They are spending too much on nothing ($18,000 motors) I'd like to know what is costing so much. Stock GM Heads without any port work and stock valves, with those pistons will never make 500 HP.

[This message has been edited by PEwaste (edited November 16, 2005).]

jammin
Dirt Administrator

Total posts: 6244
posted November 16, 2005 08:18 PM  
That was my point about the cost. I can pull plenty of power from a $3000 motor and if it does break usually it's a lot less than $2500 to fix AND you can buy the parts a little at a time. Not $2500 at once. The crates are a great idea in theory but in practice they would simply put me and others out of racing.

Ego Racing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 735
posted November 17, 2005 01:46 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by racer17j:
ego keep in mind that this is the street/hobby forum not late model or mod yes you may have guys spending 10's of 1000's on motors in those classes but in this class that guys race for 2-300 to win you don't see that. my gripe is making me run a $3000 motor is going to drive more guys away then it's going to bring in when you get right down to it other then the fact that they are new parts that 602 crate is nothing better then me pulling the 350 out of my pickup and going racing.also the fact that now the 10 years worth of parts i've been hunt'n for and saving up are useless to me. thats even more money out of my pocket also with the crate option on the class i want to run they have an open 4 brl rule that adds another grand on top of it. i just think crate should be an option not mandated in the entry level classes

The $15-18,000 motors I pointed out above is for the Southern Sportsman Series which are in reality street stocks, They are only allowed a 9 inch ford rear due to gear selection but are not allowed to run floated rears. They must run steel bodies that match the frame. These cars run for $500 to win. and run 12 times a year.
The point I am making is alot of what Jammin said and also that unless they specify every part in the motor someone with a dyno will find 10-20 extra hp and get a ton of money for them. It is the same in EVERY series from Mini Sotcks to Late Models. That is why yhis series had 48 cars last year when almost everyone was building there own motors, now the same 3-4 guys are in the top 5 every week. Alot of guys got tired of finishing toward the rear becase of money. They are either running a only a few races ro sold there cars and are not running any more. The series owners contacted everyone and asked about going to the 602 with VERY STRICT tech if they would come back, about 90% said they would. 5 guys told him if they do it they wanted to place an order for a new car or would start looking for one as soon as they made it a rule. The guys who are complaining about going to them are the guys with the big $$ motors. Every series that runs here is getting priced right out of existence. Sunshine Speedway in St Petersburg was a prime example. $15,000 motors in street stock and mini stocks, $30,000 motors in Modifieds and Limited Late Models/Sportsman and Roush, Yates and Childress motors in there Super Late Models and tech guys that would look the other way more often that not and an owner that would wave cars past tech. The last week they ran the track there were 20 cars total there in 7 classes. The V8 bomber points leader blew his motor that night bad, there was part of the rod and piston on the track, it was a domed piston and a Carillo rod.
NOTHING will work if the teck guys do not do there job. Crates are an option and are in my opinion WELL worth the money.

racer17j
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 5401
posted November 17, 2005 08:36 PM  
a $200-300 claim or tech inspector would take care of your problem alot faster then a crate would. thats just like my class we used to be called claimer stocks 1500 for the entire car nobody was spending big money then they droppped the claim and in came the racing shocks and springs,setback chassis,12 bolt rear ends and stuff .a $2000 turn key car would win just about every nite in the begining then when the claim was dropped it took that much in just a roller to just compete then a $18-2500 motor. got to the point that they only had average of 8 cars last year. next year they changed the rules now to lock it back down . no racing shcoks and springs anymore vacume rule and no 12 bolt rear ends unless it was stock for make and model. kinda makes me wish i hadn't sold out now

[This message has been edited by racer17j (edited November 17, 2005).]

    

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