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Author Topic:   If you could write the rules...
OvalRocket34
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 81
posted August 25, 2005 03:33 PM  
Lets say you were handed the opportunity to write the rule book for your track. Your goal, to cut costs in a class that has gotten out of control, namely the street stocks. What would you do?

sidebiteu259
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 56
posted August 25, 2005 04:37 PM  
Must pass IQ test before you can race

Eljojo
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 968
posted August 25, 2005 04:50 PM  
ROFL!

cobb
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 131
posted August 25, 2005 05:13 PM  
would any of us pass that test??????

Donald g man
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 14
posted August 25, 2005 06:57 PM  
Two barrel with a specific size base plate opening, stock intake with port matching, any cast iron head, 1.25" valve springs, solid cam, roller rockers, 9.5 comp ratio, 360 ci, use a 7" rim limit and 8 1/2" fork over the tire, 3300 lb with driver, 108" min wheel base, stock location suspension and all the normal safety requirements. The carb limits the motor and the small tire limits the HP to the ground.

J3
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 188
posted August 25, 2005 07:37 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by cobb:
would any of us pass that test??????

What test????

DangerZoneRacing
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 176
posted August 25, 2005 09:28 PM  
A TEST? And I didnt even get to study!!! Must be a pop quiz? lol.

J3
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 188
posted August 25, 2005 11:49 PM  
That's it. I am gonna fell. I will be getting sent to the Principles office again.

redneck racing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 860
posted August 26, 2005 01:36 AM  
CRATE MOTORS, that would be cost efficient in the long run. Eddie

tin cup
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 40
posted August 26, 2005 01:49 PM  
Yep, I would go with crate motor's. too. Maybe a 3310 Holley carb or 4150. 15 x 10 wheel's with asphalt take-off's.

robhbk24
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 372
posted August 26, 2005 04:33 PM  
first get ahold of the sanctioning body and get the old tech inspector fired and replaced, because if he had been doing his job than the class wouldn't have gotten out of hand.oh wait i did that already,lol,kinda feel bad for the old guy though i really did enjoy messing with him,

Steve Dupree
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 316
posted August 26, 2005 05:11 PM  
Well i dont want any part of inforcing the rules or writing them for that fact. I just want to know what they are and how far i can stretch them to have the advantage... Always be leagal a cheat is worthless!!!!!!!!!

racer17j
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 5390
posted August 26, 2005 08:39 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by J3:
What test????

Need i really say anymore

CLBaker25
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 193
posted August 29, 2005 12:55 PM  
If I ran a track I would go with IMCA. I would run a modified, I-stock and hobby stock track. So the rules I would use for the street stock class would be IMCA stock car rules.

Mikey14
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 265
posted August 30, 2005 09:49 AM  
spec carb (4412) stock intake or spec ( torker ?) HEI dist, no MSD, stock exhaust manifolds no mufflers. MANDATORY SWAP RULE ON CARB, INTAKE AND DISTRIBUTOR. each week a set number of drivers finishing on the lead lap swap atleast one item.

9.3 to 1 comp rule, pump gas only. No additives or oxygen producing substances allowed.
3000 lbs. 108 inch wheelbase, American racer tires 8 inch wide. stock clutch and steel flywheel. automatics must use unaltered converter. no direct drives.

9 inch rears can be swapped, otherwise stock suspension parts for make and model. i.e. no nova lowers on metrics.

Normal saftey rules.

Just off the top of my head.

pforsythe
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 133
posted August 30, 2005 10:31 AM  
Well Oval, I guess they should start with stock mount front shocks, no chrysler rear leafs, and stock unaltered holley 4412 carb.
wink ,wink

STREET16
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 158
posted August 30, 2005 02:04 PM  
Pet peeve - NO RULES THAT THE TRACK CANNOT ENFORCE! If you have a weight rule - have scales, if you have a displacement rules - have a whissler, etc.
As far as the IQ test, I have seen doctors and lawyers on the track, But I haven't seen any psychiatrist. Hmmm.....

[This message has been edited by STREET16 (edited August 30, 2005).]

fastrack1
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 145
posted August 30, 2005 07:46 PM  
I think tracks need to get a away from this 50lb for this and 100 for that .Make the rules enforce the rules keep it reasonable.The tech man sometimes really dont know what the car is suppose to weigh with all the plus and minus weights .One thing that chaps may hiney is when they say well we need the cars. That is a catch 22 question.I have seen tracks have a class with good car counts and let 1 car come in that wasnt by the rules by a long shot and kill the class in 2 yrs .As the old saying goes hey, I CAN GAIN 1 MORE CAR IN RETURN THEY RAN 3 OFF .

Mikey14
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 265
posted August 31, 2005 06:23 AM  
pforsythe

Didnt forget about the ford mopar guys, just waiting for one of ya to chime in.

You can still swap 4412's. Full technical inspection of distributor or intake on the night those are the teched items for ford and mopar guys. No MSD, no chip, no aftermarket coil, no porting etc.

Where possible, the track would own one set of stock distributor & intake for the most common engine combo for Ford/Mopar.

We have maybe 2 fords and one mopar show up at our track and our regisitered cars are around 90. So this would be more of an exceptional process in our case.

Eljojo
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 968
posted August 31, 2005 06:55 PM  
Ok-I'll take a shot at it....You said for a class that has gotten out of control----makes me think there is an existing field of cars---but they now need to be brought into check.
I'd look at what the cars were now and what was the original intent of the class. For instance, If there are a couple of guys running Darts and most everyone else on stock heads...mandate stock heads. If Most everyone is running four barrels and a few are on big double pumpers, Call a PN 3310 or 4150 vacuume secondary and let the few follow the crowd. If the cars are now on 10 inch rims, don't all of a sudden put those cars on 8 inch rims! Affordable racing is an oxymoron, kinda like military intellegence or giant shrimp. But it can get priced out of the program-mostly because us racers are our own worst enemy. So lets look at some areas where racers can cut costs:
open chamber heads burn pump gas
Dynaflow headers from the Advance or Autozone
Towel City retreads
Weight rule at 3200 all steel body parts-home made ok but must be stock appearing
suspension parts---
The best way to save the racers money is to tech---- and tech to the absolute letter and allow the tech man the athority to disqualify a racer who has neglected the intent of the rule!

stealth32
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 25
posted August 31, 2005 07:13 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by Mikey14:
spec carb (4412) stock intake or spec ( torker ?) HEI dist, no MSD, stock exhaust manifolds no mufflers. MANDATORY SWAP RULE ON CARB, INTAKE AND DISTRIBUTOR. each week a set number of drivers finishing on the lead lap swap atleast one item.

9.3 to 1 comp rule, pump gas only. No additives or oxygen producing substances allowed.
3000 lbs. 108 inch wheelbase, American racer tires 8 inch wide. stock clutch and steel flywheel. automatics must use unaltered converter. no direct drives.

9 inch rears can be swapped, otherwise stock suspension parts for make and model. i.e. no nova lowers on metrics.

Normal saftey rules.

Just off the top of my head.


Maybe on a hobby stock you could have these rules. With rules like this you would have a bunch of cheaply built street stocks if you could even get any at all....in my area people would either quit or just move to different class. Remember street stocks isn't for beginners and isn't supposed to be cheap. Hobby stock is for beginners with all the limitations.

dirttracker98
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 284
posted September 04, 2005 07:58 AM  
quote:
Originally posted by OvalRocket34:
Lets say you were handed the opportunity to write the rule book for your track. Your goal, to cut costs in a class that has gotten out of control, namely the street stocks. What would you do?

a few simple rules! 1.run what you brung.2.no whiners allowed.3.if you ain't brung enuff,quit whineing & spend some money to make it go fast & comeback next week.4.no whiners allowed.5.put a $250.00 claim on the complete car & the claimer has to swap cars with the claimee!6.no whiners allowed!
NO WHINERS ALLOWED!!

racin78p
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 333
posted September 06, 2005 08:50 AM  
Enforce the rules. It doesn't matter if they are "outlaw" rules or IMCA or NASCAR. If the rules are not enforced, it doesn't mean squat.

As a side note, I have the opportunity to stretch the rules and run/spend more on my factory stock (there's a contradiction in terms) and have done so for two years. I am now beginning to believe that using IMCA or some other sanctioning body's rules would be a good idea to help bring the costs down and keep them down for all racing idiots like me. It's called "claimer". I'm hooked and want to continue running, but I could use a serious break in the costs of keeping a competitive car on the race track week in and week out.

I hope everyone is having a good year with their racing adventures so far!

Race on.

------------------
racin78p
if it ain't fun, then don't run

CLBaker25
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 193
posted September 06, 2005 01:42 PM  
IMCA all the way. Consistent rules any where you run.

OvalRocket34
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 81
posted September 06, 2005 05:32 PM  
I like the IMCA rules. Main reason is because it does away with the Camaros and that where our biggest problem is. Unfortunately banning the camaros will kill car count, but big brother hasn't ruled that option out ...

dirttracker98
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 284
posted September 07, 2005 03:59 AM  
if there is enuff cameros the track could make a camero only class for them,espically if there is over 20 of them,if that started happening you can bet your last dollar that IMCA would jump on that class with both feet to sanction them.

dirttracker98
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 284
posted September 07, 2005 04:05 AM  
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Dupree:
Well i dont want any part of inforcing the rules or writing them for that fact. I just want to know what they are and how far i can stretch them to have the advantage... Always be leagal a cheat is worthless!!!!!!!!!
you sound like you agree with no rules,how about 2 rules.1.run what you brung! 2.no whiners allowed!with run what you brung there ain't no worthless cheaters!

[This message has been edited by dirttracker98 (edited September 07, 2005).]

merf23
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 23
posted September 07, 2005 05:00 AM  
A few questions:
1) how much do you want a competitive engine to cost?
2) initial car expense?
3) weekly expenses? (ie tires, , maintenance, body panels)
4) what is your tech crew able to tech?

You must come up with some cost parameters, then adjust the rules to suit.

Things like open diffs, max rear and/or left%, high min weight, stock exhaust manifolds, cam lift, intakes, tire rules etc can be effectively used to control costs and promote great racing. Id much rather see 15 cars closely racing at 17.5 sec/lap than 2-3 cars domintating every week at 16.8 sec/lap

For example, open diff, with max 48% rear will limit any advantage to someone who spends twice on his motor as everyone else.
THis type of rule is especially important if your tech abilities are limited.

OvalRocket34
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 81
posted September 07, 2005 06:13 AM  
Last year we made an attempt at separating the Camaros from the metrics but that was voted down. As far at teching goes, I really have no idea what they are able to do because a majority of the time they don't do anything. I do know i had a 4412 last year that flowed 650cfm and it passed a 2 tracks... makes ya wonder... lol

Personally I'd like to s**** the current rule book and start all over. Unfortunately we'll never see IMCA rules here because we are DIRT sanctioned. Keep the ideas coming though, I think there are some good ideas coming out of this.

CLBaker25
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 193
posted September 07, 2005 07:35 AM  
If you can't get IMCA try USRA. I am not sure on the exact rules but I think you can run the 4412 carb in the USRA stock car class. That sounds like a more viable option for your class.

racer17j
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 5390
posted September 07, 2005 05:57 PM  
I think the open rear thing isn't a cost as far as building the locked rearend - it's to limit the amount of power you can put to the ground - hence no use building a big engine if you can't hook it up. Also on the exhaust manifolds - say cast iron log type with no porting and stock inlet and outlet. That would be easy enough to measure. At first I thought headers were cheaper too - but that allows you to put a ton of money into your heads and really make them flow. I like the open diff idea - seems like an extremely easy thing to tech and really limits what you can put to the ground. The other cheap power limiter would be to use some nice really hard tires that don't hook up well, but would last the whole season. Build a 600hp engine - you can spin the tires as good as the 300hp engines - that would calm some of the expenses down. The one neat one I've seen for some 4 cyl enduros is the amount of camber you can put into the front end as measured with a carpenters square - quick and easy to tech and will also slow people down. No need to remount your balljoints and have someone stretch control arms if you can get the adjustment out of stock units. One final thought - don't bother with claim stuff - write the rules where they can be effectively endorced and people don't have to worry about coming home without an engine.

racer17j
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 5390
posted September 08, 2005 04:09 PM  
Koolaid, thats exactly what i was talking about...i like when cubic brains beats cubic dollars! At out track (1/3 mile pavement), the sportsman class runs hoosier commanche tires (hard as a rock, RR is really good for about 4 weeks, ok for 8), stock 1 7/8 exhaust manifolds, stock 2bbl intake, holley 4412, open diff, no motor setback, .410 cam. The engines probalbly make 300 hp/tq and run for seasons without breaking. There are 3 guys rumored to have spent $9500 on new engines this season...they are 4th 6th and 11th in points. THe points leader spent less than $2000. Last year this division had 13 winners in 4 weeks with lots of side by side racing and good car counts. The top 5 late model guys spend 14-18000 on their engines, 9500 a year on tires, etc, etc...as competitors spend more, the car counts dwindle.
Rear ends are easy to tech, tires are easy to tech, so are rear and left %'s.
Engines are tougher, especially if your crew has limited tech experience and equipment.
As others mentioned, dont write rules that cant be enforced.
Racer17, i read a lot of your posts (you think and analyse well)....i am sure if you had the 307 and everyone else had the 400, you still would have performed very well.

racer17j
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 5390
posted September 09, 2005 06:18 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by stealth32:
Maybe on a hobby stock you could have these rules. With rules like this you would have a bunch of cheaply built street stocks if you could even get any at all....in my area people would either quit or just move to different class. Remember street stocks isn't for beginners and isn't supposed to be cheap. Hobby stock is for beginners with all the limitations.

We've got over 90 registered with a full field each week with rules similiar to these. The exception is the 4412, most guys here run quadrajets. other than that, its stock intake, quadra jets and stock exhaust. This is the entry level class at a 3 class track. mid level is a super stock prefab bodied class running 4412's. Mods are the top class. To often tracks tend to over kill on how many classes they run which spreads out the potential drivers to thin to make any class really sucessful. Most tracks I've seen that have this problem run several classes that the body types all look the same. its hard to tell the difference between hobbies, street stocks, factory stocks or super stocks. to the fan, they are monte carlos and camaros. just my 2 cents. your welcome to your opinion as well. i didnt see an attempt by you to take a shot at the rules though. Thanks for contributing anyway.


racer17j
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 5390
posted September 13, 2005 06:51 PM  
here we used to have 3 classes as well streets,mods and late models but as we racers can do it started to get too exspencive and counts dropped so they started a lower class for hobby stocks then as they have progressed the car count was droping so we started econo stocks. this is as low as we will go here. down the road they run imca hobby on the same nite but they have alot more population to draw from and get 80 cars but 50 of them would more then likley have a hard time keeping up in our econo class. they run 4 mains is the only reason why they still get so many cars . our thinking is we can split the class and get a full field in each and give guys more of a chance to learn and win instead of haveing to race a guy who has won 150 features in that class but can't afford to run up front in the next class so they never move up. there is about a $1500-2000 difference between our econo and hobby to run up front and $5000+ more to run up front in the stock car class. i think you have to have at least 2 stock classes to give a guy something to move up to here our mods are running 600+ hp motors and it's hard to jump from a hobby stock that you may have 5 grand in to a class that takes a motor thats twice that to compete in

    

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