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Author Topic:   setting toe
hoosier transplant
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 104
posted January 25, 2005 06:13 PM  
I have set my toe out two different ways. One, with the left front pointed straight and add toe out on right wheel. Two, set steering wheel straight and split my toe setting equally on left and right. I was reading Circle Track and they suggested a totally different way of setting toe. They said for dirt track cars to turn steering wheel to the right(as like when you were catching the rearend in a turn) 15 degrees and set your toe out to 3/8 inch. Straighten steering wheel back to straight and check that you don't have a toe in. If you do, add 1/16 additional toe out so you won't be squirelly going down the straight away. After you have done this the first time to see what your car wants with the geometry that your car may have, you only need to remember what the straight ahead reading was and to always set toe out to that setting. Has anyone tried this procedure? I'm just curious. I thought I knew how to set toe out but now I'm skeptical about how I've been doing it. I've always been open to "new" ideas and try very hard not to "monkey see, monkey do", but would like some feedback on this.

bobaluuu
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 474
posted January 25, 2005 07:40 PM  
which issue of c.t. was that in, I missed it.I've always suspicioned this way was an appropriate alternative. I even tried it once but chickened out before pulling it off the rack.

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Light it up, Baby!

mod70
unregistered Total posts: 474
posted January 25, 2005 07:52 PM           send a private message to bobaluuu   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/QuoteBBBBBB
I suppose that their reasoning is somewhat sound, but if you set it 3/8 (I go 3/16 to 1/4) 15 deg to the right and straighting takes the toe out, than this would mean that on turn in you actually have neg toe. That sounds strange to me and I would love to go down to the car and test that, but it's not in a state right now to do that. If somebody wants to check this I would love to hear how it comes out.

kevinwardracing
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 35
posted January 25, 2005 08:31 PM  
I'd like to know what issue that was in as well. I didn't see it either.

We always adjusted the LF out 1/8th, making a point to keep the right side as straight as possible with the rear.

hobby10k
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 226
posted January 26, 2005 02:06 AM  
I always just drop her down, point them straight, and then measure and ajust from there, looks like I have some learning to do

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LIVE RACING, WHAT ELSE IT THERE?

hoosier transplant
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 104
posted January 26, 2005 04:02 AM  
I'm not sure which issue the article was in but I found it at Circle Track web site. If you go there, it is on page 4(at the bottom of their page). What they was saying was that after go 15 degrees and setting toe out, if at straight, you have negative toe, that you should add enough toe out to get rid of the negative toe. I don't have my car together yet either but I'm going to try this procedure and just see what happens.

marshalr
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 148
posted January 26, 2005 01:43 PM  
What they are doing is verifying the toe setting and allowing for ackerman effect.
As the arms swing you gain or lose toe depending on what angles your steering arms and spindles form.
I was taught to center the steering, then get the RF pointed straight ahead then set your toe out moving the LF out. THEN go back and check the toe out with the wheels turned left and right, if it ever goes into toe in you must go back and add toe out to your "STATIC TOE" setting. Or you could change the spindle arm lengths, For street stock you gotta adjust that with a torch, easier to add a bit toe out.

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Some People Race For A Living; I Live To Race

[This message has been edited by marshalr (edited January 26, 2005).]

merf23
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 23
posted January 27, 2005 04:43 AM  
We set toe, set bumpsteer then reset toe. We found the right tierod assembly must be a lot shorter than the left side. We got 0 bumpsteer through 5 1/2 inches of trael with stock parts, (though we bent the pitman arm and lowered the idler arm) If you agonize over that perfect 1/8" toe setting but dont bumpsteer the car, you are wasting time. We originally, squared the idler/pitman arm like some say to do...the bumpsteer was 5/8 toe out per inch of bump!
BTW i built a bumpsteer gauge for less than $30...its not magic

#7_Dummy
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 9
posted January 28, 2005 03:31 PM  
Hey man I would like to see your plans or see how you built it.. My email is slotman95@hotmail.com

merf23
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 23
posted January 28, 2005 03:56 PM  
Here is a copy of an email i sent to someone else who asked...If anyone live near connecticut, you are welcome to borrow/copy, photograph, whatever...


I made it from 1" round stock, some rod ends, a flat
piece of aluminum, an old bearing and a welder. Also
a $10 dial indicator from harbor freight or northern
tool.
I bought all the materials from the local s**** yard
for <$20
The aluminum is about 30" x 15" x 3/16 thick and
really flat (this was the hardest piece to find) I
just bungee cord it securely to the tire. The
longacre, etc ones have holes in them to bolt to the
hub, but my way is easier and less chance of
distortion .
I Welded the round stock on a flat surface into a
square with the bottom cross bar having 2" sticking
out on each side. THis measures about 18" high by 15"
wide. THe rod ends i found were 1". I mounted these
to a piece of 8" C channel about 24" long with the
welded frame in the rod ends. What i ended up with is
a square frame that tips forward and backwards very
easily/smoothly. Now on one side of the top part of
the frame, i mounted a dial indicator with the arm
pointing horizontally and opposite that I mounted a
sealed roller bearing. THat is IT!
HOw it works: Tilt the gauge so the dial indicator
and the bearing ride on the aluminum plate on the
wheel (spring out, from on stands and floor jack
holding wheel at ride height) Raise and lower the
jack , one inch at a time, 3" bump then 3" droop and
read the indicator...you will be amazed what you see.

bobaluuu
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 474
posted January 28, 2005 07:28 PM  
http://www.minimania.com/web/DisplayID/1095/SCatagory/SUSPENSION/DisplayType/Calver's%20Corner/CarType/ArticleV.cfm
try this web address also

bbracer17
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 278
posted January 28, 2005 09:01 PM  
I agree with merf, Static toe from o to 1/4 out doesn't really seem to matter much. But be concerned with the bump, 0 bump steer to slightly out is ok but no bump in.

eborcim
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 303
posted January 28, 2005 10:11 PM  
Merf....Did you have to change shims much once you had the bumpsteer set to 0? I've never set the bumpsteer and would like to see it done once.

merf23
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 23
posted January 29, 2005 04:27 AM  
Wr had to bend the pitman arm to about 4 1/2" drop, elongate the idler arm slots to lower tha idler arm as much as possible, shorten the right toe rod and lengthen the left tie rod. Small adjustments make a big difference. We just about sh!t the first time we saw the dial indicator spinning and spinning!
I made up graphs on excel to plot the toe changes. The shape of the curve on the graph, tells what adjustment is needed. Changing castor requires re-bumpsteering because the hright of the out tierod changes.
I did 2 metric cars with all stock parts, plus my legends car (which was AFU too, believe it or not?). NOTE The idler arm/pitman arm will NOT be square when the wheels are striaght ahead. THis is because of the right side having a lot more castor and camber than the left...dont let anyone tell you otherwise, the dial indicator does not lie...

hoosier transplant
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 104
posted January 29, 2005 01:45 PM  
I stated earlier that it was Circle Track, I was trying to say Stock Car web site. Sorry, my tongue covered up my eye tooth and I couldn't see what I was saying.

Steve Dupree
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 316
posted January 30, 2005 07:12 AM  
Ok donavan you have really confused me now. We have done front end work for a long time. When you set toe especially with are cars the only thing you are changing by setting either side is where the sterring wheel will be. If you put the right front sraight and toe out the left and then drive the car out of the shop and then come back and check it you will have the same. Ok lets say i look at it and put the left front straight the right front will be toed out the only thing that moved is the sterring wheel so it makes no difference. One thing that does make a difference is that if you turn the wheel 15 degrees both ways and you have different readings or you go negative toe you have to much caster or not enough on one side or the other. We have played with are car this year and what we are after is when i turn the wheel either way i want it to accually gain toe and then at straihgt i want it straight up maybe a 1/8 out Please tell me iam wrong because i am willing to learn anything on this subject

bobaluuu
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 474
posted January 30, 2005 08:59 AM  
Steve I have long ago verified just what you see on your measurements. When you move that car and roll it back on the toe centers just like it will when you are driving down that straightaway. But when moving with the rf straight ahead the lf will toe out, so in the turns there might be more lf toe and some help on getting that lf to steer when its contact patch is smallest. Course this brings up the whole issue of where are the tires pointed the most % of the time during the race. My car is nevr neutral steer because of torque and banking. So come on all you great thinkers on this forum, Weigh in on this subject.

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Light it up, Baby!

hoosier transplant
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 104
posted January 30, 2005 11:04 AM  
Steve, please refer to what Merf23 is saying about bump steer. I'm not an expert on this subject, know just enough to probably be dangerous, but I beleive the reasoning behind setting LF straight and puting all the toe on the RF is because you lose toe out when you are in a turn. What Merf23 is saying is absolutely true about the bump steer. If you go through your front suspension and adjust for no bump steer, when you set your toe, it will stay the same throughout a bump + or - a very minute change. With a zero bump steer you should be able to have steering wheel straight and add toe out equally to LF and RF.

Steve Dupree
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 316
posted January 30, 2005 03:33 PM  
Ok i went and checke dcar today and reset what you and i changed at the track that practice day. I set toe at 1/8 out with wheels straight, then turned them 15 degrees to the right and we had a 1 inch toe out. and when we went 15 degrees left we had a 1/2 inch toe out. I am really confused but what you i a set at the track that day when i checked this morning we actually was toe in like a 1/4 and nothing is loose i played with this all day.I think i have to much toe out through the turns please somebody tell me what to do. Thanks steve dupree PS i know by changing the caster i can change this but just want to know hot much out do i want it at 15 degrees either way.

Steve Dupree
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 316
posted January 30, 2005 03:47 PM  
I am going to take tomorrow and move both tie rods pretty equal and then turn the right wheel to straight and toe out left a 1/8 or a 1/4 and then do measurements again with wheels turned. I dont see how a steering wheel that turns as many times as it wants cares about what wheel i move but i need to know this. I will report back tomorrow and if this changes things,I have some real ?. I want to know what i want for a 3400 lb car when in the straights and what i want it too be when in the corners. I know if i change caster i will change these measurements but i am arguing toe nothing else but i want to know what to try to achieve as a goal.Thanks

bbracer17
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 278
posted January 30, 2005 04:01 PM  
Steve, what you are experiencing is called Ackerman. That is completely different than bump steer.

hoosier transplant
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 104
posted January 30, 2005 06:48 PM  
Steve, what you have is dynamic toe out when turned. This isn't a bad thing. You actually want that, maybe not that much, because that will pin the frontend of the car down while cornering. Then, since it is dynamic toe out, when you straighten up the wheel for the straight away, your toe is back to 1/8 inch. Like the last post said, that is due to your ackerman. I don't think you can measure bump steer changing your toe unless you actually jackup the RF and then measure. But, you will diffently know when your bump steer is set right when you are actually on the track. When it is right the car will drive like a dream. All of these settings, bump, ackerman, caster, camber, and toe must be correct to have an awesome handling car. I'm still working on mine. lol

Steve Dupree
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 316
posted January 31, 2005 04:14 AM  
Ok thanks i guess you can change Ackerman steering bye changing the caster what should i try to achieve on ackerman.Should i set my toe straight up since i have so much ackerman or should i work on less acherman by moving settings and still leave a little toe out when straight and remember guys i have rear steer this is a 73 torino. thanks Steve PS i guess i understand this bunp steer, its when you get bumped you can,t steer lol

hoosier transplant
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 104
posted January 31, 2005 05:38 AM  
Steve, go to Dirt Forum Tool Box. Scroll down and it explains ackerman, bump, caster, and a lot of other areas. I had to go to my internet home page and search the site. It doesn't come up with Dirt Forum site. Hope this helps explain some things. I'm not the best person to try and explain things. lol

bobaluuu
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 474
posted February 02, 2005 07:35 PM  
fellas we did the set up tonite and tried some of the suggestions (using stock susp parts. at 2.0lf caster/4.25rf caster---
1.5+ lf camber/3.0-rf camber and toe at 1/4-
with the rf straight ahead. When the wheel was turned 15deg right, toe went to 3/8-, ackerman stayed positive2 deg, bump moved from1/64th out on2.3 inches extension to 1/8th in on 2.3 inches of compression . these were live readings with the chassis being moved as in race conditions. Im gonna leave it alone till practice next wkend and see how it works out. Camber goes to 2.0 degree neg on rf and will probably go in a little more on banking.

[This message has been edited by bobaluuu (edited February 03, 2005).]

    

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