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Author Topic:   a thought to ponder
iowa_dirt_track_girl
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 461
posted January 09, 2005 12:05 PM  
With this new car that i have it is really tight on entry but is great through the middle and excellent off the corners. Never had one that good come off the corner that hard. We cant run two inch offsets on the car no more,and with 1000lbs spring in the right front i dont want to go any softer. But would changing shocks help like lets say going from a bilstein to a softer stock shock would that make up the difference? It would be a monroe or something of that nature.
Any suggestions

Xtreme12x
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 874
posted January 09, 2005 12:28 PM  
your probably going to have to give a little to get a little in this situation. The reason it is so good coming off is that it has so much bite to it. I dont think a shock change is what you'd want to do. The only thing I can suggest is a stiffer RR spring. you might go up 100 pounds on the rf spring too and try that.

iowa_dirt_track_girl
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 461
posted January 09, 2005 01:48 PM  
ok but stiffer rr would give it more drive off the rr wich would make it a little better going in and through but would really afect it comming off the corner

Wouldnt a stiffer rf tighten it up going it thus not letting the race roll over before entry?

Xtreme12x
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 874
posted January 09, 2005 01:50 PM  
It will not hurt you a lot coming off... if any

you are soft enough that a stiffer right front will actually help the car to plant the right front and turn into the corner sooner

iowa_dirt_track_girl
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 461
posted January 09, 2005 01:51 PM  
O one more thing i slid the fuel cell over to the right wich would be the same as putting a heavier spring in the rr but that made it lose its stuff comming off the corner

iowa_dirt_track_girl
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 461
posted January 09, 2005 01:53 PM  
This car is way different then most hobby stocks it is almost 600lbs lighter then most out there

Xtreme12x
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 874
posted January 09, 2005 02:22 PM  
Sliding it over to the right adds more right rear, which isn't what I am trying to achieve. You want your percents to stay the same with the heavier spring in there. It doesn't matter how light the car is it all applies. What track are you running on here in Iowa?

Istock66
unregistered Total posts: 874
posted January 09, 2005 03:50 PM           send a private message to Xtreme12x   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/QuoteBBBBBB
600 lighter??

If your 600 lighter than my stock car which is a nova and supposed to be heavy your 2159??

AWESOME!!!

rico 08
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1139
posted January 09, 2005 03:59 PM  
look really hard at the right front,does it have enuf camber?Also don't run much of an offset wheel or spacers there or it will push going in.

iowa_dirt_track_girl
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 461
posted January 09, 2005 05:48 PM  
The camber should be close it was check two to three times and check again we have a three inch offset on the rf and a three on the lf and also 3r,s on both backs used to be twos on the front and a 3 1/2 on the rr and a 4 on the lr darn rule change

And yes I stock it is light although not that light cause its a Hobby stock its still very very light

Xtreme12x
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 874
posted January 09, 2005 05:58 PM  
put a 3 on the rr and a 4 on the rf

Eljojo
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 968
posted January 09, 2005 07:13 PM  
Stiffen RF spring. On the way in you are rolling way too much weight on ithat corner. Stiffen it up and put a heavy shock on the rr.

cornerstone33
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 9
posted January 09, 2005 07:47 PM  
If you ask me, the only real way to analyze or rule out the right front spring is to go off the shock travel indicator. If you're not getting enough travel, you're not planting the tire, if you're bottoming the frame out on the lower control arm, it will cause a terrible push. If bottoming is remotely possible, I would check the travel indicator, pull the spring and manually move the suspension through its travel to check for bottoming or binds. I've seen bent/junk shocks create massive handling problems that are undetectable until you take the time to pull it apart find it. Oh yeah, pay close attention to the metal tab that sticks up on the outer part of the lower control arm, if not removed, that's where it will bottom on the frame. That tab is a sore spot, it got me last year!! God Bless

o5racer
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 402
posted January 09, 2005 08:00 PM  
Just a thought, are the rear brakes working enough? If the rear brakes arent doing enough then it wont get the rearend around on entry. another option is to take the right front pads and grind them down so there is a smaller surface area. this will help the car turn on entry but wont be as erratic as 3 brakes.
Nick

iowa_dirt_track_girl
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 461
posted January 09, 2005 09:44 PM  
From what iam seeing from the majority of post is that adding a heavier rr spring should do the trick

So adding a heavier rr spring will put more rr to lf cross? in the car? boy i still cant figure out how that will work LOL

Iam having a hard time picturing this in my head if someone could help me understand this a little better it would be greatly apperciated

------------------
you never know how fast you are going when your in the lead, until you blow the announcers hat off!!!

[This message has been edited by iowa_dirt_track_girl (edited January 09, 2005).]

Eljojo
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 968
posted January 10, 2005 04:43 AM  
A stiffer RR spring will help to take cross out of the chassis. Cross is ALWAYS measured LR/RF. Trust me, the reason you launch so well coming off is because you have planted both rear tires. As the chassis rolls back onto the rear tires upon acceleration the front tires unload and you are outta here! Scale it out with the set up you have now. Measure your ride heights. Install a 1200-1500 RF spring and go racing. If you still push on the way in, take out a little cross. I'd think I'd make that particular change by increasing air pressure in the RR or dropping in the LR.

iowa_dirt_track_girl
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 461
posted January 10, 2005 06:38 PM  
what is that they call rr to lf then?

I run 35 lbs in both right side tires and 23 lr and 21 rf

cd2
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 161
posted January 10, 2005 08:41 PM  
iowa-dirt-track-girl
Check your PM. cd2

kevinwardracing
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 35
posted January 11, 2005 07:33 AM  
The Bilstein question is where I'd fine tune with. One thing you can do with Factory Stock Bilsteins is run a racing version or the street version or a combination of both in order to gain some fine tuning adjustment. The rebound is higher on the racing Bilsteins but it's still stiff as heck on the street version, too. We've never had a problem running the street version...and I've got them on three of the four corners of the car 100% of the time.

Which are you running?

Reduce bump on RF or Add LR rebound.

If youíre running racing Bilsteinís then put a street Bilstein on the RF.

If youíre running street Bilsteinís then put a racing one on the LR.

You did not say if moving the tank to the right actually helped the tight in situation, but the above adjustment will fix a loose off situation in running the tank to the right, as I do. In fact, one of the very few changes I make for changing track condition is the LR shock. I never got around to doing the RF and seeing if it would be a more consistent fix for what the car needed as the track dried out. But it is top on my list for testing this season.

[This message has been edited by kevinwardracing (edited January 11, 2005).]

iowa_dirt_track_girl
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 461
posted January 11, 2005 05:01 PM  
yes moving the tank over to the right helped a little but messed it up comming off

Xtreme12x
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 874
posted January 11, 2005 07:41 PM  
Changing shocks isn't going to help the situation, your just getting too technical at this point in time to say its a shock problem..
and going that far up in spring from 1000 to 1200 or even 1500 is too much... there is a sweet spot in there somehwere, i'd start with 1100, and increase the rr spring as well if you don't want to try the offsets like i suggested


kevinwardracing
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 35
posted January 11, 2005 10:40 PM  
OK...but it's not hard and she stated that the car was great everywhere else...if it's an entry problem you don't mess with the springs! Most would say going in is a front shock problem...I agree. But she also had stated that in moving the fuel cell to the right the initial problem was corrected, but messed up off the corner. Now that's a better situation to have. It's better to be bad out then bad in. Now you make a rear shock adjustment.

In fact I make one shock change ever week and the only reason I have to do it is because is get's loose off as the track drys out. On the LR I go from a 4 compression, 5 rebound to a 5 compression, 5 rebound.

Of course...there's other things to look at...

Is it worse with a heavy fuel load? Maybe too much front brake bias.

Driving in too deep?
Stagger?

But I'd fine tune with a shock myself. I switched to QA1's because of the low cost in rebuilding them and they sell them in the split valve form at, again, a great price.

Kevin


rico 08
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1139
posted January 12, 2005 06:56 AM  
35 lbs on the right side?...theres your problem,on street tires i'd run about 19lbs on the right side and 15lbs left rear and 12 left front...you can go less on racing tires.i'm amazed you could drive it at all at highway pressures.

speedyd1
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 170
posted January 12, 2005 09:33 AM  
one thing i havent seen is what stagger are you using. a slight increase will get you in a little better. keep in mind that if you do in fact increase the stagger you may very well also decrease the cross weight. i have found it is always best to fix the first problem you incur in the corner and then adjust out. i would suggest you work on corner entry and then see where it leaves you and adjust from there.

iowa_dirt_track_girl
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 461
posted January 12, 2005 02:16 PM  
Yes are right I could give a little on the air pressures on the right side but finishing the race is the most emportant thing plus with 20 or less of air on the right side with dot tires you are actually running on the sidewall if you look at the dirt mark on the sid eof the tires so it doesnt do you any good to run that low of air pressures anyways

As far as stagger with this new car it likes to ahve about 3/4 inch anymore then that and it tends to get loose in the center

iowa_dirt_track_girl
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 461
posted January 12, 2005 02:21 PM  
Ok kevin but what if all we can run is stock type shocks other then sending in the shock to get revlaved what other options do you have (keeping in mind that we have a30$ claim on all of the shocks

Xtreme12x
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 874
posted January 12, 2005 02:47 PM  
Like I said this is a hobby stock you do not need to change shocks... I'd rather be bad in and good off then good in and bad off... you don't pass cars goin into the corner, you get them coming off. Just try my suggestions.... it'll help the car I promise. A shock is a tuning tool it will not make a tight car a better car, it will not make a loose car tight, it will make a good handling car better. Thats one mistake a lot of guys make is they think they need a trailer full of shocks, when in fact you should have a set on the car and a spare for the front and spare for the rear

Eljojo
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 968
posted January 12, 2005 03:32 PM  
Well I m lost now....I run a (LR) 40/40 billstien on a tacky track and a 30/30 on a slick track. This is the first I have ever heard of stiffening the LR shock on a slick track...maybe I'll try it some time--I am open to try anything (almost) I like a 50/50 on the rr at all times that way I don't have to wait for the car to "settle down" before I can get back onto the trottle.

kevinwardracing
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 35
posted January 12, 2005 04:32 PM  
Eljojo,

You see a lot of people running a 77 on the left and 76 on the right...talking fronts.

So on the back, it's a natural balancing thing to run a 44 on the LR and 44 on the RR, but when it gets slick...I run the 55 on the LR. Acutally, I run 4 compression and 5 rebound(s) and change to a 5 compressionand 5 rebound on the LR in the feature. It's a simple adjustment for those times when you're dialed everywhere but off the corner late in the night.

And as for saying it's better to be good in and bad off...for me, it's because of the way you're supposed to work a chassis -- fix in, then middle, then off.

Also, going from a 1000 lb. RF spring to a 1100 #'er tells me the front will roll about 8% less. And that's all good, but I think of that as fix for the middle of the turn loose situation in conjunction with a loose going in situation. Not a push going in situation.

TO ME a push going in calls for a shock adjustment - first, but always check to see if you might be running too much toe meaning, anything more than a 1/4" toe out is too much and can cause a push going in. I heard guys telling other 'new' drivers to run an 1 1/2" of toe out. I don't know if they ment it, but it was bad advice.

There's other things...but I'm just saying where I'd start first. Plus, I've run street bilsteins & racing bilsteins on the rear with great effect. You can get 'em on-line $50 a pop, too. But I like my QA1's the best for a low budget race team that likes to be fast.

Kevin

iowa_dirt_track_girl
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 461
posted January 12, 2005 06:05 PM  
man this is really getting confusing x is saying one thing which I value his opion and all others, but fellas iam a blond here and my head is starting to bounce off my shoulders and giving me a head ache LOL

This really cant be that hard can it?

[This message has been edited by iowa_dirt_track_girl (edited January 12, 2005).]

Xtreme12x
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 874
posted January 12, 2005 06:27 PM  
No, its not hard... just change your wheel offsets like i had said and try that...

LAY74
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 74
posted January 13, 2005 07:44 AM  
I was fighting the same thing last season. The only thing to help me was something I was afraid to try but tried anyway.
Tire pressure drop.
I went to LF 13 RF 17 LR 16 RR 18
BEFORE RUNNING UP TO 30 IN RIGHT REAR..
SOFTER PRESSURE GAVE MORE TRACTION TO TURN AND TO GO THROUGH MIDDLE AND COME OFF STRONG.

Eljojo
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 968
posted January 13, 2005 01:51 PM  
Thanks Kevin, We'll have to agree to disagree on the shock causing the push-in, because I feel like the IDTG is running way too soft of spring and just rolling over too far, overloading the RF on entry. You would not believe what I run for front spring rates and am VERY competitive! A shock travel indicator will tell the tale if I am right. The toe idea is a good one too. Where do you get the QA-1's? PM me with that info if the supplier isn't a Dirtforum sponsor, if you don't mind.

iowa_dirt_track_girl
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 461
posted January 13, 2005 09:03 PM  
As far as toe goes i always run 1/8 to 1/4 out

Our shocks are in the stock location so running travel indicators would be a problem the car dont feel as if its rolling over to hard it just feels as if it wont turn going in I cant even go in harder to try to stop it as a matter of fact the harder i go in the more it dont wanna turn
If i run it in and turn the wheel and burb the gas it will catch then turn and be gone
I know that passing the cars off the corner is the way you wanna be but getting into the corner to pass would be nice LOL

[This message has been edited by iowa_dirt_track_girl (edited January 13, 2005).]

racer17j
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 5390
posted January 13, 2005 09:24 PM  
It may not be legal but one way to get around is to put a beebee in the right front brake line at the caliper... that will block it off and let u use the other brakes...

o5racer
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 402
posted January 14, 2005 06:27 PM  
grinding the pads so they are narrower works well too.

kevinwardracing
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 35
posted January 15, 2005 05:06 AM  
You could be bottoming out the RF as suggested. You just have to pull the RF shock off and see if the indicator (make one out of a wire tie, if you have to) is all the way against the shock. I know it's a pain with the Bilsteins because the gas shock has such a high rebound but the knowledge is worth its weight and could indicate your actual problem.

I noticed it last year on our car and we run more spring than you do but it's a lower profile spring (8 1/2") so without a little more info I wouldn't want to say your (guessing 9 1/2") 1000 # isn't holding up there. What we did was add a shim to both pockets until we started showing a 1/2"+ safety of margin on our shock indicators. The reason we shimmed both sides was to keep our moment (roll) center the same right to left -- it will lower somewhat with this change -- and to help keep our cross weight the same...we still had to adjust the rear a bit to finally get our cross where we wanted but that was more of a middle push that effected that situation especially as we gained more confidence going into the turn.

Good luck,

K

[This message has been edited by kevinwardracing (edited January 15, 2005).]

Steve Dupree
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 316
posted January 15, 2005 06:04 AM  
Well air pressure is the problem i promise you. We run a 3400 lbs car and we run 21rf 19 rr 14lf 16lr If you run on the side wall a little to much go up a lb at a time you are running way to much air pressure. Steve Dupree

kevinwardracing
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 35
posted January 15, 2005 07:03 AM  
I never said anything about air pressure, but I agree that her's is high. LR being the biggest concern I see. However, she's stated she's using DOT tires...

...My question to that is: are they actual street tires or something like the American Racers G-60 we use, which has a DOT version? We are now required to use the American Racer IMCA G-60 which is not DOT. In the past we used either. The only difference I saw was side wall strength and an extra layer of rubber along the outer edge.

kevinwardracing
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 35
posted January 15, 2005 07:09 AM  
Also, we run 16 RF, 15 RR, 10 LR, 11 LF with no bead-lock or loss of tire all season. If it's going to be rough, I'd go up a pound across the board to be safe. Rarely two. However, the biggest trick to that might be in the fact that we refused to run a bent wheel. Actually I got away with it on the LF and the one time I did lose a tire in two seasons, was a rubbed RR duing a heat race that looked a lot better the the LF we'd be using so I left it alone. It took all of turn one to let me know that was a mistake I need not ever forget.

racer17j
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 5390
posted January 15, 2005 06:35 PM  
We also have to run a street tire we run Daytona sr and we must run a 7 inch rim

iowa_dirt_track_girl
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 461
posted January 18, 2005 04:45 PM  
yes i run on dot tires they are douglas xtra trac on one side and firestone fr380 on the other to get the stagger i want NO bead lock either thats why i run 35lbs on both right sides is to keep from rolling a tire plus sometimes you have to run in the sh*t to get around somebody I relize iam giving up some bite but it keeps from rolling tires

------------------
you never know how fast you are going when your in the lead, until you blow the announcers hat off!!!

iowa_dirt_track_girl
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 461
posted January 31, 2005 07:23 PM  
Ok guys getting it ready to go Think that i should Up the Rf spring to 1100 and take a 200lbs spring for the rr instead of the 175

    

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