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Author Topic:   .095 vs scheduel 40.
stevenmw
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 23
posted April 28, 2004 12:19 PM  
I have built all my cars with the scheduel 40 1 1/4" black pipe and it is not but 170 pounds heavier than the .095 tubing.I have seen both cages in crashes and the scheduel 40 1 1/4" comes out on top every time when the .095 tubing crushes.

I know people use the .095 because it is lighter but you end up adding the weight and coming out close as if you had the 1 1/4" scheduel 40 pipe.

Also try bending the .095 in a manual pipe bender and see what happens it crushes when the 1 1/4" scheduel 40 bends beautifully.

Just my opinion along with many wins over the last 11 years.
Steve.

dirtbuster
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 2007
posted April 28, 2004 12:44 PM  
but when you add weight you can put it where you need it, left, right, rear etc. and not have to live with it because of the way the car is built.

Flatlander
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 355
posted April 28, 2004 01:24 PM  
I personnally build the main cage and left side with .125 and use lighter mat. on the right and outside loops if I use .o90 on the left I plate the door bars so you have to decide whats safe for you I'll carry another 100 lbs for safety tho I will say if built correctly with braces and gussets the .090 is good to go

zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1875
posted April 28, 2004 01:45 PM  
first off i dont mean to make you mad, and this is my opinion.
PIPE is not for racing. its too brittle.
and your not suposed to use a pipe bender, you need to use a tubing bender they have different mandrels.
if i was building a street stock, i would use 1 3/4 for the main hoop, and the roof supports, then use 1.5 inch abour .120 thickness for the left side door bars. then use .095 1.5 on the rear supports, and 1.25 .90 on the front clip and the right side of the door bars.

this is just my opinion threw a few years of mod rebuilding and grand national building.

[This message has been edited by zeroracing (edited April 28, 2004).]

zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1875
posted April 28, 2004 01:56 PM  
also there is a good amount of difference from schedule 40 pipe, to regular tubing, to dom tubing.
if you can afford it get the dom tubing and put it in a tubing bender.
have done some with chromoly, fixed alot of broken tubes on those cars mainly.
dont get any of it, watse of money, also unless you really know what your doing its super unsafe. my uncle built prostock drag bikes back in the day and the brazed the chromoly, or you can cook it.
but go with the dom if you can. you may have to call around to get some.

WesternAuto17
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 569
posted April 28, 2004 02:06 PM  
NASCAR stock cars (which I think are a little faster and safer than ours), use .095 tubing, not schedule 40 pipe. Just my 2 cents.

Do you consider 170 pounds a small difference? We're building race cars, not tanks. Use pipe to plumb your toilet, tubing to build race cars.

stevenmw
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 23
posted April 28, 2004 03:59 PM  
Well friends carry on with your store bought roll cages I will carry on with my roll cages and ifn you ever want to run against my heavy car come on to champion park speedway in webster parish louisiana off goodwill road off I-20 Interstate.

Honestly you cant tell my cage from the store bought cage that does not fit to begin with from the race magazines and the pipe cage is stronger than the tubing cage I have witnessed how much both can take and the .095 is no good after one good crash.

Scheduel 40 takes a licking and keeps on ticking like a timex watch.

Good luck your next race.
Steve.

zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1875
posted April 28, 2004 04:06 PM  
i would but dont have a streeter anymore. drive mods and grand nationals now.
a friend built my street stock(before i knew what i was doing) out of 1.5 inch .120 mainly and some .095. it took a heck of a licking and never stoped. if you use dom tubing and dont use 1.25 inch tubing on the whole thing it will last long.
170 pounds is a pretty big wieght difference.

good luck to you on your next race.
and look into well built dom.
i see alot of street stocks that crush, they are usually built by people that have no clue what they are doing.

hey, what are late models made out of? they sure take a hard hit. same with mods?
tubing not pipe.

[This message has been edited by zeroracing (edited April 28, 2004).]

hsracer158
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 33
posted April 28, 2004 04:20 PM  
How about saving all aggrivation, and send the car to a reputable cage builder. Let him do all the dirty work. You'll be happier with the results, and probably safer.

Good luck,
Rick

dirtbuster
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 2007
posted April 28, 2004 04:21 PM  
Keep in mind the cage should give some. it should not break apart but in a hard wreck, rollover etc you want the cage to give and absorb and dissipate some of the impact energy.

gould
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 730
posted April 28, 2004 04:31 PM  
another thing to keep in mind is that schedule 40 pipe is mostly made from recycled s**** iron. we had a topic on here awhile back about this. if you get some weak pipe it can break apart. i work with the stuff everyday. you can tell by the way it welds its weaker. use dom tubing, its worth it.

------------------
www.geocities.com/gouldracing11

gould
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 730
posted April 28, 2004 04:33 PM  
i found the other post. search for black pipe vs tubing.

------------------
www.geocities.com/gouldracing11

racer17j
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 5390
posted April 28, 2004 04:53 PM  
Just a couple notes from someone who had been around a fab shop quite a bit and has been racing for 24 years, and also works for a wholesale plumbing supply company...

Fact... Schedule 40 rusts from the inside out, so while 3 4 years down the road your car still looks nice and safe, its a deathtrap.

Fact... Schedule 40 is very brittle, much more so than .095. In a crash, the car may hold together, but thats not a good thing. Remember Earnhardt? You want the chassis to absorb the energy from a hard crash, not the driver.

Fact... tubing benders and pipe benders are 2 different animals, built for 2 different purposes. While the result is similar in both, you cannot bend pipe in a tubing bender or vice versa.

Last season I nailed the wall at a very sharp angle coming out of 4 at my local track. A rear trailing arm had broken and the tire locked up the rear end when it rolled back to the frame. I came off the low side of the corner straight up the track. Happened so fast I didn't even really have time to mash the brakes. Now, in a cage built out of schedule 40, the driver would have taken the brunt of the energy from that sudden stop. My .095 tubing did its job, I got out of the car and did a little dance on the roof for the people in the stands (once the fire was out). Schedule 40 tubing would have most likely had the safety crew doing a little dance to get you into the ambulance.
the car? Well its still here today getting ready for season #5.

Its cheaper and more cost effective to replace some bars than it is to shop for a casket and a burial plot. Tubing is for race cars, Black water pipe is for water.

racerguy500
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 168
posted April 28, 2004 06:33 PM  
So you are saying that "every" cage manufacturer in the US and Canada (including myself) missed the boat and you figured it out all by yourself? Regardless of opinions, FACTS is what stock car cages are built on. Triangulation by design, lightweight, with driver safety the number one priority. I would say that just because you did it doesn't make it right or safe. Just means you did it, nothing more. Do some research on cage construction and design followed by drivers safety and post crash analysis then you will see and understand the materials required and the demand put on them.


stevenmw
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 23
posted April 28, 2004 09:28 PM  
Let me tell you folks that believe in race tubing and a certified welder.I am convinced that pipe is better than tubing its been proved where i race they say steve you have a **** of a cage cause your car is not hurt and mine is f#^K^d whats your secret?

I say its in pipe not tubing,
Steve.

Darkside1
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 36
posted April 28, 2004 09:45 PM  
I'm going to have to send an email down to my buddy at Laughlin and tell him to start building all the cup, busch and truck chassis they build out of Schedule 40. I guess they missed something when they went to tubing. Then talk to Shawn Parker over at Musgrave's team and tell him every principal of chassis design and materials were just blown out of the water by a street stock guy smarter than everyone else in the racing world!

way2fast72
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 303
posted April 28, 2004 10:18 PM  
I second that Darkside,everyone has their own opinion about things and he seems pretty convinced pipe is the way to go,all I can say is I hope he never has to really test it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Whitelightning
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 429
posted April 28, 2004 10:36 PM  
STEVENMW you are refering to crashes that you experinced and your car seemed to be stronger or tougher but Not that I am proud of it, I have been in a few wrecks on the track and every one has been different types of wrecks with differnt type outcomes. You may have got lucky. I will continue to use what the profesionals use. I have totaled two cars in my racing career but have never been injured, thank the lord. Never heard of many injuries around here in dirt racing but the few I have heard of were from cars with out proper tubing or seats not mounted worth a darn so I will take my chances with the lighter proven tubing and then add weight were its needed for a safer better handling car. One thing that aggravates me is if people would run what is required and not use stuff that is not intended for racing. Example = Big old heavy car with a bunch of heavy metal every where spins out and a profesionaly built lighter car hits it. Well the the lighter car may recieve more damage but driver will be safer in my opinion but if you had the same type cars with required tubing then the impact would be distributed more equal and asorbed more equal and both cars may continue on. This my freind is why you should follow rules and why they are made. We had a few cars that came from another track and wanted to run in our pure stock they wer the 100 ft caddys why half a million tons. Now my car is safe but If I spin out and get hit in the door by one it would be bad there for they were not aloud to race due to being to heavy.

zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1875
posted April 29, 2004 08:24 AM  
stevenmw....believe what you want. but you should have a good quality tubing cage. and you dont have to be a certified welder, but you better be a heck of a good one. its your life your talking about.
if you dont value your own life thats your own deal. i just hope you never get in a really hard crash, like hit a gaurdrail at 100.

racer17j
big fish in the small pond still gets eaten when he gets to the ocean
good point

dirtbuster
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 2007
posted April 29, 2004 09:00 AM  
With enough bracing, gusseting etc a thinwall tube frame can withstand quite a bit. You dont have to have heavy tubing to make it stronger. IF you feel you need a heavier cage why not use heavier DOM tubing, why do you feel you need to use black pipe?
I have seen several cars roll or head on a wall and everytime the driver stepped out and walked away and im talking mods and late models running over 100mph not pure stock or factories, sure the car may be damaged but its easy to put another car together than try to bring someone back to life. Beside the frame is the cheap part of puttin a car together its all the stuff you bolt on it that adds up. Only fatality at our local track during its existence was in a cage failure, a cage made of BLACK PIPE.

Remember its not a demo derby your supposed to try and avoid the other cars not build a tank to run over them.

[This message has been edited by dirtbuster (edited April 29, 2004).]

zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1875
posted April 29, 2004 11:32 AM  
your welder coment, why not just thread the pipe and put it togther. heck that would be an easy cage to make. and could take it from car to car.

Ego Racing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 724
posted April 29, 2004 12:51 PM  
I have built to manl cars to count and WAY to many Truck bumpers. When building pipe bumpers for 4X4 trucks I have had several peices of pipe bust when bending them.
Try this........ Cut a peice of pipe and a peice of tube about 1 inch long, Put them in a press and colapse them. Wana bet the pipe cracks or splits?
We have used pipe on our racecars and it makes great spacers and tie in sheere points for the EMT conduit I use for the body mounts.............OOPS! Now conduit is goung to be better than tubing.

Remember --- it's not the first hit that the tubing stops it is the other car that is still comming.................

juliaferrell
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 370
posted April 29, 2004 01:04 PM  
17............I like that pond stream and ocean thing. I picture this guy working for Joe Gibb's fabrication team any day now.

LOL

zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1875
posted April 29, 2004 01:16 PM  
hey ego, are you talking about body mounts on a street stock or mod/latemodel.
use lexan strips, go get some srcap for a few bucks. and then just make the teathers out of them, it will let the car body bounce and absorb more, i barly tear up my body since i have went to it. works great and cheap.

AC156
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 377
posted April 29, 2004 02:24 PM  
this thread has been very entertaining.

stevenmw
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 23
posted April 29, 2004 03:02 PM  
Ha!ha!ha!

I can see you guys dont like pipe to sad I do and it makes safe dependable roll cages no matter what you think.They all will destruct if given the right opportunity.

11 years and no problems with pipe so that has convinced me where the .095 did not.


Ego Racing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 724
posted April 29, 2004 03:28 PM  
ZERO I mounted the whole body with 1/2 conduit on the lower 1/2. the top I used 1/4 square tube. For the rear I use the strap that they use on trusses because it will push the quarter back out if it can.
As for the pipe thing, Most tracks will not let you run it because it is dangerous, Good Luck to you but I love my wife and kids to much to take a chance like that.
I bet he uses a single layer fire suit that is over 5 years old! Anyone up for it?

outlawstock17
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1363
posted April 29, 2004 04:09 PM  
i build my roll cages out of galvanized fence posts. i bend it with a hammer and an anvil........i weld it with a torch and coat hanger! i'm takin' both my teeth with me when i go apply at childress racing!

[This message has been edited by outlawstock17 (edited April 29, 2004).]

dirtbuster
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 2007
posted April 29, 2004 04:27 PM  
steven

Did you have trouble with a .095 tube cage?

[This message has been edited by dirtbuster (edited April 29, 2004).]

Rookieracer76
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 289
posted April 29, 2004 04:41 PM  
Tubing??? who needs tubing?? my PVC rollcage held togethor with silicone works just as good plus it weighs alot less...

Seriously tho.. use the proper tubing to build rollcages...we're talkin about somethin that may save your life one day!!!

bigcityracer
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 431
posted April 29, 2004 05:22 PM  
OK Guys!!
I agree that black pipe is junk. But I never use the thin .095 tubing period. I but directly from a fabrications shop. I use cold rolled steel .140 wall for the complete cage, minus a couple kickers for the fenders and doors. That's in my mini stock and street stock. I've knocked the 30"x30"x72" concrete block clean out of the track wall and moved a second block. Just replaced a tie rodend and tire for the feature, THAT WAS IN A TOYOTA COROLLA. Just replaced the front hoop for the following weekend. I personally will always use this material. But this is not the **** from Home Depot or Lowes

istock59
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 501
posted April 29, 2004 06:52 PM  
Thank God for IMCA rules (never thought I'd say that) that keep people from build cages out of junk pipe. I wouldn't race on a track that allowed cars out of pipe. Can you imagine what their other rules are like? Bungee cords for seat belts?

Safety first, for me AND the other drivers who might get tangled up in your mess. Yeah your car might take the abuse, but what if you KILLED the other driver because your car is built like a battering-ram?

Ego Racing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 724
posted April 29, 2004 07:26 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by istock59:
Thank God for IMCA rules (never thought I'd say that) that keep people from build cages out of junk pipe. I wouldn't race on a track that allowed cars out of pipe. Can you imagine what their other rules are like? Bungee cords for seat belts?

Safety first, for me AND the other drivers who might get tangled up in your mess. Yeah your car might take the abuse, but what if you KILLED the other driver because your car is built like a battering-ram?


In over 17 years of racing I have seen a few things that stick in my mind......
I was at a track to race and saw a guy who had his seatbelts tied around the cross tube (NOTE:TUBE NOT PIPE!!) in the chassis and duct taped in place. Another good one was I saw a guy (Same track) show up with a 2X4 rollcage (2X4 as in bought at home depot in the WOOD section) and he tried to sue the track because they would not let him win.
This post will now be added to those memories!

gould
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 730
posted April 29, 2004 07:29 PM  
stupid people shouldn't breed.

------------------
www.geocities.com/gouldracing11

Ego Racing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 724
posted April 29, 2004 07:34 PM  
stevenmw
Where do you race? I am asking so I can check your rules. That way if I am going to run against you I am going to protest your car as unsafe!!
I have seen some heated discussions on here about air cleaners, oil, and cooling systems and races have been run and won from all the points of view, but to be so ignorant as to think EVERY chassis builder and major racing originaziton in th WORLD is wrong and you are right is just amazing to me!

zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1875
posted April 29, 2004 07:44 PM  
pipe is the way to go, just stop buy the store and get a pipe threader and some bends. then you can just screw the car together. that would be an easy car to make, and take a short time to assemble.

joetaylor
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 640
posted April 29, 2004 08:10 PM  
STEVE I'm notgoingto tell you are stupid or ignorant or any redneck names but.........

I thought I would be smart and build my cage out of PIPE a figure 8 car when I took a shot to the drivers door and the PIPE broke and one end cut me open 8" long that was not the bad part I wastuff and continued I hit from theouther side and the outher end of the PIPE got me in thelung almost died i DON'T WISH THE PAIN OR THE TIME OFF WORK JUST TO SAVE A FEW DOLLARS IF YOU CAN'T AFFORD TUBING FOR YOUR CAGE BEG FOR HELP FROM A SPONCER BUT DON'T MESS ARROUND WITH YOUR LIFE BELIEVE IT OR NOTYOU WOULD BE MISSED THINK ABOUT YOUR WIFE AND YOUR KIDS WITHOUT A HUSBAND OR WITHOUT A DADDY JUST SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT

Flatlander
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 355
posted April 29, 2004 08:24 PM  
Ego I've seen the same things Exhaust pipe cages and a roll cage with the guys head about 3" above the halo andI just had to say something to him of course he got fighting mad but it just scared the **** out of me to see him my stomach would tie in a knot everytime he raced and the list goes on and on Swllm doesn't understand what a weapon he's in and I hope he never has to truly test his engineering skills

[This message has been edited by Flatlander (edited April 29, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Flatlander (edited April 29, 2004).]

stevenmw
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 23
posted April 29, 2004 08:45 PM  
You guys are really hung on yourselves.lol

zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1875
posted April 29, 2004 08:48 PM  
just trying to save you from hurting yourself.

istock59
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 501
posted April 29, 2004 08:55 PM  
Man, I hope Jammin just kills this topic, it's a waste of time. Might as well talk to a brick wall. At least if it's gone, nobody else will get the idea that pipe is okay for a racecar....


racer17j
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 5390
posted April 29, 2004 09:12 PM  
The home depot wooden roll cage is the funniest thing I have heard about a race
car in a long, long time. I once saw a guy
use a two-by-four as a spacer for his seat
which was bolted directly to the stock
sheetmetal floorboard, but a WOODEN ROLL
CAGE---now that is something I won't forget.

WesternAuto17
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 569
posted April 30, 2004 07:19 AM  
I saw a wooden cage in a four cylinder class once, but at least it was made of 4x4's. 2x4's is just maddness, at least the 4x4's are a little meatier.

This is one of the weirdest posts I've seen on this forum.

gahainsey
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 113
posted April 30, 2004 08:56 AM  
OK I think the truth lies somewhere between. API defines 'black pipe' as a non plated laquered steel pipe. Black Iron Pipe is actually made of ductile Iron. Iron would be totally unuseable since cast iron is very poor in tension loading. Perhaps Steve is using a Grade B steel pipe which has to have a minimum tensile strength of 35,000 psi.(per API 5L) If this is what he is using then there could be no technical argument against it-Aside from the cage being too non-energy absorbing. The problem with using 'black pipe' of unknown origin is that it may be a very weak hot formed alloy, or it may be fine. THIS is one of the biggest problems with it. Since most people do not carry around mill spec reports with their cage, it is easier for tracks to outlaw 'pipe' as a material and mandate the 1.75 tubing since tubing is never manufactured from the weakest or brittle alloys. An interesting aside is that 1020 tubing has a 37,000 psi yield in WREW form and 60,000 psi yield in DOM (drawn over mandrel). I was shocked to learn the increase in strength.

racerguy500
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 168
posted April 30, 2004 09:34 AM  
Last reply as this topic is going nowhere with this guy. But a "good" cage protects the driver, NOT the car. Cars can be replaced, people can't. Energy absorbtion is designed into it, just as Detroit builds in crush zones front and rear. I hope you never have a crash that will test the physics and good luck. But after all these people that you crash with are impressed with your cage stiffness, I would have to wonder why you are in so many crashes. Maybe your braking suffers from trying to stop all the additional weight. And when one guy gets over 40 opinions that do not agree with his, and then says we are all stuck on ourselves, that one guy needs to open his mind and learn something. I hope you stay safe for your families sake.

Ego Racing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 724
posted April 30, 2004 12:18 PM  
I liked the wooden cage..... What would a splinter in the A** feel like for 50 laps and G force....HA!
I saw a car pass tech once where the seat was about 20 inches infront of the main hoop cross tube, there was a 1 3/4 inch tube from the cross tube to the back of the seat where the tube was smashed flat and bent up with two 1/4 inch bolts through it into the headrest area. There was nothing else on the seat back and it was bolted to the floor with two 1/4 inch bolts. The tube was right into the guys neck.
After we said something and the tech guy started to argue with us we loaded our car up, got a refund and left.

popwillis
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 30
posted May 01, 2004 07:57 PM  
Sory guys, but I can't figure out how us old timers, who started racing back in the sixty's ever survived as long as we did. A lot of us didn't even have NEW pipe...we built cages out of used well pipes. As far as the post about Earnhardt's crash, he had DOM, nor schedule 40.

WesternAuto17
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 569
posted May 03, 2004 08:08 AM  
In the sixties, they raced in T-shirts and football helmets with 4 point cages. What's your point? We have better equiment and materials now shouldn't we use them?

The point about Earndardt was that he personally took the brunt of the wreck instead of the car absorbing it. A black pipe street stock going from 70 to 0 in 4 feet would force the driver to take the full force of the impact, just like how Earnhardt did at 190.

    

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