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Author Topic:   Moral Dilemma
J3
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 200
posted November 02, 2005 11:00 PM  
Ok, I would like your thoughts on this. The track and class I race in is limited to 362 cubes according to the rule book. However, I know most (not all, but about 85%) are running 383 and 406 strokers. Now to my dilemma, do I build a stroker also even though it is against the rules or do I follow the rules? None of these guys every got DQed because they don't tech it. So, do I stick with the rules or join the crowd?

[This message has been edited by J3 (edited November 02, 2005).]

Eljojo
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 983
posted November 03, 2005 04:17 AM  
Just about every track I have ever been to has either a claim, a protest rule, or both. My advice to you is to either put up or shut up. You may find, much to your surprise, that many of the drivers are running legal motors.
If you want to cheat, go on and cheat. I doubt you will find too many on here that will tell you that it's ok tho.

juni
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 193
posted November 03, 2005 07:01 AM  
If your track won't do anything and you ask them to then cheat or go race some where else . The problem is if you are the one guy that starts the checking and they find out you will be scum of the earth to the rest of the racers so you will be on the short end of the stix either way you go. Good luck.

J3
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 200
posted November 03, 2005 08:20 AM  
quote:
Originally posted by Eljojo:
You may find, much to your surprise, that many of the drivers are running legal motors.

If you reread my post, I didn't say I think they are running illegal, I said I KNOW they are. I know because I am friends with some of them and they have flat out told me they are running 383's and 406's. Said that they had to to keep up with these other 2 guys. So the ones I know for sure are 8 of them, and 2 of those 8 are related to two of the others, and they said they know they are, so that makes 10 of the 15 cars we have racing running strokers. Plus I have seen one of the guys I race with on here asking questions about his 383 he is running.


poorboy racing 53
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 32
posted November 03, 2005 10:08 AM  
Just build a legal car. So if they do ever tech for it you won't have a problem. With your luck the night you win they will tech for it. Not to mention when you finish ahead of all those cars with big motors it will feel that much better.

IowaFuzzy1
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 136
posted November 03, 2005 10:30 AM  
Like Poorboy says:Build it leagel,It's always better to beat the cheaters when you know that you're not.Do your researce,learn about making the car work better,improve your driving skills.Bigger isn't always better.Cheaters can be beaten!

brabbit75
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 50
posted November 03, 2005 11:28 AM  
As many of the above guys are saying, build it legal. I had the same dilemma last year at this time. I decided to make it legal, but I spent time doing every single thing correctly. I was also being accused of cheating, but not one of the claims ever panned out, and they thought I was cheating cause everyone else was. It definitely felt better when I won the legal way. In other words, take your time, make it handle on the track/tracks you are racing, and you'll be fine.

sc1 racing
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 428
posted November 03, 2005 12:10 PM  
its not always the engines. take your time ask questions and do plenty of research. and read your rule book back and forth. i dont cheat but i will push them to the limits on the supension and body rules. every one in some form is tring to out do the other guys some dont call it cheating. then some guys stuff 10 grand in a motor for a stock class. i race on a tight budget, and for the thrill of the competition so ill spend 80% off my time building the cage and cuting the body..as well as tweeking the suspension..

any good running engine in the engines rpm range will hang with those 383/406.. if you need help its all around bud..

beachracing
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 95
posted November 03, 2005 12:52 PM  
We all have had to think about what your thinking about as well. If they don't use a pump & gauge at your track then go for it, if you are certain that they are doing the same. Personally, I've had to listen to people tell me there are rumors of me running this, and running that. I find satisfaction in knowing that my car can be fast legally, and that my abilities as a driver are much more important than how big my motor is. I've been a front runner at my own track and due to our rules we have to run 9.5:1 motors. Our points champion for 2005, and myself recently ran at a different track and their motor rules are same except unlimited cubes, and compression ratio. We were running against 13.1:1, 383, etc, and he finished 3rd, and I finished 5th I beleive. Driving ability, and great handling should always be a drivers biggest concerns. Cheating will eventually come up and bite you when you least expect it. Winning is great, but at what cost?

J3
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 200
posted November 03, 2005 12:52 PM  
Well I don't so much look at it as cheating anymore. I have run completely legal for the past 3 years (since I started). I have been accused of cheating several times because my legal motor either keep up or beat them. They said that I had to be cheating because they were and there was no way for me to keep up unless I was cheating also.

How is it cheating if I am running the same thing they are? So, like I said, I don't really think it is cheating anymore, it is just keeping pace with the others.

James Ott
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 146
posted November 03, 2005 04:39 PM  
You answered your own question man!

I have been accused of cheating several times because my legal motor either keep up or beat them. They said that I had to be cheating because they were and there was no way for me to keep up unless I was cheating also.

DJR22
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 125
posted November 03, 2005 07:22 PM  
Most often, motor rules are in place to keep the cost of entry level classes down and to keep the competition somewhat even. But if 85% of the competitors are willing to spend the money on strokers, the track should consider changing the rules to allow it. Then everyone would be legal.

------------------
-stand on it-

Koolaid
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 93
posted November 03, 2005 07:56 PM  
The difference between a 362 and a 383 isn't that much - seems like you could build a plenty stout motor that is legal and kicks some **** ?

It takes an awful lot of horsepower to walk away from someone in the straightaways - like the other guys are saying on here - if you have your setup nailed you can run darn good with a 362max engine.

mark46ew
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 33
posted November 04, 2005 04:16 AM  
Where i run there is no cube limit for our stock class and i see people with 355 motors run right with the strokers,I would stay within the rules and brag my a$$ off when i beat them.

sideways
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 727
posted November 04, 2005 07:21 AM  
Its still cheating just called defensive cheating.As per Smokey.

bigdozer
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 54
posted November 04, 2005 11:16 PM  
wold have to see your rules on car set up. if you cant stick it to the clay more horse power is wasted money

LMS53
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 22
posted November 05, 2005 06:14 AM  
build a legal motor and kick a$$ I have ran with anything fron 383 to 434s with my 355 and killed them cubic inches is great but set up is better!! most track I been to go dry slick so big hp is voided verses good driving and set up = wins!!

James Ott
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 146
posted November 05, 2005 09:00 AM  
Thanks LMS!!!

J3
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 200
posted November 06, 2005 06:10 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by LMS53:
[cubic inches is great but set up is better!! B]

I agree. I have run with them and beat them also with a legal motor. You say work on setup....well when they have both, big motor and good setup, I need both. Setup pretty good, now working on bigger motor.


LMS53
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 22
posted November 06, 2005 08:18 PM  
IF THE TRACK HAS RULE THEY DON'T ENFORCE WHAT GOOD ARE THE RULES!! SO YOU HAVE TO DO WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO TO WIN. HOW BIG IS YOUR TRACK.

J3
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 200
posted November 07, 2005 08:10 AM  
[QUOTE]Originally posted by LMS53:
IF THE TRACK HAS RULE THEY DON'T ENFORCE WHAT GOOD ARE THE RULES!! SO YOU HAVE TO DO WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO TO WIN. HOW BIG IS YOUR TRACK. [/QUOTE

Well, they say it is a quarter. But it is just a tad bigger than a 1/4 but less than a 3/8.

Shess71
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 15
posted November 07, 2005 04:49 PM  
IF YOU AIN'T CHEATIN YOU AIN'T TRYIN NOW THAT'S PROPER ENGLISH AIN'T IT

J3
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 200
posted November 07, 2005 04:53 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by Shess71:
IF YOU AIN'T CHEATIN YOU AIN'T TRYIN NOW THAT'S PROPER ENGLISH AIN'T IT

That's the proper English I am using next year.

racer19x
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 27
posted November 07, 2005 08:18 PM  
Build it legal, then when you do beat them, you know you did it the right way.

LMS53
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 22
posted November 07, 2005 08:57 PM  
ANOTHER THING TO THINK ABOUT IS THE REBUILD COST ON THEM STROKERS VERSA A 350. STROKERS ARE HARD ON CRANKS SO THEY NEED TO BE CHANGED MORE OFTEN THAN A STRIAGHT UP 350.I'D PUT A GOOD CRANK'RODS AND PISTONS IN A 350 AND TURN THE **** OUT OF IT!!

nyracer77
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 11
posted November 08, 2005 04:36 AM  
we are allowed cubes upto 400 and allowed .30 over. We have always run 358CI and have no problem running up front. I even built a couple smaller engines that managed to run in the top 5 327, 305's. It' all in the handling when ya gain a lot of ground in the corners, it helps a bunch.

[This message has been edited by nyracer77 (edited November 08, 2005).]

nine finger
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 93
posted November 08, 2005 04:50 PM  
would you give your son a bb gun to hunt deer. then why do you want to try and run with big inch motor with a little motor. Everybody wants to apply there morals to you. you go do what you feel is right, winning isnt everything but loosing just cause they are running big motors is another thing.

Normal Sullivan
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 57
posted November 08, 2005 05:16 PM  
Wouldn't give my son a machine-gun to hunt deer either. It's not morality, and it's not a morals issue. It's about following RULES! Not EVERYONE on the track cheats. So you have a few who won't follow the rules, well if you "cheat to keep up" you're still cheating every racer on the track who doesn't. If you HAVE to cheat to be competitive, maybe you should find another hobby, obviously you can't drive.

J3
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 200
posted November 08, 2005 07:01 PM  
quote:
obviously you can't drive. [/B]

I was competetive with a legal motor. I had 6 heat wins, 2 feature wins, and 5 other top 3 finishes. So does that mean I can drive?

Several people think it is all about driving. Unfortunately, they are wrong. Yes, driving is important, and more so than having a great big motor. But, just because you can drive good or even great, doesn't mean that you will win.

Let me put it to you this way. If you put the best driver you know in a mini mod (4 cyl class) against a mediocre driver in a super late model, who is going to win. The great driver of that 4 cylinder or the cubic inches of that super late?? After your great driver loses, are you going to tell him he just needs to outdrive the other guy?

Lets say that you go to war, before the war starts, both sides agree to certain rules that will be followed. (Which is actually done in real war believe it or not) Both sides agree to only use rubber bullets. However, your advisary starts using real bullets. What do you do? Continue with the rubber bullets because it is the rules, or switch to real bullets and show them the same curtosy that they have shown you? You do what helps you sleep at night and I will do the same. As for me, I intend to fight fire with fire so to speak. I am switching to the same size caliber or larger that my opponent uses.

Everyone that says you just need to drive better or outdrive the guys cheating are all assuming the guys cheating can't drive. And we all know what you get when you assume......

[This message has been edited by J3 (edited November 08, 2005).]

LMS53
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 22
posted November 09, 2005 09:00 PM  
WOW!!YOU ASKED A ??? GOT ANSWERS YOU DIDNT WANT TO HERE STILL SAY YOU CAN WIN WITH A 350. WHATS THAT SAYING MOM SAID ABOUT JUMP OFF A CLIFF? I GUESS YOU WOULD. LOL..

Normal Sullivan
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 57
posted November 09, 2005 11:18 PM  
J3- No personal offence intended by my remarks. I think you made two interesting points. We don't, as a rule, run supers against mini-mods, because...(that would be cheating) And this isn't some insignificant war, it's a stock car race. My point is that every guy who finished behind you isn't necessarily a worse driver. If you cheat, they'll never get a chance to compete fairly against you either. Like you said, we all gotta get our own sleep. Anyway, if you'll indulge me I'll tell you an interesting story: At our local track there's a father/son team. Dad runs a pure stock, Son runs an e-mod, both have top-notch equipment. Dad is a consistent winner with mad driving skills, and Son is 15 with talent. This past summer, they set up a grudge race; $1000 cash from dad against a haircut for the kid. Should have been, no, everyone KNEW, that Dad was going to kick juniors **** ...What actually happened: Dad got SCARED of that big motor/faster chassis, and didn't complete more than one lap out of five without loosing it in the corners, spinning out, or wasting time smoking the tires coming out. Drove like a first week rookie and lost himself a pile of pennies. That big motor didn't beat him, the kid sure didn't do it, he beat himself.

James Ott
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 146
posted November 13, 2005 05:20 AM  
I intend to fight fire with fire so to speak. I am switching to the same size caliber or larger that my opponent uses.

If I read this right you have the intention of raising the bar of the level of "cheating" that goes on at your track.
Moral dilemma my **** !
My son drove a minicup and we built top notch motors and had bad setups. Ran good but not great. We fixed the bad setup and the car flew.... now we were cheating. The points leader ran 12th we won in a race. They accused of a letting air out his tire. Ruined a good relationship between the boys.
I always express to my son the importance of playing by the rules. We finished 2nd in points and won alot of races, but a bad luck race or two killed our chances at a Championship. And we never ever cheated.

J3
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 200
posted November 15, 2005 08:50 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by James Ott:
If I read this right you have the intention of raising the bar of the level of "cheating" that goes on at your track.
Moral dilemma my **** !
.[/B]

Well James, when I originally posted this topic on November 2nd, I did have a "moral delima". The post you responed to that I made on November 8th, you are right, I no longer had that "moral delima". There is a very good reason why and how I made up my mind to "fight fire with fire." The other post on here had very little to do with it.

The reason: We had our banquet on November the 5th. At the banquet, this very subject was brought up by another driver. (certain persons or teams running stroker motors) We were told by the track owner, promoter, and tech official that "those people didn't have enough money to build another motor, so they were going to be allowed to run those again next year so they would still be able to race and that it isn't that much differance between a 383 or 406 and 350 anyway, so it shouldn't matter." They also went on to say that "if you don't feel you can compete, then you need to step up your racing program."

That is why I no longer have a moral delima. As far as I am concerned, I was told that it is ok.


DJR22
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 125
posted November 15, 2005 09:19 PM  
Word of mouth is always as good as in writing...right? So, stroker time?

------------------
-stand on it-

CLBaker25
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 206
posted November 23, 2005 06:27 AM  
What is the carb rule in your class? If you are allowed to go with a 4412 or bigger I would say you can keep up with the 350, but if it is smaller then that you are not in a good position. The smaller motors need the bigger carbs to be able to turn more RPM than the bigger motor that pulls harder.

James Ott
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 146
posted November 23, 2005 08:01 PM  
Thanks J3 for the reply....Now build a KICK *SS motor and go KICK a** with it!!!!!

J3
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 200
posted November 24, 2005 06:40 PM  
Have to run a stock, unaltered 2 bbl carb. No holley's at all (even the stock holleys that came on some cars are not allowed) and no 4412's.

James, I am going to try and do just that. I might not KICKA$$, but at least it will be a more level playing field.


tlkdlw
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 46
posted November 29, 2005 07:41 PM  
When you can flat foot it in the corners and cant Win!! then is the time to think about more horse power and Cheating. You are already a good driver in your opinion so set it up to handle and Win Legal

Terry

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