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Author Topic:   Changes
marktires
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 7
posted October 24, 2005 05:35 PM  
What changes do you guys make to your cars between the heat(good tacky track) and the Main (dry slick).

Fastride 38
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 139
posted October 24, 2005 05:50 PM  
Is the car perfect in the heat and loose in the feature? Or is it tight in the heat and good in the feature? I understand your question but it really depends on what my car is doing in the heat.

[This message has been edited by Fastride 38 (edited October 24, 2005).]

marktires
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 7
posted October 24, 2005 08:33 PM  
Car is perfect in heat and very loose in main (dry slick)

zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1932
posted October 24, 2005 08:58 PM  
Loose where? IN/out?
Can you answer 3 questions.
What? Loose/tight
Where? entry exit midcorner
when? on the gas on the brake, or coasting.
There are a few different things that could be happening.
1) Is the car going into the corner and as the driver enters the car becomes loose. When it becomse loose it actually breaks traction with the racing surface. Now you have a car with the tires just skating around(rears), so as the driver no goes onto the pedal he trys to go. But the tires are still broke loose and therefore the car continues to be loose on exit. So it is loose all over but 99% an entry problem.

2) The car is going into the corner its getting loose and the driver is letting it regain control then gassing it with forward bite and driving out good.

3) The car is going in way tight but the driver automatically throws the car loose on entry, thus breaking tires free and causing the traction to be lost for the entrie corner.

4) car is great on entry just when car hits mid corner it roatates too quickly, or when you begin to gas it becomes very loose all of a sudden.

As far as how to fix the car with changes depends on which of the above problems the car is having.
1&2) the car being loose on entry, This needs to be fixed before any exit is thought about. THe first change I would make is too increase the LF spring rate. This will decrease the dynamic wedge on the entry and tighten up the car. Then see how center and exit is with that change.
3) With the car super tight like this you may have to try to free it up. Ways to do this is too lower LF spring rate, Lower RR spring, increae RF spring. Then that will free up the car some on entry and let the car turn without the driver having to "throw it".
4) This means the entry is fixed, so now the center and exit can be worked on.


IF THE ENTRY IS GREAT THEN OTHER CHANGES

Mid corner loose can be helped by lowering the j bar or shorty or whatever panhard bar on the axle side this will change the overall car, but when I only make a small change with it I find it helps the mid corner best. Also leading or trailing a side can be used.

Exit loose
fixes for this is more lr spring/angle in lr bars, less rr bar anlge. etc...

so anser those 3 questions.

also learning to drive slick is important too, i am not perfect, but the basic ideas behind driving on tacky, gas hard and brake while throwing the car around.
slick act like your on ICE, on entry you want to brake, slow slow, then turn smooth, then roll onto gas kreep it up, and rotate out smoothly, also be sure not to throw the car hard in the center. Must keep the traction constant. Watch a veterian driver or touring car driver they drive 2 completly different ways with the 2 types of tracks.
but answer those 3 questions.

marktires
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 7
posted October 25, 2005 05:10 PM  
That's the problem Zero we don't know if it's the set-up or the driver?. the car gets so loose off and half way down the front/back straightaway the car is so sideways you can see the drivers side car number when standing in turn four/two. only on dry slick. The car is great on tacky. So I guess what I'm looking for is what does everybody change between the heat and the main? I feel we change too much to try to tight up the car for dry slick. We move the pull bar over a inch to the left of center go from a 3 off to a 4 off on the right rear put 3% more cross in it, put a easy up shock on the left rear to keep the car up on the bars(it's a four bar car) and go down one hole at the pinion on the short bar.and add fuel for the rear % So the driver says it's my set-up, I say it's his big right foot.

20crew
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 51
posted October 25, 2005 06:18 PM  
could be a combo of the two. try changing as little as possible , one thing at a time to find a solution,if you make alot of changes and it works you don't really know what fixed it. work from the flag stand around the track back to the flag stand.
we make very few changes from heat to feature . I think your easy up shock on the left rear may be some of it ,it's keeping the car over on the right rear to long .it will promote side bite but not forward bite . driving a dry slick track is an art[especially in a mod big motor little tire]. 1; drive the car straight [if the car gets sideways it unloads the chassis and causes wheelspin and loose condition , 2; drive like an egg is under foot ,[be smooth].
The drivers that are real good at dry slick [frye ,moyer,shryock ,etc are very seldom wide open or clear off the gas to keep the chassis loaded].

zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1932
posted October 25, 2005 06:22 PM  
Sounds like a major driver problem. No offense but he needs to not be so out of control, if your not getting bite to start then your not goingto get it by holding the pedal down. As far as changes, I would go up a hole on lr upper bar. less rr spring, see hwo that does. and tell him that all drivers can be wrong. Also to let off the gas

dirtTurd
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 116
posted October 25, 2005 06:41 PM  
get taller gear....it will help had freind go from a 5:83 to 5:14 and help him alot..

marktires
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 7
posted October 25, 2005 07:00 PM  
We thought about the gear change! what minor chnges would you make?
move short bar down at pinnon? more cross ? off set? or just the lr bar change.or pull bar? And **** off driver by telling him how to drive

dirtTurd
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 116
posted October 25, 2005 07:31 PM  
all i change is stagger and puting weight on or off the car tire pressure. i have been told most people dial themseves out more than in so i keep it basic. my car is very sensitive to any adjustment i make. Need to make sure your car is too if not you might get different chassis or get back to basics and basics set up then fine tune from there... also i would get alot smaller engine if he is new..

zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1932
posted October 25, 2005 07:43 PM  
Just say, hey try this, or get him to watch some late model videos of the pros like bloomer, then comment on how smooth. he might pick up some ideas.

44nymod
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 120
posted October 26, 2005 06:03 AM  
Marktires I was the same way 2 yrs back. My old crew chief told me to start talking to myself, it might sound dumb but it seems to keep your mind at ease. Now when I hit a dry slick I'll say, easy on the gas,if the tire is spinning alittle I say not all the way, meaning throttle. Going in is keep it straight don't slide. We used a 2way radio once for practice and the guy's couldn't believe how much I was saying to my self. And according to the video the more I talk tio myself the calmer I am and the better the driving. But the driver has to learn to be open to critism and new ideas but the same goes for the set-up guy. Go back to your basics and each week change 2 thing's see if they work and go from there, but pick the 2 changes together with the driver. This also seems to help to learn communication.

Fastride 38
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 139
posted October 26, 2005 07:01 AM  
My Dad says (to this day) to me before I go out on to a dry slick track...."Roll in, Roll out".

marktires
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 7
posted October 26, 2005 07:18 AM  
I don't think the cars that far off. it's great in the heat,we did always have a slight push in the apex but we fixed that and now the driver gets out of the car after the heat and says the car is perfect. Then after the main the driver gets out of the car and says it's the biggest piece of junk, we have to change something . When I look around the pits I don't see a lot of people changes a lot of things on there cars for the main so when we change 5 things that should tighten up the car and the driver says it so looses it's junk that's when the finger pointing goes on. I told him I want to bolt a 100 lbs to the left rear. I'm know the motor could still pull the car no problem.and maybe look for a throttle linkage with the spring in it.

zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1932
posted October 26, 2005 07:33 AM  
unhook the secondaries on him one night, see if he still is out of control. haha. Heard of people doing it way back in the day.

[This message has been edited by zeroracing (edited October 26, 2005).]

Fastride 38
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 139
posted October 26, 2005 08:21 AM  
LOL...or pull a plug wire.

dogwalker
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 66
posted October 26, 2005 09:28 AM  
Take a look at stagger. If your on imca tires an 1" - 1 1/2" is great on tacky but will make the car wicked loose on dry. If your within 1/2" or less, you should be okay.


marktires
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 7
posted October 26, 2005 04:08 PM  
On the stagger when we change from the 3 off on the right rear to the 4 off we go from 1" of stagger to straight-up to tighten up the car. So what things do a lot of you change between the heat and the main

fastow
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 179
posted October 26, 2005 09:03 PM  
This is a interesting topic changes are necessary to make advancements in any racing program. But tinker ideus can get you in trouble. I believe its very important to have a driver that believes in his car so if the driver is really set on one change or another driver confidence is more important so I really try to let the driver have what he thinks he needs. Another thing is any driver thats going to do good in any level of racing has to have a open mind always looking to make things better. The longer I am around these cars the more I realize If you make a change I don't think your going to get full benefit from it first time out. Just a opinoin

zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1932
posted October 26, 2005 09:14 PM  
Personally if I was helping a team, and the driver drove like that then was calling everythign junk and pointing the finger at me I would tell him to set up his own d... race car and walk away.
It amazes me how terrible some drivers treat thier crew's. One guy never pays pit passes for his guy and couple others, then makes one of them tow the car to the track about half the time and makes him pay for the fuel. Then if something goes wrong or they dont work fast enough he yells and calls them everything you can think off.

Now as far as changes, I agree start with one or 2 and see what that does. Tell the driver to be more open minded, nobody is perfect he has to learn to work with the car not against. Also may tame the motor one night and see if that calms him down(like adjust a carb throttle stop).

TEAMPCR
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 246
posted October 27, 2005 05:08 AM  
I provide and drive the tow vehicle, and more or less furnish the fuel. I store the car in my garage, and pay my own pit pass. I don't mind because my driver never would think of yelling at me. The only thing I do between heat and feature is empty the ashtray and put a fresh pepsi in the cup holder.

zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1932
posted October 27, 2005 07:57 AM  
I would like to yell at my driver some times.... but the people around would think i was odd to yell at myself.

44nymod
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 120
posted October 27, 2005 05:06 PM  
Zero, That's way funny. Def a ggod one I feel the same way.

FlyNLoIMCA17
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 753
posted October 27, 2005 05:28 PM  
zero, I agree LOL!!! I would like to do the same thing at times except I don't like being yelled at so then I'd have to whip my own a.. Boy, people would really begin to wonder then......... LOL!

JUSTBOB
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 5
posted December 20, 2005 11:28 PM  
experiance and maturity will help with dry slick - but some drivers NEVER get it. If he is buzzing the tires then he is either A, not paying attention
B, getting too excited
C, inexsperianced
D, not his equipment and dont care.

Toywagon
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 17
posted December 21, 2005 08:16 AM  
I drive for someone else, so I feel qualified that I can say this.

How come we have a gazillion different setups to possibly try, and want our crews to continually fix handling problems, but only offer them one driving style to choose from?

If you come off the corner with the back end kicked out so far that the crew can read the number all the way down the straightaway, that only takes once for the driver to know that if you throttle it that hard again, its going to do the exact same thing again.

The problem isn't in setting up a race car. Thats the easy part. The challenge of setting up a race car, is setting it up so someone can drive it! LOL.

I read once that the definetion of insanity, is doing something over and over and over the exact same way, but expecting the results to be different. As drivers, we need to adapt to what the car is doing, and make changes to our style to capitalize on the best the setup for that race has to offer.

If we have missed the setup very much, it shows up in my finishing position. You may see me struggle a bit here or there on the track as I try a different line, or approach in or off the corner, but if the speed isnt there, it just isnt there. We bring it back in, in one piece, take good notes, and hopefully come back the next week all for the better. Sometimes learning what not to do is just as important as knowing what worked.

Regardless of how close or how far the setup is, once the car hits the track, it is the drivers job and responsibility, to adjust his driving style, to get the best of all that his car has to offer. If the driver stuffs the car, or takes a shot and gets dumped, everyone is back in the pits fixing crash damage and trying to square the car back up instead of working on handling.

There are so many different approaches to driving that go far beyond mashing the gas and trying to flat foot all the way around the track. If your driver thinks that you are going to hit on a setup that will allow him to drive this way on dry slick, its just not going to happen. If the car is so loose off the corner that he has no foward bite the car should be getting past by faster cars, not having the entire field go by him while hes pointed at the infield down the back stretch.

Jim

diesel rat
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 6
posted December 21, 2005 03:52 PM  
sounds like the car is so tight with your feature setup its actually loose. what i mean is the no stagger situation you have is catching up to itself before mid corner and then the tire with the least weight starts to spin and everything goes downhill from there. you should find the correct stagger for each track and always keep it there and adjust the chassis and the driving style to the track. brake in a straight line when it gets slick, easy on the gas, save the rr tire, if you can get him to not spin the tires for even a few laps then take before and after tire pressures . the tire building the most is being overworked. most likely the rr. take steps to make the lr work more start with lower pressures on the rr, etc get a good quality tire gauge and before you load the car sit down with everyone on the team and go thru what you are trying to acomplish. if you arent having fun why do it? you certainly arent going to make money doing this!!

20crew
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 51
posted December 21, 2005 04:20 PM  
the difference between a good driver and a great driver is the ability to adjust there
driving to the car and the track.

our driver is young (second year in a mod 2 man thunder car before) and willing to learn.
thats the main reason I agreed to help that and good equipment .

I'm not saying the driver is the main prob. but he should be willing to try different things , to help the program.
take him to THE DREAM , THE WORLD 100,
or any long race with top drivers just to watch, LAST RESORT YOU REALLY WANT TO &*^^
him off put some one else in the car for a night. just to see.

gargejj
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 6
posted December 22, 2005 12:39 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by marktires:
We thought about the gear change! what minor chnges would you make?
move short bar down at pinnon? more cross ? off set? or just the lr bar change.or pull bar? And **** off driver by telling him how to drive


you have crossed the happy piont by more bar angle and cross thus you are only appling power to left rear .with the added bar angle the rear is piont at the wall so driver trys to go straight which over loads the the tire and gives up the ghost . less pull bar angle would help the right rear stay loaded longer so it would also drive up under car to keep rear more square

shawboy59
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 11
posted December 22, 2005 02:35 PM  
Another thing you can try,won't be easy though . our car owner used to build motors
for a former mod natl. champ. that wanted big lummpy drag race cams in his motors .
so he could mat the pedal on a slick track and it would hesatate till it got up on the cam and not spin the wheels so bad.

OR if you run an MSD box drop the rev chip alittle under what it normaly turns seen guys do this also.
ALTOUGH IT CAN HURT YOUR MOTOR.

[This message has been edited by 20crew (edited December 22, 2005).]

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