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Author Topic:   dw8 dry slick setup
rpm20
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 338
posted May 04, 2005 05:54 AM  
last night we tested again, with the dw8 4-z.
we had a very dry slick track and it only got worse.
we were able to tune from loose to monster push tight and back so it was good.
my question is.....does anyone have a good dryslick setup that they will share with me to use on my abused dw8 chassis
i had 650lf 3030 680rf 3050
lr 4 bar 225 on slider behind the bc 5030
rr z link 170 on top with 3030 on ft of bc
lr lower 2nd hole up lr upper center hole
rr lower (long)2nd hole rr upper 1" lower in rear
leading lr 1/4" trailing rr 1/4"
110" wheel base 48 cross, no bite 58 rear 20 gal. fuel 54.5 left all with driver 2550 total w/ driver
when we tighten it , then we get monster push in, middle and out


Kromulous
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 796
posted May 04, 2005 06:17 AM  
Was the 4-link LR behind any better?

Still got the bad push?

CovertRacing
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 16
posted May 04, 2005 06:54 AM  
I am just wondering where do you get a 680 right front spring? I have never heard of a 680 before. If your spring rates 680 there could be the start of your problem, your spring is bad and collapsing on you and making the car very inconsistent.

rpm20
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 338
posted May 04, 2005 06:56 AM  
yes, 4 link lr behind was better but i only get 1" rf shock travel....my thought is to soften both fron t springs. the other puzzling thing is that my scale corner weights seem a bit low on the rf here they are
653 lf 429 rf
738 lr 732 rr
57.6 rear 54.5 left 47.5 cross 6# bite

springs 600lf 680rf
225lr rear of bc
170rr on top but 1" behind
it was ok this way but when we tighten it then on comes the monster push and the steering is gone.
good forword bite but no roll or sidebite
ideas????

quote:
Originally posted by Kromulous:
Was the 4-link LR behind any better?

Still got the bad push?



rpm20
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 338
posted May 04, 2005 06:57 AM  
it started life as a 700lb but after a while your springs rate changes......test one sometime and you will see what i mean. thanks ron

quote:
Originally posted by CovertRacing:
I am just wondering where do you get a 680 right front spring? I have never heard of a 680 before. If your spring rates 680 there could be the start of your problem, your spring is bad and collapsing on you and making the car very inconsistent.


rpm20
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 338
posted May 04, 2005 07:01 AM  
it isnt collapsing, heck it only moves 1" or so.
maybe front roll center is too high???
i get about 2.8" high and 5" offset to drivers side when i compute it on the roll center program.


quote:
Originally posted by CovertRacing:
I am just wondering where do you get a 680 right front spring? I have never heard of a 680 before. If your spring rates 680 there could be the start of your problem, your spring is bad and collapsing on you and making the car very inconsistent.

[This message has been edited by rpm20 (edited May 04, 2005).]

Kromulous
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 796
posted May 04, 2005 07:25 AM  
When you say "you tighten it" how do you do it?

We run LR behind exlusively, and in order for it to turn we usually have to run alot of bite. I think you should up your cross to about 49%. Try to get about 75lb of bite or so.

Change the shocks to straight valves for now, 94's or 93's across the rear (40/40 bilstien) and 74's or 75's across the front. Lets just remove one variable until you get a handle on it, then you can fine tune the shocks later.

As for the RF movement, looks like you had a 3 compression, and 5 rebound shock on the LR, unless i read the numbers wrong, not used to bilstien stuff. We call that a tie down shock, once it compresses it doesnt wanna let loose. That will cause the RF issue, and alose make it loose off.


rpm20
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 338
posted May 04, 2005 07:43 AM  
to tighten we did the following ,not all at once but through a few test sessions.
1. we pulled the stagger down from 2" to 3/4"
2. we pulled rr 1" spacer and put into
left rear
3. pulled panhard bar off and put straight bar that mounts to under pinion and left side of frame
4. lowered rf air to 12 from 14
lowered both left to 8 from 10 psi

this is how we created tight push monster.

Kromulous
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 796
posted May 04, 2005 08:20 AM  
Something is off, you took out stagger, and a spacer out of the RR and added to the LR, all both of them moves did is add wedge. Should of tightened the car off, loosened it in.

You check the %'s once you got the car back home yet? it should show it has alot more cross then when you started.


Anyone got any ideas? i am at a loss here.

rpm20
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 338
posted May 04, 2005 08:39 AM  
tonight i will pull both front springs, run it through bump looking for binds in front.
set front roll center lower,
then will soften fronts to 550 650 and try to add cross / bite to get that rf static weight to within 30-80 lbs of the lf and see how that works.
any ideas....what do your fron static weight numbers look like??

[This message has been edited by rpm20 (edited May 04, 2005).]

rpm20
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 338
posted May 04, 2005 08:44 AM  
set her on scales last night after and we had 30 lbs lr bite , 48 cross, 58 rear with 20 gal fuel, 54.5 left, 3/4" stagger and j bar at 1" above pinion and 1" higher on frame.
the last test we had the rear loose but still had a slight push

quote:
Originally posted by Kromulous:
Something is off, you took out stagger, and a spacer out of the RR and added to the LR, all both of them moves did is add wedge. Should of tightened the car off, loosened it in.

You check the %'s once you got the car back home yet? it should show it has alot more cross then when you started.


Anyone got any ideas? i am at a loss here.



dirtbuster
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 2007
posted May 04, 2005 08:46 AM  
Moving the spacer from the RR to LR will take LR bite out of the car. Moving the Rr in puts more weight on that corner and moving the LR out takes weight off of it. I know on our car 1" just on the LR will make 20-25# difference so you prob took out close to 50# LR bite doing that. But thats just a guess. Now the stagger decrease will offset some of that but i dont know how much.

IF it were me I would put it on the scales the way it is now and see what changed. Then swap the spacer back the way you started and see if you get the numbers back. Then if it were me I would put about 50-75#LR in it and go from there, that will loosen the car up into the corner. You could also soften the LF spring that will loosend into the corner as well. If its still tight off you can either take bar angle out or soften the RF spring or stiffen the RR. Also you can put more angle in the Rear bar on the z link, that will loosen it off.

Is your RF 'a' frame or tie rod hitting the frame. You should get more than 1" travel. WE have a 700# spring on our car and have been getting 4". It is a dw-9 though. ARe you sure there isnt a bind in that 'a' frame effectively stiffeneing that spring and limiting travel?

why do you have the RR spring 1" behind? I would have it vert or even forward a little bit because with static trail in the RR and as the car rear steers the RR will move back and unload the spring, makeing it tigghter. By having the spring ahead a little bit it offsets that movemtn which willhelp laod it more evenly as well as stick that corner better.

How many degrees are you left bars? Thats easier than what hole they are in.

[This message has been edited by dirtbuster (edited May 04, 2005).]

Kromulous
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 796
posted May 04, 2005 08:55 AM  
I thought you were talking about spring rubbers, 1" spacer. Looks like you meant wheel spacers. I dont use wheel spacing, but do use spring rubbers alot.

Anyway, Dirtbuster, did you see his scale numbers above? the front end shows 653 LF and 429 RF. Does this sound close? seems to me somthing is massively out of whack up there.

Usually my front numbers are pretty close, but i dont run more than a 50lb split on front springs either.

Xtreme12x
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 874
posted May 04, 2005 09:10 AM  
You need to tear the whole front suspention apart, same with the rear and check everything over. Another problem is you are chaning way to much stuff at once. I'd go with a basic DW Setup to start.
48.5 Cross with 40 pounds of Left rear, shorty panhard 6 inches up on frame, even with pinion on housing. get yourself some new springs. I assume the springs you have are not afcoils. I"d get a set of 650/750 afcoils for the front end, and 225/200 for the back end, run your 225 on the cage behind and 200 on top, not behind or in front... Keep on top of your birdcages and greasing them.
You also need to get the front wheel weights closer. You need somewhere around 75-100 lb split between the lf and rf with the lf being heavy.
On your bar angles, run the lower left rear in the middle hole on the dw plug, top bar in the middle hole also to start. RR, at ride height index the birdcage straight up and down, with both bars level, with the lower bar at a slight uphill angle. Sounds like your trying to go too fast to quick, get the car where you can drive it and be comfortable, maybe it will lack some forward, some side bite, might be a little tight in the center, but where your at now you won't have much sucess. To me, it sounds like there is a bind somewhere, the car should work better than it is.

dirtbuster
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 2007
posted May 04, 2005 09:25 AM  
rpm10
at ride height looking in from the rear of the car, does your RR spring sit pretty much vert or is it angled, and how much? It needs to be angled in towards teh center of the car at the top. otherwise as the car rolls over the rearend moves left and the spring goes past vert and then starts to unload which can make it tight off.

krom,
yeah i noticed that, and it seems odd but in the first post he said his numbers were with driver. I am not used to looking at numbers with driver, so I didnt know how it would change putting all that weight in the seat. Our car with no driver is currently about 5# heavier on the LF than Rf, thats with 75#LR bite, and 50# spring split.


extreme,
I agree I definetly would change to 225lr 200 rr if it were mine. But I would put the RR spring on the front of the BC too. If I left it on top I would make certain it was always loading squarely throught travel not just at ride height too. I do also think there is a bind or something somewhere especially if he is only getting 1" RF travel.

rpm20
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 338
posted May 04, 2005 09:54 AM  
thanks, for everything,i have a lot to check, will keep you all posted.

i have run the rear through bump a few times and used compression on the rr at the same time......i dont believe its a rear bind........will concentrate on front. i did discover my rf shock had a sticky spot right at the beg. of travel.

[This message has been edited by rpm20 (edited May 04, 2005).]

rpm20
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 338
posted May 04, 2005 11:37 AM  
How many degrees are you left bars? Thats easier than what hole they are in.


left lower bar is at 15* left upper is at about 15*

it gets on the bars quick and seems to stay there until i let off a lot,

dirtbuster
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 2007
posted May 04, 2005 12:05 PM  
do you mean 5* lower? 15 woudl be a lot in the lower bar.

Thats pretty typical bar angles though. shouldnt be causing any problems there, may even be a little on the low side for a really slick track. Is your DW a short 4 link (roughly 12"L and 14"U) or long 4 link (roughly 15L 17U)? That plays into it too. The shorter bars react quicker and need less angle to start with.

rpm20
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 338
posted May 04, 2005 12:23 PM  
5* degrees up in lower bar..

quote:
Originally posted by dirtbuster:
do you mean 5* lower? 15 woudl be a lot in the lower bar.

Thats pretty typical bar angles though. shouldnt be causing any problems there, may even be a little on the low side for a really slick track. Is your DW a short 4 link (roughly 12"L and 14"U) or long 4 link (roughly 15L 17U)? That plays into it too. The shorter bars react quicker and need less angle to start with.



rpm20
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 338
posted May 04, 2005 02:18 PM  
yes short 4 link 12 lower 14 upper


quote:
Originally posted by dirtbuster:
do you mean 5* lower? 15 woudl be a lot in the lower bar.

Thats pretty typical bar angles though. shouldnt be causing any problems there, may even be a little on the low side for a really slick track. Is your DW a short 4 link (roughly 12"L and 14"U) or long 4 link (roughly 15L 17U)? That plays into it too. The shorter bars react quicker and need less angle to start with.



CovertRacing
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 16
posted May 05, 2005 08:29 AM  
I have spring tester, I test springs all the time. If you are only getting 1" of travel on the right front, something is bound up somewhere. This where your problem lays. Somebody already gave you good advice. Take the front end completely apart and start over with DirtWorks specs. Get a new front spring, 680LB is not going to cut it. Get a 750. Make sure your shocks are good. As you have found out now, the front end is so critical.

rpm20
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 338
posted May 05, 2005 08:10 PM  
checked front suspension tonight, found a shock with a snaggy spot on the rf, everything else bumped out good.

i did notice a lot of bump steer causing toe in and so i redid the spacers.
i hav softened the front springs to 550 and 650 at dirt works advice and reset all settings to dirtworks specs. the numbers work out good now so i need to get it on the track for more testing, we open on tuesday.
the soft spring package is a dryslick / high roll center setup.

quote:
Originally posted by CovertRacing:
I have spring tester, I test springs all the time. If you are only getting 1" of travel on the right front, something is bound up somewhere. This where your problem lays. Somebody already gave you good advice. Take the front end completely apart and start over with DirtWorks specs. Get a new front spring, 680LB is not going to cut it. Get a 750. Make sure your shocks are good. As you have found out now, the front end is so critical.


Kromulous
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 796
posted May 06, 2005 06:56 AM  
What were the scale numbers, and when do you run it next?

Interested in hearing how it runs.

rpm20
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 338
posted May 06, 2005 09:11 AM  
kromulus,
WE RUN NEXT TUES. FOR THE OPENER, USUALLY STARTS NORMAL THEN SLICKS FAST AS THE LATEMODELS COME OUT TO RUN.
here are the numbers
ride heights 5 - 5-1/2
5-3/4 6-1/4
lrl bar 3.5* up rrl bar 5*up to front
lru bar 20*up rru bar 5* down to back

PANHARD BAR AT 12-1/2"FRAME 10-1/4" PINION

pullbar 800 lb at 20*

3/16 toe out

spring / shocks 550- 3030 650- 4545
lr 200 behind on cage on coilover
rr 170 in front on bc on coilover
weights'
without driver 543 493
.
left 52.5 50.4 cross
.
723 651
bite 72#
57 rear
20 gaL FUEL NO LEAD

WITH DRIVER (175 LB)

586 499
.
LEFT 54.1 50.7
.
812 685

BITE 127# 57.9 REAR

20 GAL. FUEL NO LEAD

LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU THINK, NO BINDS AND FRONT ROLL CENTERS AT 1.5" ABOVE GROUND AND 3" TO PASS. SIDE

TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK, I AM OPEN TO SUGGESTIONS, I HAVE NOT TESTED THE NEW SETUP YET. I DID DISCOVER A TON OF BUMP STEER AND RESPACED MY BUMSTEER SPACERS, I INSTALLED LONGER LOWER BALL JOINTS OVER THE WINTER AND DIDNT THINK TO CHANGE MY BUMPSTEER SPACING.

[This message has been edited by rpm20 (edited May 06, 2005).]

Kromulous
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 796
posted May 06, 2005 09:49 AM  
Looks really good on paper.

Hope it runs well, you guys run regular shows on tuesdays? or is it just a practice type deal?


rpm20
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 338
posted May 06, 2005 02:13 PM  
thats our regular night bro, we got the tuesday night race market cornered huh?? lol


i will let ya know how she works.

more will be revealed, and if you know where that came from.......progress not perfection.
ron

quote:
Originally posted by Kromulous:
Looks really good on paper.

Hope it runs well, you guys run regular shows on tuesdays? or is it just a practice type deal?



rpm20
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 338
posted May 10, 2005 11:27 AM  
i had the 680 lb spring re rated by a freind and discovered that what was sold to me as a 680 by a reputable shop was in reality a 900.
that explains part of the apex push and no roll in front. we are now at 550 and 650 up front and i am considering installing a spring rubber in the rf also for tonights opener. suggestions???

Xtreme12x
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 874
posted May 10, 2005 12:03 PM  
NO to the rubber.. just run it as it is

A&M Motorsports
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 117
posted May 10, 2005 12:05 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by rpm20:
i had the 680 lb spring re rated by a freind and discovered that what was sold to me as a 680 by a reputable shop was in reality a 900.
that explains part of the apex push and no roll in front. we are now at 550 and 650 up front and i am considering installing a spring rubber in the rf also for tonights opener. suggestions???

Good luck tonight and can't wait to hear how you did. In reference to your RF spring, EVERY time I by something used by someone else there is something wrong with it. I now go to swap meets to look an B.S.

------------------
Artie Perilloux
A & M Motorsports

rpm20
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 338
posted May 10, 2005 12:11 PM  
thats what i will do.

quote:
Originally posted by Xtreme12x:
NO to the rubber.. just run it as it is


rpm20
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 338
posted May 10, 2005 12:12 PM  
i can relate to that!!!!!

Good luck tonight and can't wait to hear how you did. In reference to your RF spring, EVERY time I by something used by someone else there is something wrong with it. I now go to swap meets to look an B.S.


Kromulous
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 796
posted May 10, 2005 12:43 PM  
Amen, on the swap meets, been burned a few times myself.

That 900 pound spring could of been the core problem, now you may very well be DIALED!.

Good luck tonight, and keep us posted.

rpm20
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 338
posted May 10, 2005 01:24 PM  
thanks bro, will do.

quote:
Originally posted by Kromulous:
Amen, on the swap meets, been burned a few times myself.

That 900 pound spring could of been the core problem, now you may very well be DIALED!.

Good luck tonight, and keep us posted.



rpm20
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 338
posted May 11, 2005 05:30 AM  
went out to the opener last night, the car was great on the tacky track we had, in the heat i was too conservative but was just trying to get a feel for the new setup.
this is the first time i ever drove a mod that went where ever i wanted it to, the car stuck and worked everywhere and when the track got rougher i never felt the ruts at all. it was awesome.

in the b main i started 6th and they were only transfering 2 from 16 cars so my chances were slim.
the track was still tacky and we added some left rear bite (should have took some out)
i held my own until i pulled my left rear tire off the bead in turn 1 on a restart trying to make a pass. we had maybe 50 mods out there and it was the fastest i had ever seen the track, we held our own and stayed right in the fight, the only problem was at the end it was getting slick spots and when i hit one it came around on me and tore the tire off the bead but what a rocket, a little more side bite would help but i was really imressed at the soft spring setup, it was awesome !!!!

quote:
Originally posted by Kromulous:
Amen, on the swap meets, been burned a few times myself.

That 900 pound spring could of been the core problem, now you may very well be DIALED!.

Good luck tonight, and keep us posted.


[This message has been edited by rpm20 (edited May 11, 2005).]

Kromulous
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 796
posted May 11, 2005 07:15 AM  
Sounds like you got something to work with now. Is the track always pretty heavy like that?


rpm20
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 338
posted May 11, 2005 10:07 AM  
its heavy until the feature then drys out a bunch, this time of year isnt quite so dry at the end but i need to come up with a dry slick change to get it to keep competitive now, maybe 40 lbs added over rr axle and a lower pinion hole on my j bar?
it was drying and loosing side bite during the consy.

not un drivable but could have been more sidebite and roll.


quote:
Originally posted by Kromulous:
Sounds like you got something to work with now. Is the track always pretty heavy like that?



Kromulous
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 796
posted May 11, 2005 10:17 AM  
You might wanna make up another bar and change it when the features roll around, or the track goes.

Maybe make a striaght bar for the under pinion mount deal.

The led will help as well.

Leave the J-bar on, and located and fit it up without moving the rear end side to side location. So all you have to do is jack it up and change it when its time.

I made the same thing for our car this year, got a J-bar on then fit a straight bar to go on when i need it. Only thing i wish i did was buy that mount with the lower mount, and make a bar for it.

rpm20
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 338
posted May 11, 2005 11:49 AM  
thanks krom,
i have one of those and the mount is on it, i just didnt want to take it too far too soon, might have helped, i dont know, that nasty push still leaves a bad impression and i dont want it back, lol

quote:
Originally posted by Kromulous:
You might wanna make up another bar and change it when the features roll around, or the track goes.

Maybe make a striaght bar for the under pinion mount deal.

The led will help as well.

Leave the J-bar on, and located and fit it up without moving the rear end side to side location. So all you have to do is jack it up and change it when its time.

I made the same thing for our car this year, got a J-bar on then fit a straight bar to go on when i need it. Only thing i wish i did was buy that mount with the lower mount, and make a bar for it.



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