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Author Topic:   lifting the lf on a dw8
paulickr
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 110
posted January 26, 2005 05:18 AM  
i see a lot of dw cars where the left front is off the ground quite a bit and looks to me like the undersling is either very modified or moved above the rear or removed completely.
i have mine modified to be lower but theres no way i could get that kind of travel, can you guys who have this on your cars tell me how you do it and if the undersling is cut out then tell me how you put the tail strength back in it so the tail wont fold under if you take a bad tail punch.
also what about relocating the shock / slider mounts lower to give the rear more lower travel??
lets hear other ideas and solutions also

thanks guys

[This message has been edited by paulickr (edited January 26, 2005).]

dirtbuster
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 2007
posted January 26, 2005 07:19 AM  
I woulndt modify the LR to drop any furthur. IF you have a DW that has the bent lower tube then you really shouldnt need to let it go any furhtur.

Carrying the LF is easy, Use a really soft RR spring, more angle in the LR bars or panhard bar and that shoudl get it. Put a chain on the LF lower control arm so that ithas an inch or 2 of slack at ride height and it will really get her in the air.

paulickr
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 110
posted January 26, 2005 07:38 AM  
i modified the lower undersling when i got the used chassis last year ,it was beat up.
so i installed a kick from between the the down tubes that gave me 1.5" more and i dont have any dents in it from last year so it never made any significant contact.
my rear bar angles using a plug on the left lower were the lower 3 holes from the top at 15 degrees and the upper was 2 holes from the top at about 17 degrees.
it seemed to get on the bars fast and stay ther for a long time but only patted the track with the left front tire and didnt seem to lift it much.

paulickr
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 110
posted January 26, 2005 07:41 AM  
dirtbuster, where are your springs located??
i had mine lr behind on the bc and rr on the swingarm.

dirtbuster
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 2007
posted January 26, 2005 07:55 AM  
LR was clamped in front, RR on top housing. We moved the RR to front of the RR BC and it helped to keep the RR from collapsing and keep the LF on the track. If you ask me jacking the LR way n the air doesnt necessarily make the car faster. Keeping it on the ground or just skimiing the ground seems to be faster all around.

With that much angle in the lower bar you shouldnt have nay trouble getting it up. But Personally I think that is too much angle. top bar is fine. Bottom bar id stay under 10degrees.

The reason the underslung bar isnt getting hit is because your shocks are stopping it before getting there. This is hard on shocks. Under power the rearend moves down and slams the shock to full extension. I would figure out a way to limit the travel without doing that to the shock. Use a limiter chain ro cable or make something to clamp to the undrslung for the rearend to rest on. You have to have someehitn gthere to stop the rearend from falling out and I would rather see it be a chain or the underslung bar instead of the shock.

[This message has been edited by dirtbuster (edited January 26, 2005).]

paulickr
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 110
posted January 26, 2005 08:14 AM  
thanks for the help bro!!!

Xtreme12x
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 874
posted January 26, 2005 08:16 AM  
What are you running for shocks and spring rates exactly. Also, if your running a shorty bar run about 4 inches of rake with the pinion side one hole below pinion. Flatten out your bottom bar more, and add a little angle to your top bar. On our Hoffman 4 link we rarely lifted the left front, but when we clamped it up, and took the top bars off we sure did. What we did was put on some really long trailing arm mounts that get the trailing arms about 8 inches below the bottom of the housing tube. Then get yourself about a 15 heim to heim bar length on the left rear, then on the right run your long bar in the same hole as the left side trailing arm mount on the housing and run ir in the middle hole on the chassis. 750/800 front springs, 225 lr clamped up and 175 on top rr. Short panhard with about 4 inches of rake and it'll wheelie all day long, but you also must remember you have to have the motor to pull the car in the air like that.

FlyNLoIMCA17
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 753
posted January 26, 2005 05:25 PM  
I have a question....... WHY? Why do you have to have the LF off the ground? I PERSONALLY want mine on the ground doing its fair share of work. But if you have to have it off the ground..... yes you can lower the RR spring and also soften it and/or put more angle in the RR spring (meaning the top of the spring leaned in towards the center of the car) that will help pick up the LF also changing bar angles will make it easier to tote the tire.

Hope that helps.

Xtreme12x
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 874
posted January 26, 2005 07:02 PM  
Take a peek at most 4 bar Z link cars running up front... Very rarely are they not on three wheels, it is just geometry, and the weight transfer to the right side picking up the left front, and also the Left rear driving hard into the track and picking the chassis up a good 6 inches helps get the left front in the air.

donslink1
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 318
posted January 26, 2005 07:04 PM  
I agree with you keep all 4 wheels on the ground, It looks cool as h#ll with it in the air, BUT only a few guys I know, look real cool, because they can control it, you dont look that cool when you are pushing to the wall cutting people off.
Its funny, when we got our Pierce car, I asked Bob, "these cars will carry the lf right"
he said ya, but why do you want to do that, And the only thing I could come up with was to look cool, I felt stupid, he said keep all 4 on the ground, you look real cool in the winners circle

dluna
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 334
posted January 26, 2005 10:34 PM  
MOST of the really fast guys I have seen have the LF barely touching the ground. When they hit any type of rut on the right side at all, the LF will come up. You can tell they are totally hooked up. So I think if you can get enough forward bite in the car that it will lift the LF about a foot or so off the ground, then loosen it up a little bit to calm it down would be optimal. I know during our first practice for this year, I'll keep tightening up the car until it pulls the LF, then tune from there. Seems somewhat logical at least.

GRTWallbanger
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 196
posted January 27, 2005 12:11 PM  
How do the front springs effect how easy the LF comes off the ground.You run a 800 RF and 750LF.
I thought most 4-bar and 4-bar z-link run a heavier spring on the LF?

zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1875
posted January 27, 2005 12:37 PM  
the stiff lf spring is for entry. so when the cars enter hooked up hard, and let off hard they dont jump loose. it just depends on the driver, some run stiffer rf some run stiffer lf.
as far as hiked up... i go for a good handling car, not lf x amount off the ground. some tracks that may mean having the lf way off the ground, other times it may be car level.
dont go for a cool look, go for fast.

dirtbuster
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 2007
posted January 27, 2005 01:14 PM  
I wouldn't compromise entry or middle by changing springs, etc just to get the LF in the air on the way out of the corner. IF it ends up that way then so be it. Some cars are more apt to do this than others.

4 or 5 years ago the Super late models at our track were pretty flat cars, then guys started running on the hook and they were hooked up hard but it was an on/off deal. Once they hooked they had to stay in the gas. The left front was yanked way up in the air and they hauled out of the corner but if for some reason they had to lift or when they got to the next corner to lift the car would crash down and get all squirrely. They have learned to calm the car down and you hardly ever see the LF in the air anymore and the cars enter the corner easier. But I think they are still hooked as hard or harder than a few years ago. In other words getting the LF in the air is one thing, getting the car hooked up and fast is another.

[This message has been edited by dirtbuster (edited January 27, 2005).]

FlyNLoIMCA17
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 753
posted January 27, 2005 03:47 PM  
donslink1,
Thats exactly what I was getting at! Thank You! When the LF is off the ground it BINDS the chassis! I sure some people will disagree with that, but that is my experience. If you were supposed to keep the LF in the air then chassis builders wouldn't waste their time putting suspension on the LF! 4 tires is better than 3.
If you think you look real cool with the LF 2 feet off the ground, then go for it. But your gonna look silly when someone who's "hooked-up" on ALL 4 tires laps you! It will happen eventually. You look cooler standing in victory lane!

Like zero said, if the LF has to come up to be fast, by all means let it. But go for fast not cool!

GRTWallbanger
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 196
posted January 27, 2005 04:49 PM  
I 'm not saying picking the LF up is the fastest way around the track.It depends a lot on the track.weather it is flat, banked, etc.
I have seen fast cars that carry the LF and i have seen fast cars flat as a board, BUT, if you have a car that is flat as a board ALL the time and does not hook up AT all(as far as forward bite)My thought is that if the LF comes off the ground you at least have some weight transfer and some forward bite.About the onnly thing i have not tried is the front springs.Thats why i asked that question.
Anybody thoughts?

dluna
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 334
posted January 27, 2005 05:25 PM  
I'm with you GRTWall...Lifting the LF off the ground to look cool is the least of my concerns (although my 5 year old neice asked me why I didn't have one of my tires way up in the air like them other guys did...that looked WOW she said). I've just not seen many really fast guy run that didn't just barely lift that LF during a feature or something. It just looks like the weight is transfering just right and they are getting optimal traction. Again, I'm talking just barely off the ground and only once or twice during a feature. I definitely don't want to run on 3 wheels. I just want that feeling that the car has great forward bite and is super tight so that I can calm it down just a bit from there to make it much more driveable and faster through the corner.

A few years ago, just about ever mod at the track we ran at had the LF pulled off the ground. It seems as though that fad has come and gone already though. A LOT more cars running 99% of the time on all 4's.

joeltjen
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 182
posted January 27, 2005 08:26 PM  
it's all driver preference, some cars will work good some will not. i used to think 4 on the ground was the way to go. we put a bunch of changes in our car at the end of the year and, not trying to, got into a three wheel set up. our car got faster, i picked up over 300 rpm over our best night all year. i'm not saying your car will get faster because everthing else must fit the set up. we have a "long" shorty bar, long torque arm, lots of rear steer, ect. i'm just beginning to see how this set up in our car all ties together. we're not changing much for next year except putting in mounts to try a pull bar. there's no way to tell if it's gonna work unless you try it. my advice is to try it but i feel you will need as long a shorty bar as you can get with lots of rear steer (our lr moves ahead about 2+"). our car is a short swing arm lr and med swing arm rr with tons of angle in the bars and lots (i mean LOTS) of bite. we run a fast high bank 1/2 mile and we can carry the lf from the time i pick up the throttle till i let off for the next corner. remember total package setup here but this is one of the most driveable and stable cars ive driven. if the lf is off the ground the weight has gone to the other three wheels plain and simple. out in jamestown nd i've seen the latemodels and mods carry the lf for a couple laps without it ever touching the ground (short 3/8 highbank bull ring)

doubletrouble racing
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 88
posted January 27, 2005 08:43 PM  
There was one guy who frequented our track,he was an IMCA points chaser and past national champion.He has one of those 4 bar z links and would run all over the track with only 3 wheels on the ground.I saw one guy giving him more **** then he could handel one night ,As soon as he set the car up in the turn and pick up that left front wheel the guy behind him would just bump him alittle this little nudge would knock him off his mark everytime then would have to re-set the car all over again. The points chaser driver is one of the best around and I dont want to take anything from this guy he is good,but I would think you would want to keep all FOUR wheels on the ground although I guess they do it cause it looks COOL!

------------------
The opinions,thoughts,and comments of double trouble are that of the car owner and are not affiliated with the driver "Dirt Track Girl" , the track Hill Country Raceway ,or any other outside person or institution

sdracer82b
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 32
posted January 27, 2005 08:54 PM  


 
same driver same car diff track

Xtreme12x
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 874
posted January 27, 2005 09:04 PM  
Same Driver DIFFERENT CARS... The one where he is on three was his 04 car that he sold on his site a while back.

FlyNLoIMCA17
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 753
posted January 28, 2005 12:03 AM  
yep, those are different cars. The one entitled "jet" is his 04 car and the "vegas" pic is the 05. (notice the different frame colors, also)

paulickr
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 110
posted January 28, 2005 05:42 AM  
wow , this has been a hot topic,
the setup i run is a 4-z as i stated earlier with 225lr,250rr,650lf and 680rf
4545lf shock,5555rf, 3050lr and 3030rr.
shorty panhard 13" eye to eye (needs to be 19 this season) with 5" rake
13" lower 4 bar and 15" upper 4 bar.

this seasons changes will be clamped 220 with coilover 3050 on lr (may try locking the lr cage and taking top lr bar off in practice also)
and 200 spring on top of rr
and weve moved the cell so the long sides are right to left and centered in the chassis with it close to the rearend as we could get it.
(last year she entered good but pushed up and forword when i picked up the throttle so i had to be really careful)
other than that all will be the same, any comments on the effects of these changes???

[This message has been edited by paulickr (edited January 28, 2005).]

zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1875
posted January 28, 2005 08:41 AM  


 
Here are 2 pics from different nights, only about a few races apart. same car, same motor, same driver.

paulickr
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 110
posted January 28, 2005 09:20 AM  
so what made the difference, any setup changes???


quote:
Originally posted by zeroracing:
Here are 2 pics from different nights, only about a few races apart. same car, same motor, same driver.


zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1875
posted January 28, 2005 10:51 AM  
the diff was... hiked up-2 holes up on lr four link and bc adjustment.
level-2 holes down on 4 link(only like 8 deg total) and bc adjustment, also rr had like 15 deg angle in the rearward bar on the level.
on that track the level was about 1 sec a lap faster than the hiked up, hiked up was too hard to drive in traffic and turn with. but on some slick bigger tracks i hike the car up that much or more, i have room to act a fool on the gas
i have one pic wiht teh bar in the middle of those two holes, and the car is packing the lf about 1-2 inches.
later
jason

paulickr
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 110
posted January 28, 2005 11:01 AM  
what bc adjustments were made, where are your springs, shocks etc.

are we talkin lower bar,upper bar, both?

we run ours with the lower in like the 3rd hole and the upper in the 4th of 6 then the lower on the z we run up 10 degrees to the front and the rear 10 degrees down to the rear.
the front tire just pats the track under power.
what effect you think clamping the lr spring in front on the shock will have????

quote:
Originally posted by zeroracing:
the diff was... hiked up-2 holes up on lr four link and bc adjustment.
level-2 holes down on 4 link(only like 8 deg total) and bc adjustment, also rr had like 15 deg angle in the rearward bar on the level.
on that track the level was about 1 sec a lap faster than the hiked up, hiked up was too hard to drive in traffic and turn with. but on some slick bigger tracks i hike the car up that much or more, i have room to act a fool on the gas
i have one pic wiht teh bar in the middle of those two holes, and the car is packing the lf about 1-2 inches.
later
jason

[This message has been edited by paulickr (edited January 28, 2005).]

zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1875
posted January 29, 2005 09:53 PM  
The BC adjustment was on my BSB birdcages, the upper has two rows of holes, and the level car was in top of the back row, and the hiked up was in bottom of the front hole.
the rear springs are 275lr and 250 on swing arm rr.
i dont change the lower link much, just run it about level. upper bar gets changed.
As far as shocks, I have a large selection of split valves custom made for my car, so i am not going to tell you them because i paid alot of money for them....just kidding a set of bilstien 3030 across the back. i can not afford too many shocks(but there is alot of potential in shocks).
the main reason my car makes such dyrastic changes with a small bar change in the upper is the lower link. the car runs a 20 lower and 16 upper. which makes the upper bar changes much more noticable.
as far as clamping lr spring in front this will cause the car to hike up on the gas, but when you let off the gas... it will drop the lr spring out from under the car and the car will fall down hard if your not careful(which will really upset the car).
if you do go with lr in front i would strongly suggest a set of split valves, if you pm i could give you some idea's on the numbers, also need to know what brand your partial too.
anohter note with the lr in front clamped, it compresses the spring off the tire grabing and wrapping the rear upward...what if you hit a slick spot and the tire never grabs, or breaks trac for a sec then grabs....whereas with lr behind you can get body roll to force the tire into the ground and start the hike up.

[This message has been edited by zeroracing (edited January 29, 2005).]

andykmod
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 351
posted February 04, 2005 01:20 PM  

 
How about this guy ???

duece
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 28
posted February 04, 2005 05:01 PM  
Now they will tell ya that he's not fast! LOL!

FlyNLoIMCA17
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 753
posted February 04, 2005 05:26 PM  
Talk about side bite !!!! YIKES!! LOL!

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