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Author Topic:   IMCA Rules
Alltel
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 180
posted January 02, 2005 08:50 PM  
Could someone post the new rules pertaining to the panhard bar, battery location, and stud girdles exactly as they are stated in the rule book? I don't want to have to pay them just to find out the few changes.

Larry Lundin
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 45
posted January 11, 2005 10:34 AM  
panhard ban no longer than 19 inches in length, no stud girdles and the battery has to be mounted between the frame rails

zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1875
posted January 11, 2005 10:44 AM  
i think it is no panhard shorter than 19 inches. also they have something about coil overs, you have to take a regular shock then put a coil over kit on it for a 5 inch spring. no threaded bodies(is what i heard) because that would be too easy, and cost less.
the panhard bar length rule makes NO sense, the stud girdle rule is the same.
i think it is about time for a new sanctioning body, one that people are elected to office, and everyone votes on rules.


dirtbuster
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 2007
posted January 11, 2005 10:49 AM  
As long as people keep going back they wont care what people think of them. Only when they start losing car counts will they notice and pay attention to the racer.

add to the list:
max rake on the deck is now 6" (from 4" i think)
no chains or cables in the rear suspension


mod70
unregistered Total posts: 2007
posted January 11, 2005 01:54 PM           send a private message to dirtbuster   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/QuoteBBBBBB
Z for president!

FlyNLoIMCA17
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 753
posted January 11, 2005 03:59 PM  
IMCA is becoming a joke. I don't run at a sanctioned track but we run their rules. I agree the panhard bar rule makes absolutely NO sense to me. What difference does it make if we run a 10" bar??? Next thing they won't allow plugs in the lower bars........they're retards. No chains or cables in the rear????? Can't see the reasoning for that unless they are concerned that if they fall off and then hit someones radiator fan?????? But that could happen with just about anything. It would be nice if when they change rules they would provide a reason as to why, but they don't have to because people will follow them anyways.

The stud girdle rule is dumb. That doesn't do anything but possibly RAISE costs due to the damage of race engines with improperly aligned valve trains at high rpm's....

The deck rake????? Why don't they just flatten out the deck and let us run a spoiler instead?

dirtbuster
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 2007
posted January 11, 2005 04:09 PM  
Teh no chain/cable rule i bet is to get rid of the overslung cars. Without a chain or cable to limit rearend travel it can be hard on shocks.

I think in the long run a lot of rules are made based on the amount of money sponsors will give based on the use of their products because of the rules. Or to cut out products by people that dont want to help out IMCA with their money fund.

m33mcg
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 96
posted January 11, 2005 08:59 PM  
I have been reading this forum now fr only a few months and have not read much positive about IMCA. I myself believe they have a good philosophy but are not applying common sence to the rule making process. There are alot of great people with tons of racing knowledge who care about our sport or addiction. With all this vast resource on this forum we could make some type of difference and if not get togather and set our own rules and regulation. This would take some time to get organized but it could happen with some commitment and perserverance.

Mike

superdave
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 280
posted January 11, 2005 09:26 PM  
Rules are for limiting spending and long term costs, and for equalizing the competition for fans and racers. Racers keep coming up with ways to get ahead and rule writers reel them back in. Nothing new since racing started except every track used to be different and now you have major sanctions making things universal so you can race where you want to race.

No stud girdle, no roller cam and stud mounted rockers mean you have to run less RPM. Less RPM means motor last longer so racers can keep racing. It also means more equal motors because lower RPM motors cost less. Simply price a roller cam and lifters, rev kit, roller springs and shaft rockers and you can see how the price of engines went down. Price a Dart headed long block that will turn the RPM that roller setup will turn and you will see more savings.

Short bar means the cars move around alot and more traction. The tire helps limit traction but racers have found ways to make it work much better. Minimum bar lengths and no chains etc. means you have limits on how far things travel and how much bite you can get. It's backing down the traction so the tire can do it's job. Less tire frying 3 wheeled roller cammed rocket engine cars means tires last longer to save money. Coilovers with springs you already own means you don't have to buy sliders anymore which have gotten really expensvive.

When you are selling your new sanction idea to promoters how do you garauntee the racing will be close and he will have a track full of cars? If you run all these open rules how long will that car count last? How long before guys who have less money move on to look for a win elsewhere. THere are far more cost concious racers than the internet forums reflect. They show it by racing tracks where the racing is cheaper (not cheap but cheaper) and the opportunity to win exists more. How will you garauntee to your racers that they have an equal opportunity to win?

Running a sanction has to be way less fun than racing it. Race while you can.

GOod luck,
SUperdave

Xtreme12x
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 874
posted January 11, 2005 10:43 PM  
Minimum bar lengths and no chains etc. means you have limits on how far things travel and how much bite you can get. It's backing down the traction so the tire can do it's job. Less tire frying 3 wheeled roller cammed rocket engine cars means tires last longer to save money


Should I send some photos from 2001 when we ran our harris car on a long 2 link with a long panhard bar and we were pulling wheelies twice what the 4 link cars now do??

Oh and i can get as much travel as i want without a chain... the USAR sanction is picking up here in the heart of YMCA

Speaking of tires lasting longer, why not let them groove them in the factory lines? Makes the tire last twice as long...
well wait, that would take away from imca's profit since less tires would be sold

donslink1
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 318
posted January 12, 2005 05:04 AM  
Im with you xtreme12, the panhard bar length is not going to stop these cars from 3 wheeling,
and the no roller cams thing superdave is saying, it is not to lower rpm, I went to the supernationals and talked to some of the guys, They are turning 8500 rpm on a solidcam, all that means is you have to spend $2000 on a real good solid cam set up.

and the reason for the chain thing is to stop the Pierce cars, and the skyrockets with the pullbar and the lift bar(brake bar)
you can have a chain at the end of a lift bar, but if you are considering that a lift bar then you cant have a pull bar.
most of us were saying that we dont run a pull and lift bar, we run a pull bar and a brake bar, It does no lifting at all

MAN, I HATE IMCA

istock59
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 501
posted January 12, 2005 06:24 AM  
When I read the topic title, why did I KNOW Superdave would be on here singing their praises? A broken record bud....

Alltel
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 180
posted January 12, 2005 09:27 AM  
I was wondering about the exact wording of the rules because I have a J-bar that is slightly longer than 19" What happens if I get to a track and have to take angle out of the bar? Now I can adjust myself out of being legal?

I've got a brand new freshly painted chassis and body that I'm now going to have to rip apart and weld on so I can move my battery. I can understand the rule, but why not give us the rules before everyone starts building or ordering new chassis.

I've never had a roller motor, but I run stud girdles. In fact, I don't turn more than 7000, at least not on purpose, but I like the insurance they give me. IMCA made a rule they couldn't enforce with the roller cams and now they are trying to make more rules to make it easier. I race against roller motors every week. It makes me no difference. I like to hear them coming through the pits. I just smile every time I blow past them on the track.

The chain rule is preposterous. I dont run one because I like an underslung car, but they help a lot of people. Want to get by without it? Just make different mounting holes for your shocks and you can adjust travel that way, and every time you pull apart a shock, I know where you can send the thank you letter.

As far as the panhard bar goes, that's just personal preference. I've seen long bar cars three wheel out of control and short bar cars as smooth as glass. Limiting the length isn't going to change a thing.

As far as equal competition goes, I've been to tracks that race 7 different class, several of them IMCA sanctioned, and I can easily pick 4 out of the 7 winners every night. Usually 7 out of 7. So can the fans. Just look at the attendence.

Sorry for the ranting, but I worked my tail off building everything on this car myself, and now that I'm done and proud of it, IMCA says I have to redo it. You can imagine my enthusiasm for IMCA.

P.S.
Limiting Spending? Take a look at the trailers and tell me these guys are small spenders. Every race day I pull my homebuilt open trailer right in between the Macks and Freightliners, and want to roll on the ground laughing as the words ECONOMY MODIFIEDS rolls around in my head.

NJantz
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 755
posted January 12, 2005 10:01 AM  
So Superdave, I guess we won't see anymore 3 wheeling because the jbars are all longer now, and everybody will replace their 7300rpm rev chip with a 7000. Yeahh Right.
I promise you that those motors will turn the same rpm with or without stud girdles and the LF will still get hiked up just u wait and see. By removing stud girdles, You've just increased the failure rate. Logic works both ways.

Why not create some rules that have some meat to them and really make a difference.
Ever thought about restricting everyone to flat tops? That would make the whole bottom end last longer, and the tires too!
That rule would cause too much of a ruckus tho. Poor ole Vinton might never be the same.

Believe me, the modified people are talking and looking for alternatives.

P.s.

I know u hate quickchanges too. Just so u know the last time I bent up a rearend in my mod it took $600 for a new housing with brackets from AFCO.

Well I now have a late model that had a bent rearend. Guess what, it cost me $160 to fix it. All I needed was a tube and a seal. Whooda thunk it.

P.s.s. And the s**** yard gives me more per pound of Aluminum than it does steel.

[This message has been edited by NJantz (edited January 12, 2005).]

NJantz
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 755
posted January 12, 2005 10:02 AM  
Alltel- u they also require a window net this year. U can still race with arm restraints but if u do u also have to have a window net.

Your panhard must be 19" center of rodend to center of rodend.

[This message has been edited by NJantz (edited January 12, 2005).]

Kromulous
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 796
posted January 12, 2005 10:36 AM  
If they were turning flat tappers 8500 rpm last year, they wont this year. 8500 and a solid cam with no stud girdles or shaft rockers is going to be ugly. Parts will be flying every which direction on the track.

Flat tops would be good, but teching would be hard. Unless you had a scoped camera or some such. Possable thou. Although you could just angle mill the heads down to 35cc or so and get the compression back and your still making the same or close power wise.

Dont get me wrong, i dont like IMCA but it looks like to me there trying to do something. More than i can say for some others.

NJantz has the right idea i think, Late Models...

dirtbuster
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 2007
posted January 12, 2005 10:59 AM  
superdave,
You said lower rpm motors cost less. Id have to disagree there. Sure you might cut down the guys turning 8000 but there still gonna push 7500, and you still need good parts to do that. Your not gonna have anybody suddenly go from 8000 and decide 6500 is good enough. Plus If guys are limited to a lower rpm because they cant run a stud girdle to stabilize things then they will start spending extra money on head work, fancy cam grinds and any little trick of the day to get the most they can out of there motors and the lower rpms. I think you will see guys buildign a lot of 400"+ stuff jsut to keep there rpm down but get back some of the torque you lose from the rpm and gear. And in my opinion when you start talkign that size motor you are talking a good chunk of money no matter if you turn it 7000 or 8000.

To me a 100$ stud girdle seems like a lot easier deal and will make it easier for the guys trying to make the best of the valvetrain they have.


NJantz
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 755
posted January 12, 2005 12:10 PM  
Kromulous- I never thought I would ever have a late model. Always believed what everyone said. Until I blew up my two modified engines, and bent a rear clip this season and took the year off and helped on a friend's SUPR late model would I ever have considered it. Definitely opened my eyes enough that I went out and sold my mod and bought a late model.

We raced my friends latemodel at least 30 times this past season. All he tore up was 2 tires(our fault), 1 rear bumper, 1 a-arm, 1-shock rod-end, and bent the crossmember for the strut rods. The damage bill came to under $400 for the season. You definitely don't tear up as many parts with the latemodel as you do a modified.

We were on a Hoosier 55 compound that wears just like an American Racer. The Hoosier costs $125, the American Racer costs $105. So tire costs really weren't an issue.

The SUPR spec motor will cost about $8,000 if you build it yourself. A good chunk of that expense is in the valve train, heads, and intake. The heads are aluminum 11x Brodix heads. Aluminum makes repair work easy unlike steel heads. These motors can last 2-3 seasons. Only minimal port work is allowed on the heads due to the fact that they are stamped in the ports and teched. The spec motor puts out about 600hp. The average imca modified motor around these parts puts out 540hp and that is straight from the mouth of a respected area engine builder.

The best part is nobody can claim it for pennies on the dollar.

From what I've seen, the repair parts are cheaper, the racing is cleaner, the gears are cheaper, and the motors are higher quality and longer lasting. Oh yeah, instead of racing for 50 to start, 500 to win it's 100 to start, 1000 to win.


Kromulous
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 796
posted January 12, 2005 12:39 PM  
Yep, talked to a local LM Driver here and they ran MAC's last year and made money on the year. Excluding food, plus i think there pit guys paid there own way in (Family). I'd take that deal anyday.

Also, a decent rolling Pierce, Skyrocket, or Lighting will run you about 6000 to 8000k around here. Then you can buy a nice 2 year old LM Rayburn, Masterbuilt for 5k, with QC and decent shocks & wheels / tires on it. Boggles me.

Only offsetting exspense is the engine. Which a local builder wants 12,500 for a 415 cubed UMP Mod motor, at about 700 hp. If you played it smart and bought a used LM engine off a reputibale engine builder you could save money there as well.

Plus, our local LM track pays 1500 to win, and 250 to start.

Quick, someone smack me up side the head with a baseball bat, were still running Mods this year LOL !! ...

zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1875
posted January 12, 2005 01:00 PM  
question?
no chain/cable what about nylon strap??? that would be legal according to the rule and really po a track offical.

dirtbuster
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 2007
posted January 12, 2005 01:06 PM  
zero,
I was thinking the same thing. Use an old seat belt, and it would already have a plate on one end to bolt through. OR use the buckle as well and you could have a quick detach limiter strap. Use the old slide type and you now have an adjustable limiter. The possiblities are there.

dirtbuster
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 2007
posted January 12, 2005 01:08 PM  
another thing i thought about is. Does it mean chains or cables that are actively used in the suspension. I have seen guys run a safety cable around the frame and through their spring in case it pops out it wont go flying back at the next driver. I guess maybe those arent legal now either?

NJantz
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 755
posted January 12, 2005 01:36 PM  
ahh heck

[This message has been edited by NJantz (edited January 12, 2005).]

dluna
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 334
posted January 12, 2005 04:15 PM  
Those are very interesting numbers you all are throwing out there with the Mod / LM comparison. The only thing I wonder about is how much seat time it takes to controllably run a Mod vs. a LM. Last year was my first year in a Mod, and I definitely feel that Iím not ready to jump into a LM. Iíve heard both sides of which one is easier to drive. If a LM is really that much cheaper to run than a Mod, you are going to start getting guys jumping directly into LMís for their first racecars. Then damage costs start to go up because you have guys that donít know what the heck they are doing spinning out in front of you, or not holding their line, etc. at a much faster speed.

Now guys that have lots of experience in the Mods, I think it would be a very good idea to move to a LM. $1000 to win at the track I run at for the LM vs. $400 to win for the Mods.

FlyNLoIMCA17
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 753
posted January 12, 2005 04:33 PM  
I run safety cables on my front and rear springs just in case.

I have been thinking about late models myself. My Dad wants to go to asphalt, which I do too but that is REALLY expensive around here.

My $5000 SOLID cammed engine turns 8,000 R's every night and could turn plenty more. That $5000 is if you bought all the parts new but I give $1000 for the short block used from another racer and put a set of USED $300 World Sportsman II heads on it and it can hang with any car I've raced against as far as power goes.

Oh, and I'm NOT taking my stud girdles off, I give too much GOOD money to take them off and throw em' in the floor or sell them for $20.

And I know PLENTY of NEW drivers whose first race cars are Latemodels and they do pretty dang good. We also have a class around here called Late Model Stock which is just the same as a Late Model chassis wise, but the engine has a $800 claim and they have to pull 17" of vaccumm. Sounds like a good class to me.

FlyNLoIMCA17
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 753
posted January 12, 2005 04:36 PM  
NJantz,

you have a good point about the junk yard. Aluminum brings alot more than steel does when you tear up parts.

NJantz
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 755
posted January 13, 2005 05:46 AM  
Dluna- A while back one of the racing publications asked several top late model drivers (Bloomer, Moyer, Wallace) that had driven modifieds which was more difficult to drive. It was basically a toss-up. They did however have great respect for the level of competition that exists in the majority of modified racing. Although I don't have much experience in a lm, I felt comfortable making the switch.

superdave
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 280
posted January 13, 2005 10:04 AM  
Of course no one addressed my questions about how you would satisfy the promoters or fans. You only talked about what you own and what you plan to do as individuals. That's why you couldn't form your own sanction or union. Everyone thinks they need this or that to win and when someone talks about disallowing something for the betterment of the show or equalizing the competition racers come unglued. You can speed up the back of the field or slow down the front of it. It's cheaper and smarter in the long run to slow them down. Every track and sanction knows it and does it.

Parts left out cost nothing and don't break. Cars that race the whole race and race close together sell tickets and convince people to start racing or move up. Runaway wins by the same people over and over gets old fast.

People who don't want close racing probably aren't capable of out driving the other drivers. If you got the talent then show it whatever the rules. If you are dependent on a particular setup or part to get an advantage on the competition then you are going to be dissapointed your whole racing life. You act like you have no responsibility to the track or the fans for putting on a good show.

Cars aint chit. The drivers are the ones who win races and the only way to show who the best driver is is to keep the competition close.

Good Luck,
Superdave

Xtreme12x
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 874
posted January 13, 2005 12:18 PM  
What you said makes no sense...

To Satisfy the Fans? You have to produce a good show reguardless of the cars on the track. The YMCA Rules are a total joke.
Superdave still hasn't removed his head from IMCA"s Anus

zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1875
posted January 13, 2005 12:31 PM  
Haha, this post will be deleted soon. Lets see superdave, what do you call close racing? Central mo speedway has almost non ofthe silly imca rules, yet has some of the most competitive racing in the nation. anynight any of about 15 cars can win. as far as drivers go, cms has some of the best in the nation every week also. a packed house of fans are there.
now as for imca looking out for the racer, i looked at the http://www.salinaspeedway.com website, and well it does not say how many cars are averaged but how many are there? do they get more than lakeside or cms? also the payout page says show me the money when you click on it.... still waiting to see some money only 400 to win
also winston speedway went imca this season also, they are a good track, but after going imca the car count will probally fall off worse than it was.

[This message has been edited by zeroracing (edited January 13, 2005).]

zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1875
posted January 13, 2005 12:39 PM  
saying cars aint....
what does that even mean?
anymore a car is as important as the driver, the days of he has just plain got it is out the window.
take little boney(dustin boney i am sure some have heard of him). he has got it, but his cars are set up perfectly all the time.
YOUR ONLY AS FAST AS YOUR CAR WILL ALLOW UNLESS YOUR GOD YOU CAN NOT BEND THE LAWS OF PHYSICS!!!!

dirtbuster
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 2007
posted January 13, 2005 01:12 PM  
In 2001 we went from an older Sardeson car one year in which we had a few top 10s and ended the year around 15th in points, to a new dirtworks and won 2 races several top 5 and finished 5th in overall points. Same track, same engine, SAME DRIVER. So you cant tell me a car doesnt matter.

NJantz
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 755
posted January 13, 2005 02:24 PM  
Alright SuperDave I'll touch upon your questions and some points you made.

You mentioned that rules are for limiting spending and long term costs and for equalizing competition. None of us racers wants to spend any more money than we have to. I've hardly seen a sanctioning body yet that looked at it from a long term approach. If that was the case, quickchanges would be in and 9"'s would be out in the world of modified racing. I've proven that to you on another forum whether you liked it or not. I'll bet most modified racers that have been in this for at least 3 years own at least 2 sets of 9" gears. If you don't believe me, I'll conduct a poll.

And when it comes to the stupid stud girdle. Geeze, that's a part that is a one time cost of 100 that was designed to add strength to the valve train. If you think the average rpm a modified motor turns will drop any without one, you don't have a clue about racers and competition. All you and IMCA did was decrease reliability and now you've made my stud girdle obsolete and wasted my money. The majority of tracks won't tech for this anyways. Except I'm sure you will.

The roller cams are still out there, just because you created a rule doesn't mean it fixes things. I know of 3 roller motors that ran IMCA at Greenville Texas this past season. Never once got caught.

How many years did racers ***** about the ridiculous cost of sliders and how we wanted coilovers because we could save some money? You changed your tune didn't you Super Dave. I love hearing: if you want coilovers then go buy a late model!

You ask how to sell a new sanction to promoters. The same way Xtreme, WoO, USMTS, or whoever does it when they waltz in the door. When they sell themselves don't they guarantee close racing and that they'll bring a good car count?

I'm one of those cost conscious racers you talk about. Except perhaps I'm a little more forward thinking than some. I know which rules save me money and which ones cost me money. The guys with less money move on no matter what. I'm one of them, I did it this summer. I blew up my 377, barely had enough to keep up with them. Had to put me a little 9.5to1 355 in the car. Guess what, that thing didn't have enough power to hang, so we packed up our **** and went to a track where the motor wasn't as big of an issue. And heaven forbid it was all IMCA sanctioned. Oh yeah go ahead and tell me I sucked as a driver and didn't set the car up. please. Flat got outran down the straightaway. So how does IMCA guarantee that I have an equal opportunity to win? There, I just poked a hole in your idiotic theory.

You wonder why racers get mad when you want to disallow something. Its because they've already spent hard earned money for it. DUHH!

I'm all about a level playing field, but it doesn't exist in racing no matter what level. Look at nascar and how similar those cars are to each other, and the cream still rises to the top no matter what the France family monopoly tries to do.

Parts left out cost nothing and don't break, yeah thats true but why did they ever allow a right rear beadlock?

You say that cars that are equal sell tickets. They probably do, but cars that are equal also don't pass. The same people win no matter what Dave.

Let me tell you my opinion on IMCA. Take it or leave it, I done left it.

1. The claim barely works. Only happens 2pct of the time. That means 98pct. of the time it doesn't happen. If you showed up to work 2pct. of the time would you consider that working or not? People aren't that scared of it. The people that got the cash to build the big hogs, got the cash to loose them also.

2. There is no "ceiling" when it comes to building an imca modified motor. It's all artificial. So what no roller cam. Spend that money on head work, light weight parts, and high dollar springs, lightweight valves and Shubek lifters. Believe me, we tried to succeed doing it the cheap way. It's not enough to carry the day for you.

The demise of IMCA modified racing has already started. When was the last time Brett Root surveyed his members asking them for any advice? But he sure can make decisions on whats best without asking his members. Proof that Brett knows the claim isnt working is the increase in the engine rules that we are seeing. They used to rely on it to police the engines and has now seen that it doesn't work that way anymore. About every month I read that damm IMCA newspaper I about puke at the attitude IMCA has about how their **** don't stink. It's about like WalMART. Go pat yourself on your back all you want, the only reason you are everywhere and the biggest sanction there is is because you don't have any competition.

[This message has been edited by NJantz (edited January 13, 2005).]

superdave
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 280
posted January 13, 2005 04:19 PM  
[QUOTE]Originally posted by NJantz:
You mentioned that rules are for limiting spending and long term costs and for equalizing competition. None of us racers wants to spend any more money than we have to. I've hardly seen a sanctioning body yet that looked at it from a long term approach. If that was the case, quickchanges would be in and 9"'s would be out in the world of modified racing. A long time friend raced many years in IMCA with a 427 and 9 inch rear. No floater. You don't need one to win a race. I think IMCA is about racing your home track or tracks weekly, not touring with 15 gear sets to ensure your engine runs max RPM every time it's on the track.

And when it comes to the stupid stud girdle. Geeze, that's a part that is a one time cost of 100 that was designed to add strength to the valve train....All you and IMCA did was decrease reliability and now you've made my stud girdle obsolete and wasted my money. If you run a less radical profile then it won't be a problem. We have 360 mods here that run stock rockers and no stud girdle. There's a winner every week. People can still cheat the roller cam rule with non-roller stuff but without something to stabilize the rest of the valvetrain it won't work.

The majority of tracks won't tech for this anyways. Except I'm sure you will.You got that right. It's the right thing to do and the racers expect it. Few DQ's anymore becuase they know what the limits are and don't bring that junk to the track. We owe it to them to do it right.

The roller cams are still out there, just because you created a rule doesn't mean it fixes things. I know of 3 roller motors that ran IMCA at Greenville Texas this past season. Never once got caught.You can't win them all. You can still claim or protest. Wyy let someone take home your money when you know they are illegal?

How many years did racers ***** about the ridiculous cost of sliders and how we wanted coilovers because we could save some money? You changed your tune didn't you Super Dave. I love hearing: if you want coilovers then go buy a late model!Things change. Not because we want to necessarily but because the times and situations have changed. Not by the rule makers but by the racers and manufacturers You wanted coil overs, you got them. Not soon enough to suit enyone but hasty decisions never end up very good. Who knew they would be so sophisticated and expensive by now. If you knew how come you were'nt selling them 10 years ago.

You ask how to sell a new sanction to promoters. The same way Xtreme, WoO, USMTS, or whoever does it when they waltz in the door. When they sell themselves don't they guarantee close racing and that they'll bring a good car count? Not really. What they garuantee is something you don't see every week at your local track. We used to see late models every week but they got hi-tech and expensive. If we don't learn from our mistakes then mods will be right out the door with them.

I'm one of those cost conscious racers you talk about. Except perhaps I'm a little more forward thinking than some. I know which rules save me money and which ones cost me money. The guys with less money move on no matter what. I'm one of them, I did it this summer. I blew up my 377, barely had enough to keep up with them. Had to put me a little 9.5to1 355 in the car. Guess what, that thing didn't have enough power to hang, so we packed up our **** and went to a track where the motor wasn't as big of an issue. And heaven forbid it was all IMCA sanctioned. Oh yeah go ahead and tell me I sucked as a driver and didn't set the car up. please. Flat got outran down the straightaway. So how does IMCA guarantee that I have an equal opportunity to win? There, I just poked a hole in your idiotic theory. Claim them. That's exactly what it's for. Maybe the rocket motored cars would go elsewhere and you would have stayed or you would have had a good bullet in your car.

You wonder why racers get mad when you want to disallow something. Its because they've already spent hard earned money for it. DUHH!This isn't an IMCA issue it's happened since the begining of racing. Racers bring the stuff to the track and rule writers write it out of the rules next season. Worse than this is having to buy things to keep up because your rule writers didn't make it illegal.

I'm all about a level playing field, but it doesn't exist in racing no matter what level. Look at nascar and how similar those cars are to each other, and the cream still rises to the top no matter what the France family monopoly tries to do. I try hard to preface level and equal with the word "more". All a racer needs is a chance and he'll keep racing. If he doesn't have a chance he'll quit.

Parts left out cost nothing and don't break, yeah thats true but why did they ever allow a right rear beadlock?Got me, I wouldn't have.

You say that cars that are equal sell tickets. They probably do, but cars that are equal also don't pass. The same people win no matter what Dave. Again, all a racer wants is a chance. Lots of guys race to race as long as it's fun. You are probably winning his money. You need him to pay the purse and he's happy to, if he has a chance. Getting hammered in the rear while getting lapped weekly really kills the enthusiasm.

Let me tell you my opinion on IMCA. Take it or leave it, I done left it.

1. The claim barely works. Only happens 2pct of the time. That means 98pct. of the time it doesn't happen. If you showed up to work 2pct. of the time would you consider that working or not? People aren't that scared of it. The people that got the cash to build the big hogs, got the cash to loose them also.I don't disagree completely but it's only one rule of many. But, it's the one you control and as long as you race the claim class a certain amount of responsibility is on your back to help police the class. Either the big hogs will go away or everyone will have one and either way the races will be better.

2. There is no "ceiling" when it comes to building an imca modified motor. It's all artificial. So what no roller cam. Spend that money on head work, light weight parts, and high dollar springs, lightweight valves and Shubek lifters. Believe me, we tried to succeed doing it the cheap way. It's not enough to carry the day for you. The cheap-er way works if everyone is doing it the cheaper way. Trying to control costs is obviously quite a chore and no one will be 100% successful. Perception is the biggest problem in racing. The success of the IMCA modified is attractive to the point it's the premiere class at many tracks when I don't think it was ever supposed to be. It wasn't for a long time.

The demise of IMCA modified racing has already started. When was the last time Brett Root surveyed his members asking them for any advice? But he sure can make decisions on whats best without asking his members....Go pat yourself on your back all you want, the only reason you are everywhere and the biggest sanction there is is because you don't have any competition. I don't think IMCA can ignore the racers if they wanted to. Since when do they keep everything to them selves. The reality is IMCA sees things at hundreds of tracks and not just local or regional tracks. If what they're doing doesn't work then they'll have to get jobs somewhere. If there are so many other great ideas for sanctions how come none has really come up with one and put their own money and livelyhood on the line for it. UMP is about the biggest competition but you can look at almost any UMP/IMCA post and one of the most often posted comments is how much more expensive UMP is over IMCA. It's all relative. UMP is expensive compared to IMCA but IMCA is expensive compared to b-mods, etc.


I'm sure my posts come off as I don't care or like the racers when in fact it's the opposite. I work hard at my track and a few others every now and then to give the racers every chance to win fair and square. I give the benefit of the doubt more often than not to the racer. If they all go away then I'm out of a job and I don't like ball and stick sports. It's normal for racers to be all about their own success and not worry about anyone else like the promoter or the other racers. That's why sanctions and tracks worry and make changes to keep people racing. But you should at least shoulder some of the blame for the expensive parts being bought and put on these race cars. I see these high dollar trick of the month stuff flying out of the speed shops and then some guy wins a ton of races on a home built leaf car and you have to wonder if all this stuff is even necessary. Money spent on parts could be spent on pit passes and gas and you know what else. Your assumptions that no one cares or does anything right is incorrect. History has shown that far too many promoters aren't very good at staying in business. 3 years is the average cycle I think. Sanctioning bodies help promoters and racers and being on the fence like that means you have to compromise both ways. I don't want to go back to the old days of being locked down to one track with a one of a kind car and hating it. Now you go elsewhere because an IMCA car is legal almost anwhere they run mods. Can you hate them for that?

Sincerely, good luck,
Superdave

Alltel
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 180
posted January 13, 2005 05:07 PM  
I didn't start this to argue about IMCA. I just wanted the rules clarified for me.

But, being stubborn, I have to say something.

1. I have yet to see the claim work. If you claim someone, then you might as well quit racing, because it won't be fun anymore. I've seen guys taken out week after week for claiming, and I've seen guys completely shunned because they claimed. I like talking to fellow racers. Claim someone and that is over. I was happy when I saw people start claiming at our home track, that was until it shut down a few months later. I don't know how many cars packed up and left when it started.

2. I have seen very few races that were equal in the past 14 years. I've been racing for 7 years, and except for the first time I hit the track, I've never felt like I've had a chance to win. Maybe it's different in other places, but not around here. Racing doesn't start for 3 more months, but I can tell you who will win 70% of the features opening night.

3. Teching is a joke. Once again it may be done at some places, but not around here. Brett Root has walked through the pits and seen that there was absolutely no tech and like every other person with a say he just ignored it.

4. Show me a home built leaf car that wins. I've never seen one. At least not without a $10,000 motor.

I run a home built car, with a home built motor and transmission, heck, theres not a lot on my car that I didn't build. I didn't do it because I wanted to. I did it because I had to in order to keep racing. Do I have a chance to win? NO!!! But by God I'm going to keep trying. It just upsets me when IMCA changes the rules that now requires me to cut up a perfectly good car.

Guys are going to keep building huge motors and keep winning with them until they get DQ'ed or claimed and then they will just quit, but there will be 10 more to take their place.

Xtreme12x
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 874
posted January 13, 2005 05:42 PM  
Superdave
we all know what you want... good racing for your fans but what you have to realize without cars there are no fans. I took a peek at your track site and it looks like a typical IMCA track.
The biggest gripe with the claim is not that there shouldn't be one, but justify where you can build a motor for $425? You can't. Claiming back is not an option, its called chicken schit. My B-Mod motor will have more in machine work then what you'd get back from the claim. How many claims have you had at your track in the past year?

Would you be in favor of a Compression limit on the IMCA mods, as well as a spec Intake and a certain number of spec heads? Want to even the playing feild, don't take away reliablity parts, i run stud girdles on my 9-1 any chance given. The guy that does all his own motor work, spends a good 2000 on a decen motor and then goes out and simply out drives someone and gets claimed... how do you think he feels, answer me that question. Now he is stuck with 400 and a sore a$$ hole from getting it up there being claimed. Now if the claim was $650 and an exchange... then you might actually SEE an increase in claims, the claimer would get what he wanted and the claim-ee would get a motor to work with a 650 to put back into it. Now there are the group of guys that will run big motors reguardless. You can buy them all day for 425 and they'll come back with the same motor they had last week. If you want a true class, try these motor rules for size

410 cube limit (no more 421's and so on)
Give em a stroke limit, 3.875 stroke MAX
11-1 Compression limit
Victor JR Intake
List a set of aftermarket and GM heads that you can run. Allow porting, polishing, whatever. 2.05/1.6 valves ONLY
Solid cams, No gear drive's allowed
I beam rods only (this WILL keep rpm's down)
No lightweight cranks, forged ok

Only problem for IMCA is with rules, they can't enforce them. Same song Superdave, its getting old. That is what separates IMCA from the Outlaws, not only money but talent. There is a TON of talent in IMCA but they are stuck with the IMCA tag. If Keith was still around i think things would be way different.

NJantz
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 755
posted January 13, 2005 06:30 PM  
Superdave, thanks for replying, I got after you pretty good and you held up just fine.
I don't always agree with what you have to say, but I do value your opinion.

I guess this just all boils down to the evolution of racing. Look how far modified suspensions have developed since they first started. No longer are those hockey pucks the limiting factor. As much as I hate to admit and I'm guilty of it, but the 4bar/zlink with a shorty bar didn't help contain motor cost. All it did was pave the way for more horsepower. But its the best thing since sliced bread lol


stockcar5
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 578
posted January 13, 2005 06:33 PM  
makes you wonder why imca has lost so many tracks the last 5 years or so? i predict usra will take over soon here in the upper midwest.

------------------
www.geocities.com/dirtstockcar5

m33mcg
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 96
posted January 13, 2005 06:58 PM  
Superdave, I only posed my question about starting our own sanctioning body was to get feedback. I have been playing with this idea for a while now. I don't want to waste my time and money starting something that people/racers would not be interested in.

To answer the question about the fans, they don't realy care about what sanctioning body is out there racing. They just want to see good, clean competitive racing and be able to cheer for their favorite drivers. As long as your rules are solid and enforced the cars will show up (build it and they will come).

As far as the promoters go, all they're really thinking is "show me the money," and you do this with a good car count. IMCA is losing tracks, why? Car count. Why are they losing cars? Their rules. Where do you think IMCA will be in the next five years if they do not change?

The key is making rules that work. To do this rules should be discussed by those who are menbers and then voted on by them
(this forum or something like it would make a perfict media tool).

To the rest of the readers, I ordered a copy of the IMCA modified rules today after reading superdaves replay. I would be more than happy to make up a mock set of rules for modifieds and post then later, if it would be of interest to everyone.
I will start a new topic and take a poll.

Mike

sanctioning

Mod57
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 64
posted January 13, 2005 07:14 PM  
Njantz

When was the last time Brett Root surveyed his members asking them for any advice? But he sure can make decisions on whats best without asking his members....Go pat yourself on your back all you want, the only reason you are everywhere and the biggest sanction there is is because you don't have any competition.

superdave

I don't think IMCA can ignore the racers if they wanted to. Since when do they keep everything to themselves? The reality is IMCA sees things at hundreds of tracks and not just local or regional tracks. If what they're doing doesn't work then they'll have to get jobs somewhere. If there are so many other great ideas for sanctions how come none has really come up with one and put their own money and livelyhood on the line for it. UMP is about the biggest competition but you can look at almost any UMP/IMCA post and one of the most often posted comments is how much more expensive UMP is over IMCA. It's all relative. UMP is expensive compared to IMCA but IMCA is expensive compared to b-mods, etc.

Alltel

It just upsets me when IMCA changes the rules that now require me to cut up a perfectly good car.

I agree with Njantz and Alltel, the almighty rule makers donít have the consideration to consult their members. Example the 19Ē minimum pan hard rule came to light when they released the rules in November. We had no heads up this rule was coming - the rule gods deemed it so and we have to deal with it. To heck with those who donít wait till the last minute to build, or order new cars for next season. I know for certain Alltel you arenít the only one who was blind-sided and now have to cut apart their new car. They could have at least waited till 2006 to enforce this badly needed rule, what a joke. I personally wish IMCA would quit trying to make the Mods a sissy class with their annual rule changes. If a person feels the class is too expensive or too fast, why not run a Sport Mod. Heck that class is plum chucked full of money saving rules for the budget racer. My question is if this is what everyone wants why arenít more tracks and racers buying into it? Could it be too many; bars must be this long, springs must be located here, only this shock, spec this and spec that, kind of rules? Like superdave statedÖ ďIf what they're doing doesn't work then they'll have to get jobs somewhere.Ē Boy I hope IMCAís rule creators didnít have to feed themselves off the success of this class the past few years.

superdave
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 280
posted January 13, 2005 07:28 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by Xtreme12x:

Superdave
we all know what you want... good racing for your fans but what you have to realize without cars there are no fans.
Our average for mods weekly is 38.5 cars. We have cars and so do so most tracks. A good 15 car feature is better than a long night with c, b and a features. We had 16 winners in 20 nights two years ago.

The biggest gripe with the claim is not that there shouldn't be one, but justify where you can build a motor for $425? You can't. Claiming back is not an option, its called chicken schit. My B-Mod motor will have more in machine work then what you'd get back from the claim. How many claims have you had at your track in the past year? The claim was never intended and never meant to be the cost of the engine. It's not retail purchase. It's the racers opportunity to police the engines in the class. It's the message that says you're outside the limits and we can see it. It's cruel and misused at times but someone said once that a claim is better than ten black flags. People will stuff another car into the concrete wall but we don't take off the bumpers do we. You have to have a better idea and you have to prove i tbefore the claim goes away. The hate from the claim is worse because people are spending more than ever. We have 2-4 claims a year probably. Hopefully tech helps with that. You have to have a few to set the limit. A great quote came from the previous track champ a couple years ago when the first claim of the new year happened. He looked at me and said "Well, the price of engines justwent down a couple thousand bucks. Everyone will have different ones next week."

Would you be in favor of a Compression limit on the IMCA mods, as well as a spec Intake and a certain number of spec heads? I would be for spec heads and intake with limited valvetrain. I would be for a crate motor too. I would tech all night if we had to but it's no feasable. Taking away the claim is taking away the last thing you control.

Now if the claim was $650 and an exchange... then you might actually SEE an increase in claims, the claimer would get what he wanted and the claim-ee would get a motor to work with a 650 to put back into it. It's already been proven that people won't swap. Claiming is gamble for the claimer not knowing what they are getting. You know that guy that just won't change much on his car because he's more worried about losing his mediocre setup than making it better? He also won't give up his engine in a gamble. You can find it all over the ineternet how tracks and sanctions with swaps never have claims.

410 cube limit (no more 421's and so on)---You need a $1000cubic inch checker
Give em a stroke limit, 3.875 stroke MAX---Who's pulling heads to check stroke?
11-1 Compression limit---You need a $3000 whistler compression checker
Victor JR Intake
List a set of aftermarket and GM heads that you can run. Allow porting, polishing, whatever. 2.05/1.6 valves ONLY--Porting polishing etc costs too much. Does a mod need 2.05 valves? Who's pulling heads and removing valves to check size?
Solid cams, No gear drive's allowed
I beam rods only (this WILL keep rpm's down)--Whose pulling pans to look at rods? Breaking a rocker, pushrod or rocker stud is cheaper and easier to fix.
No lightweight cranks, forged ok-- Who's pulling cranks to weight them. How much is lightweight?

What time will it be when the tech is done and the drivers get paid and can go home? We have 5 classes. How much tech can get done before the next feature ends? If that's your version of a mod motor then your idea of an IMCA mod is more than IMCA's I think. Not picking on you but surely you can see the promoters dilema here trying to enforce these rules. Sealed crate motors are pretty proven nowadays but that takes away choices and people wre uncomfortable with sometimes.

Only problem for IMCA is with rules, they can't enforce them. Same song Superdave, its getting old. That is what separates IMCA from the Outlaws, not only money but talent. There is a TON of talent in IMCA but they are stuck with the IMCA tag. If Keith was still around i think things would be way different. At least you realize that outlaw mods cost more than IMCA.

Good luck,
Superdave

superdave
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 280
posted January 13, 2005 07:45 PM  
[QUOTE]Originally posted by m33mcg:
Superdave, I only posed my question about starting our own sanctioning body was to get feedback. I have been playing with this idea for a while now. I don't want to waste my time and money starting something that people/racers would not be interested in. I belonged to a racers organization that leased and promoted a track. The fighting at meetings and voting and you name it was a mess. Hard to vote with a guy that turned your car over last week.

To answer the question about the fans, they don't realy care about what sanctioning body is out there racing. They just want to see good, clean competitive racing and be able to cheer for their favorite drivers. As long as your rules are solid and enforced the cars will show up (build it and they will come).You underestimate what sanctioning means to fans. When you say IMCA to fans they know exactly what kind of cars they will see. If you say WOO or Extreme it's the same thing.

As far as the promoters go, all they're really thinking is "show me the money," and you do this with a good car count. IMCA is losing tracks, why? Car count. Why are they losing cars? Their rules. Where do you think IMCA will be in the next five years if they do not change?Some areas lose tracks because racers want to make the IMCA modified more than it is. Pumping it up to be what late models used to be. It's not. It's amatuer Saturday night racing for amatuers. As far as total car count and tracks I think they are gaining them plenty of other places. Places like California and New York where the lowest entry level classes can be really expensive. Those areas have been through the cost cycle and are coming back around to cheaper racing.

The key is making rules that work. To do this rules should be discussed by those who are menbers and then voted on by them
(this forum or something like it would make a perfict media tool).
IMCA reads the forums and talks to members every day. People call there evry day and they visit tracks coast to coast. The way to get your point across is calmly and inteligently, not in a fit of screaming. Voting wouldbe a nightmare. Been there, done that. Even the people on this forum can't agree at what level the modified fits in the racing food chain. One wants Hobby motors and the other wants Late Model engines.

the rest of the readers, I ordered a copy of the IMCA modified rules today after reading superdaves replay. I would be more than happy to make up a mock set of rules for modifieds and post then later, if it would be of interest to everyone.
I will start a new topic and take a poll.
Don't post the rules. They are copywrite protected. They were on this forum once before and they got yanked off I think. It's a law and you will just be making trouble for the forum owner. IMCA will send you a single sheet of class rules for free but not a book. This is good forum for tech and that's mostly why I come here. WHOWON is for drama anymore and I try to post my windy debates there.

Good luck,
Superdave


Xtreme12x
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 874
posted January 13, 2005 08:47 PM  
Dave...
Right there it shows that you do not want to do tech... No, nobody wants to spend all night in tech but how long does it take to pull a pan and peek up in there? 5-15 minutes...
Heads can be removed within 10 minutes..
To say porting and polishing costs too much???? YOUR WRONG... I can do it for free, its not a science, all it takes is a die grinder and a common knowledge of how an engine works.

I guess you've just got all the answers for everyone when its the same song and dance every post you make. I've got a question for you, have you ever raced in your life?

mod70
unregistered Total posts: 874
posted January 13, 2005 10:46 PM           send a private message to Xtreme12x   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/QuoteBBBBBB
Alright, I'm going to throw my two cents into the ring.

Why do people come to watch a race? Hummmm......
1. Fast cars
2. Lots of passing
3. Wrecks

1 - Fans couldn't care less how much we have to spend to make these cars haul a**, they just want them to go as fast as possible. I see the lack of interest in the hobby stocks from the fans. They are fun for the guys racing them, and I support them as a way to allow more people to have a chance to try their hand at racing. You will never, however, sell out a track by having slow race cars. This is NOT a sport (or more specificaly class) to get into and start complaining about how much it costs. Take it from a guy who had to miss an entire season last year because of a lack of money. I am a single guy with one income and basicaly no sponsors, but I will not get out of my mod for anything. I chose to start in a mod because I wanted to get into a real race car. I could have started in a less expensive (and slower) class, but I will bear the expense to follow my dream of truly racing. If I have to miss some races because of the expense, than so be it, but just like the people who fill the stands (and when it comes down to it, that is why we can race. Not because of any scantioning body but because of bodies in the stands!) I want the fastest car too.

2 - Passing. If the cars are restricted to being cookie cutter cars, there will be no passing. If engines are restricted to the point where they are within a few HP of each other and the suspentions restricted to the point of getting no traction, then there will be little to no passing. What good is it to have 24 cars that run within 1/2 a second of eachother? The most exciting races I have ever seen, as well as the most fun I have ever had, is when a car comes charging up through the feild. Once again you can't fill the stands with a feild of cars like that.

3 - As for fans wanting the wrecks, well there's no real suprise there. You don't watch a high wire act if you know there is no chance of someone falling.

Basicaly my point is this: There needs to be rules obvesouly (sp?), but simply restricting mods to iron blocks, heads, and natural asperation limits what is realisticaly possible, and forcing us to run on narrow, hard coumpound tires limits how much of that power can be put down. On most tracks you can't use 800HP even if you want to. I have a 600HP car that I can't even use all the power all the time. But like I said, I did not get into this class expecting it to be affordable, I got into it because it is so fast and so exciting. There are lower classes of mods if you're concerned about how much money you're spending. Nobody is forcing anyone to run these cars. But I beleive in the top class of the modified division, the people paying the bills (fans) demand the excitement that the big motor, fancy suspention cars provide, and damit, I WANT IT TOO! No, I have not won a feature yet (YET!), but I am not willing to sacrifice the performance aspects of these cars just because, boo hoo, it hasn't hapened yet. It just drives me to try harder. 70

ctfarm
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 206
posted January 14, 2005 06:06 AM  
If you want more exciting races,I think we should pay money and points for heats and line the features up by point average.This would put the fast cars on the back and we would have much more excitement and probably more different winners.When the fast cars start on the front every week it gets pretty boring.

superdave
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 280
posted January 14, 2005 09:35 AM  
In IMCA the high point average cars do start in the back every week. 10 or 12 are inverted depending on the number of heats.

mod70
unregistered Total posts: 280
posted January 14, 2005 10:01 AM           send a private message to superdave   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/QuoteBBBBBB
ctfarm - I would love to get money for the heat races, but it's not very realistic. At least there should be a "show up" pay if you run a heat, maybe even just enough to get your pit pass money back. After all, that is not where the track makes their money, it's at the front gate and in the concessions. But I understand that the track is not in the bussiness of paying out all their money, it's just not good bussiness, and just look at how many people complain about the pay out in the main. I don't think you're going to convince the owners to start shelling out more for the heats. But the idea of lining up by your points average in the main would negate runnung the heat races, wouldn't it? If you already know there is not a chance of starting up front than why try? Yes, if you paid something for running the heats you would run hard, but like I said, I just don't think that's feasable. At a track like Central Missouri Speedway there are nights where 60 or more mods show up. How much money would it take to pay all of them off. (However they do pay for running the B fearure, as do most tracks around here.)

oldmanracing
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 5
posted January 14, 2005 10:18 AM  
I just found this site this week and i am not one to voice an opinion often but this one got me started. I'm from sw MO we do not have any IMCA tracks anywhere close but have to run their rules. We don't get any point fund money from IMCA but we do pay into it from, tires, stickers on wheels, etc. I can't tell you the last time there was a motor claim or protest of any kind. Tech around here amounts to a tire check or maybe wheel base measurement. most tracks pay $400-450 to win 10th and back $50. My motors cost 7-10K apeice. Here's my point how would you like to pay an extra 5-10-15 dollars each time you buy IMCA stamped tires or wheels or whatever and not be able to get any of it back? You guys whine about this panhard bar rule when if you were any kind of chassis person you could work aroud that. I've been saying for years we need coil overs to lower cost this is a good move!!!! Next move IMCA needs to make is crate motors that will save EVERYBODY money.... Why not get other tire manufactures involved?? Same spec for everybody 60 durometer, 83" Competetion is good for the sport (thats why we're in it) lets let everybody compete and reduce the cost of racing. I'm on the outside looking in but it does have an affect on my bottom line also. Just my 2 cents worth..............


dirtbuster
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 2007
posted January 14, 2005 10:24 AM  
I like the tire idea. And if it was built to the same specs, same durometer, size etc, then people would at least have a choice between 2 or 3 tires and that should help keep the cost down.

You guys complain about running for 400 to win. Our track is NASCAR sanctioned and we run for 325$. and we get aroudn 25 cars ea night. There might be some other tracks that pay a little better but we keep going back because I dont like IMCA and would rather race for less money w/ NASCAR than an extra 100 or so and have to deal W/ IMCA. Plus the competition is so tough that any given night there are about 15 guys that could win. I would have to go back and look but I would venture to say that out of 25 nights we prob had close to 20 different winners. And on nights wehn the USMTS rolls into town you can bet 5 or more of those will make the A against the best drivers in the midwest. So if we went to another track and started doing well or even winning a lot fo races it wouldnt mean near as much as just finishing top 5 consistently at our home track. So dont tell me you need IMCA to have good, close races. ITs the drivers/cars that make the races good not the rules.

[This message has been edited by dirtbuster (edited January 14, 2005).]

superdave
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 280
posted January 14, 2005 11:23 AM  
quote:
Originally posted by Xtreme12x:
Dave...
Right there it shows that you do not want to do tech... No, nobody wants to spend all night in tech but how long does it take to pull a pan and peek up in there? 5-15 minutes...
Heads can be removed within 10 minutes..
To say porting and polishing costs too much???? YOUR WRONG... I can do it for free, its not a science, all it takes is a die grinder and a common knowledge of how an engine works.

I guess you've just got all the answers for everyone when its the same song and dance every post you make. I've got a question for you, have you ever raced in your life?


You're reading to much into what I said. It makes no difference what the racer has to pull off for tech because they pull it off, I don't. But setting up a long stroke dial indicator to measure stroke or removing a valve from a cylinder head and measuring it with a micrometer takes time. The problem is few racers want to disasemble their engine in the infield when the next class is busy making a dust tornado all around you. Anyone on this forum willing to disassemble your engine in the pits 4 or 5 times a season speak up now and let me know. Head and intake and oil pan gaskets along with new oil and antifreeze cost money too. The word lightweight doesn't set any real limit. My idea of lightweight and the tech guy at the track down the road are proably very different.

I doubt anyone's home porting will match the HP gains of a good CNC machine and professional porter. Racers will by the CNC stuff just like they by so many things now. Kind of a sign of the times, work too many hours to be real creative in the shop unless it 2AM. People have families and lives and you name it to spend time with too.


Have I ever raced? Of course. Everyone wants to be a driver first. I raced 5 years in a local street stock class. 2nd in points the last season I raced but I was top ten every year I raced. I have built and sold better than 20 race cars from my shop and do more free stuff for racers than anyone I know. I built cars for my buddy Steve and crewed for him (he knew nothing about cars)while he won 4 consecutive season championships. Vo-tech for auto mechanics and ASE Master cerified. I'm not dumb. I'm a Broadband Communications Engineer.

I just want everyone to realize the pressure of trying to make decisions that impact members and non-members on a nationwide scale. Everyone can complain because it's easy. Few can really get it even close to right.

Good luck,
Superdave

[This message has been edited by superdave (edited January 14, 2005).]

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