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Author Topic:   IMCA Rules
Racer X
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 256
posted January 14, 2005 05:39 PM  
Hey ctfarm, just think if lcs had used the same method for line ups back when we ran pro stock as they do now. No telling how many features we could have won starting up front instead of dead last.When you start most of those guys at the back they never finished many races(you know which ones I'm talking about) I like the Devils bowl line up method it's kind of like Imca the fast cars start about mid pack on back and the slow cars get to start in the front if they finish good enough in the heat. (at least it use to be that way)As far as heat race pay Devils Bowl used to pay well for the heats don't know if they still do or not.

Xtreme12x
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 874
posted January 14, 2005 06:22 PM  
Wow your smart
YA RIGHT...
How many ENGINES have you sold from a claim??

race 66
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 26
posted January 14, 2005 06:24 PM  
I'm from sw mo also and I agree with most of what old man says, except for crate motors. I've raced almost thirty years without much sponsor help and I can still build a decent mod motor cheaper than a crate motor. What kills it for me is all the classes the tracks run around here.They need to cut some classes and pay more money. Just dreaming!

21racer
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 56
posted January 14, 2005 10:11 PM  
i quit running imca last year. i have said in the past i would never run nonsantioned tracks. in the last few years imca license fees have went up, more rules added telling me what parts i have to put on my car i.e. thing with there name on them. they are getting rich from companies making these products while the racer gets nothing but more parts to buy. no more run what you can afford or junkyard parts they must have the imca stamp on them. the only people who get anything back from imca is the national champions . the little guy racing his home track one night a week even if he wins the track chamionship only gets a few hundred dollars back from imca. that is just my 2cents worth and i am sure there are others who fell the same

superdave
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 280
posted January 14, 2005 10:29 PM  
I believe I saw Brett Root print on another forum that on $12,000 new mod roller IMCA makes about $28 from the IMCA stickered parts. Wheels, tires and what else is there? Your championship money is a direct result of how much your track pays and how many cars they have.

Good luck,
Superdave

orange2mod
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 113
posted January 15, 2005 08:02 AM  
Bla bla bla

Xtreme12x
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 874
posted January 15, 2005 09:23 AM  
Superdave, do you really think that they would only make around $28 per new car? How do they make a living? Any time anyone buys a G-60 money goes into IMCA's Pocket. Have you ever tried running un sanctioned and running your own set of rules before?
You still have not answered my question have you ever been bought and had to sell a motor that you worked hard to put a good 2000 into in your own shop, saving your money since you have a family to support and now your starting to do decent and they assume its the motor? Have you ever had to break up fights because of the claim, have you had bad blood at your track because of the claim? We have sold over 26 motors and the MOST we put into any of them that we sold was around 1800, and I know of another team that puts around $1400 into an IMCA Stock Car motor, before there genius Carb rule, now they have to spend twice the time getting the flow right. Not saying racing is cheap but rules can take care of the claim. I am not in this to buy motors and sell motors I am in it to race. Come on up to IMCA territory and do some racing, then change your mind. If you run good REGUARDLESS of motor you get bought. A guy went on a hot streak at Marshalltown in 2001 in a bent up Dirtworks and a cheap motor, but everyone KNEW he had a big hog.

21racer
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 56
posted January 15, 2005 06:47 PM  
if you really think the only parts on a car that imca gets a kickback for is tires and wheels, your eyes are closed and your ears are full of mud. srings,shocks,rearends,transmissions, everything on the car is money in imcas pocket read there list of sponsors. how do you think new products get appoved for use like transmissions a couple of years ago the manufactures give big money to get there product approved

T/10
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 71
posted January 16, 2005 09:37 AM  
I will not run any icma tracks because of all the bull. The changes that are being made in my opinion, just let the guy that should have stayed in the stands in the middle of several good cars and drivers. This is an accident in abought 2 or less laps and have seen it several times at a track I raced at couple of years ago.My biggest question is who wants to see a slow race? The fans always remember that car that put on the biggest show, the one that had the 3 ft. wheely all the way around the track. That car is always the fastest, baddest, and wildest car on the track in there eyes even when he finished in the middle of the pack.That is what brings fans back to the races every weekend,not stupid rules that cost racers more money.They only line big brothers pockets more if not then why (correct me if I am wrong)do we have to run a coil over kit instead of just a regular coil over shock that we could buy (USED) from some late model driver? There are several questions like this I would like answered. I think we should all just show up with what we want to run and if only 3 cars are legal to run then so be it how many fans do you think will come back next week?

Xtreme12x
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 874
posted January 16, 2005 12:39 PM  
Once again Superdave can't answer me because he knows he is wrong...
The Big Hog Motor Guy in fact never had a Big Hog, he just was hooked up and was then targeted... Now he RARLEY will ever run IMCA

superdave
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 280
posted January 16, 2005 07:00 PM  
I worked an auction/vendors show this weekend so don't get your panties in a wad.

I have pulled some that were claimed. I have officiated many that were claimed. I have never sold an engine to claim. I have never had a baby either but I've witnessed it twice and I can tell you exactly how it happens. How many engines have you claimed?

The claim works because you are winning with $1800 engines. A guy in a another post listed $8000 as his engine price. If there was no claim your $1800 wouldn't buy a Dart block let alone a winning engine. The tracks and series without claim rules prove that the claim is necessary. What happens with no claim is worse than the claim. I'm not saying it's fun to get claimed but it's no fun getting beat or even trying to keep up with $8000+ engines weekly when you race for fun. I call it the necessary evil.

The speculation that parts get approved by buying your way in is just that, speculation. Sanctions stay in business by keeping racers racing. We've seen RPM's drop over 10% between last season and the season before. I talked to an engine builder this weekend. A national engine builder from Iowa. One of the biggest in fact and I asked what the racers are going to do without roller cams, shaft rockers and stud girdles. His reply was "What can you do? We'll turn less rpm". If you think IMCA is going to write rules to drive racers away on purpose you don't know enough about what a sanction does. They need you and they know it. They are responsible to promoters also and that means keeping racers racing.

Ok, just show up with whatever you want to run. Two or three track closings latter how far will you have to go to race and will they turn you down too?

Good luck,
Superdave

Xtreme12x
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 874
posted January 16, 2005 07:06 PM  
Superdave,
So if we are winning with $1800 Engines we should be punished by the claim? Imca making guys turn less RPM isn't going to run out high dollar motors.
How many engines have I claimed? None. I will never claim. It is Chicken Schit to claim someone. I race outlaw tracks for that fact. Want to keep costs down? Don't allow porting then. Make some stricter Rules.

stockcar5
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 578
posted January 16, 2005 07:22 PM  
i think IMCA and superdave put a little to much stock in engines and prices. 90% of the people on this board will tell you that you need driver ability and chassis setup long before you need an expensive motor. i have won at outlaw tracks with my claimer 355. i just didnt hafta worry about losing the only motor i had! its to bad imca cant do something along the lines of wissota and have a tight set of rules that get teched! i'd take a long night of teching over a long night of pulling a motor anyday!!

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www.geocities.com/dirtstockcar5

[This message has been edited by stockcar5 (edited January 16, 2005).]

superdave
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 280
posted January 16, 2005 07:38 PM  
In my personal opinion, a few engine rules will lower claims. If everyone knows that everyone else has a solid cam, stud rockers and limited RPM's they are less reasons to claim in my opinion.

How much would you have spent if you knew you would never be claimed?

And, it takes less than an hour complete a claim.

Good luck,
SUperdave

jammin
Dirt Administrator

Total posts: 6243
posted January 16, 2005 09:22 PM  
like i said before...to much stock in what is being spent. how much do you have in your wallet right now? why do i care? is it any of my business? no not really. who cares if joe blow spent 10k on his motor and mine is 3k if we both have about the same hp because of tight engine rules? i think imca and its tech officials just dont want to do the work to make the cometition fair and balanced.

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www.geocities.com/dirtstockcar5

dirtbuster
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 2007
posted January 17, 2005 12:04 PM  
I have often wondered about a carb rule. At our local track we used to be restricted to a 500cfm holley and it cut the power down a bunch. That doesnt mean guys were spending less though. I would think something as simple as a 390 4 barrel rule could do the same thing. That way it would bolt on to the current intakes and yet cut flow down considerably from what we have now.

Or do like our late models do. They have an open option then a limited option. The limited option is along the lines of 11:1 compression and unported bowtie heads, CID limit of 364 (OR in that range) but they get a 100# weight break and a larger spoiler. The track champion last 2 years has run the limited option. You could do the same thing with the mods. Give your limited option a weight break or spoiler or whatever to even things up. The only thing is you would have to be able to tech them which seems to be the biggest issue with any of the rule enforcements.

superdave
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 280
posted January 17, 2005 03:59 PM  
We tried the 350 two barrel for two years in our 360MODS. We did have some different winners but it was some boring stuff to watch. Cars were geared low to get off the corner but then they just coasted down the last half of the straight. Not sure why but it was boring.

We run four barrels now on flat top 360's. Unported production OEM heads and unported intakes. Stamped steel oem rockers, no stud girdles. 2 link or leaf. Vortec heads seem to be the hot ticket. Much better racing and more people interested. Sometimes too much restriction seems to be unappealing so you have to be careful what you limit. I poke around in the engine with a fiber scope as well as the clutch. So far so good. Kind of like our little test class.

Good luck,
Superdave

jammin
Dirt Administrator

Total posts: 6243
posted January 18, 2005 06:05 AM  
Superdave

I could see wehre a 350 2 barrel would choke it off pretty good. Prob too much. Thats why i thought going with a 390 would cut them back a little but not completely shut them down. A 350 2 barrel is prob cutting airflow down to 20% of what mods have now. A 390 4 barrel would only cut it to about 60%.(Rough estimates keep in mind).

You talk about how boring it was to slow the cars down and yet that is what you say IMCA has to do is slow the fast cars down to make a better show. I agree with a previous poster that the crowd doesnt come to see the slow cars they come to see the fast ones. To see the car they heard put on a show last week. To see the top 12 battle it out. I know that sounds like I am putting down the back runners but i am not. we ran mid to back of the pack for several years. Gradually we stepped up our program to where we compete in a very, very tough top 10 weekly. We couldnt have just started in a mod at the front. It takes time to learn the car, setup, etc, not just being able to spend money.

superdave
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 280
posted January 18, 2005 12:58 PM  
Fast and slow are relative terms. You slow down the leaders sometimes but that doesn't mean they will be slow. You do it to make the competition closer. I was just sharing my experiance with the 350 on a mod. One of our 360mods (with four barrel) raced in the IMCA mods with a seasoned driver one night and finished fourth. Read our rules and you'll see that if that motor could finsh that high against 40 cars then things like roller cams, stud girdles, roller rockers and aftermarket heads and aftermarket transmissions are unnecessary to finish and maybe win.

Not everyone is going to be able to afford every class of racing. Affordable doesn't mean free. Cheaper and cheap are two differet things. Not everyone belongs in every class. I do know you need a fast enough show to keep fans coming back.

Is the IMCA mod larger and more expensive than anyone ever thought it would be? Sure it is but there are other factors that caused that also. The lose of weekly late models and Sprints left the IMCA mod as the top class at many tracks. Everyone wants to be the top dog in the top classand will do what it takes to get there. The cars were easier to build and when thousands are building and racing them you only get to see so many on X number of summer weekends when tracks are open. You can't disallow a part that doesn't exist yet. Someone builds it to the letter of the rule but gains a significant advantage. You don't change in the middle of the season. You investigate and document the effects of the part and then make changes if necessary.

One minute people complain the cars cost too much and the next you complain they backed the rules up a little. The coil over kit is an example of something that wasn't allowed before but now that the fancy sliders cost so much the kit makes sense. You may own sliders already but you also used them already. You can still use them if you want but the next 500 racers to move to mods don't have to buy them if they don't want to.

The opportunity to start and run a sanctioning organization with all the good ideas people can think up has always been there. A few sanctions have come and gone and a few linger but none very big. Maybe IMCA isnít as far off as the vocal minority would have us believe. You canít make everyone happy thatís for sure. I think the vocal minority would have everyone believe that IMCA is the evil of racing and they don't know what they are doing but the numbers don't lie. More tracks, more racers. Long time racers. Can a driver get better than weekly IMCA racing? Sure you can. But the leap dollar wise is long from IMCA to things like open late models and Sprints. Why donít people start a new sanction? Maybe because the existing one isnít that bad. You canít make everyone happy thatís for sure.

Iíve been following the Fastrak crate motor late models from the southeast lately and the racers seem pretty pleased with that series. The expensive race car look without the expensive race car engine seems to have generated plenty of sponsors and racers alike. People complain about crates but the simplicity of buying one engine and knowing you have what every other racer has, has to give you some confidence about your chances to win. I think IMCA should mix the non-claim crates in with the regular mods or sportmods and see if they keep up. Since you know the cheapest crate motor only makes 330 HP with a four barrel and headers it should fit right in with the 500 carb sportmods. Maybe the other crates could go in the regular mods. The other cartes seem expensive but the Fastrak guys are getting 2 seasons and more out of their motors. Cost is only part of the problem in racing. The other is parity and the perception of parity. I'd love to see the guy who swears motor means nothing and setup means everything race with motors identical to the rest of the field.

Good luck,
Superdave

[This message has been edited by superdave (edited January 18, 2005).]

zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1875
posted January 18, 2005 01:04 PM  
lets go to crate motors, i have heard of a few places that break open a "sealed" motor and stroke it or whatever else i want to do to it, then put it back togethere so it looks as if never touched.
that would make a super level playing field one or 2 cars with 150hp more than everybody else...
as far as saving money for new guys. LEGALIZE QC!!! and allow just plain threaded body shocks with small springs. then you could buy them from old late model guys.

dirtbuster
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 2007
posted January 18, 2005 01:23 PM  
I agree W/ zero. The one thing i think would save racers more than anythign else is the QC rearend. Make it steel tubes and stick with standard 9" ratios and the only thing you have done is basically given the racer a chance to buy 50-75$ gear sets instead of 500$ center sections. Does that mean everybody would have to run out and change rearends, NO. the QC robs more HP than a 9" so it could actually hurt a little. Does that mean all the rears and gears we have no are worthless,NO. sell them to stock cars.

Really what advantage is their to running 2 1/2" over 5" springs? now that you can run coil overs why not allow the smaller springs. That way if you have to buy a new spring you could buy the right size instead of having to buy a kit to convert you coil over kit to accept 5" springs??

And if you gotta buy a new shock why not buy a threded body and save the coil over kit. Doesnt mean everybody would run out and dump their 5" springs and old shocks to get new shocks and springs. But would make it easier on future purchases or new races like superdave said above.

And then you still have the stupid rules like the 19" panhard bar rule. That really saves a bunch of money doesnt it. 80$ jbar, vs. 20$ short bar.......

Istock66
unregistered Total posts: 2007
posted January 18, 2005 03:49 PM           send a private message to dirtbuster   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/QuoteBBBBBB
390 carbs start at 600 and top out at above 3000.00 be carefull what you wish for.

you can put a coil over kit on any steel shock, take a dull pupe cutter and put a groove or notch in your shocks you have now yourself.

the crate would be a hard one to mix in with a mods now there are no crates at 500-540 hp which would be easily attainable for a flat tappet cam, 13-1 355 with just decent heads on it and a 750 dp carb.

the crates will fall right in a IMCA stock car say 350 hp one, and probably the same one for the b mods since they are limited on compression. But the cars that dont go to the crate would still have to have a claim and the same rules as now.

I contacted IMCA and am willing to buy a crate for 2006 to run in my IMCA stock car as a test if they want.(theyve allready got one I was told) I have all 400s which I cant run in 06. a crate at 2900 is cheaper than 2-3 claimers that will get claimed (hopefully) or blow up.

Im all for a crate, though I dont know what it will cost to freshen. Because I can probably run one a season 15-25 nights at a cost of 3000 and sell it for 1500-2000, thus my engine costs for the year are low. And I didnt pull multiple motors or dissasemble any dirty ones, go to machine shops etc. Heck if I run it 2 years I could just throw it away, I got my moneys worth out of it!!!

race 66
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 26
posted January 18, 2005 05:28 PM  
Around here. when ever they went to small carbs it just cost more money.They've got a spec late model series here that has to run a 390 so they all bought the lightest rotating stuff and they have to turn them 8500. Explain how that saves any money.

dirtbuster
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 2007
posted January 18, 2005 05:53 PM  
When i was talking about smaller carbs i was meaning as a way to slow the cars down like superdave was talking. It was an alternative to rules like the no stud girdle, 19" panhard bar etc. Not necessarily to save any money.

Im sorry if that didnt come across.

LAWEST
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 30
posted January 24, 2005 03:14 PM  
I must say that the only person on this post with a view of the big picture is Superdave.

The IMCA modified must be tightly controlled to keep it affordable for racers and track operators.

Any racetrack or racing organization that lets the racers control it is doomed to failure. Racers will spend themselves out of racing even while they are whining for some new advantage.

"TRACTION IS THE ENEMY OF GOOD RACING!"

Elmo
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 79
posted January 28, 2005 09:02 AM  
Jeez, what a huge thread! Three things will answer many woes experienced by the IMCA racer: 1) Mandate an inspection plug on the oil pan. 2) Mandate an IMCA issue Restrictor plate. 3) Raise the minimum wieght of the car with driver to #2650.
I could prolly think of more. The racer is his own worst enemy causing rising costs. There seems to be 10 IMCA haters for every 1 in favor, but I would love for IMCA to return to Houston.

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