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Author Topic:   Right rear spring on top
4b
Dirt Newbie

Total posts: 1
posted November 02, 2004 06:25 PM  
anybody running right rear spring on top
housing on DW 4/zlink

dogwalker
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 65
posted November 03, 2004 03:55 PM  
Running a 4/Z with spring on top on right rear, but it aint no DW. What kind of info. were you looking for?


driver27
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 194
posted November 04, 2004 06:30 AM  
Id love to see a pic of exactly how you have the rr spring mounted on top of the rear.

thanks

rpm20
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 338
posted November 04, 2004 08:01 AM  
i am switching my dw 8 over this winter , i run a 4-z and will just put a clamped spring cup on the rear and then weld a threaded bung to the outside of the cage straight above the spring with a support tube.
i thought i might move my birdcage over to the right and then angle the top of the spring inward to the center of the car about 10 degrees to compensate for the rear end movement during rear steer and cornering.

that is my 2 cents, what do you think?

[This message has been edited by rpm20 (edited November 04, 2004).]

dirtbuster
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 2007
posted November 04, 2004 08:17 AM  
You do want to angle it in some because as the rearend moves left under roll you dont want the spring to go past center. Not sure on the degrees, best would be to mock it up and see how everything fits then run it thru travel and check it again. I'd reccomend keeping the spring as close to the wheel as possible and still get everything to fit. FYI we found on our DW9 (8 are prob the same) that originally had the spring on top that there were some geometry problems. In fact we couldnt get anythin more than a 200# 13" spring to fit because the upper rail is too low. It wouldnt physically fit between the rearend and the frame at ride height. WE had to go to 11" springs before we moved the spring out ot the birdcage which corrected several problems at once.

rpm20
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 338
posted November 04, 2004 08:41 AM  
so you tried the spring on top then ended up putting it on the birdcage?
on a slider??
in front of the bc or the rear?
or mounted right onto the birdcage somehow?

which worked best and what effects did you notice with both.?????
my car seems to not roll over very good with the slider on the swingarm and is tight going into the turn.

quote:
Originally posted by dirtbuster:
You do want to angle it in some because as the rearend moves left under roll you dont want the spring to go past center. Not sure on the degrees, best would be to mock it up and see how everything fits then run it thru travel and check it again. I'd reccomend keeping the spring as close to the wheel as possible and still get everything to fit. FYI we found on our DW9 (8 are prob the same) that originally had the spring on top that there were some geometry problems. In fact we couldnt get anythin more than a 200# 13" spring to fit because the upper rail is too low. It wouldnt physically fit between the rearend and the frame at ride height. WE had to go to 11" springs before we moved the spring out ot the birdcage which corrected several problems at once.


dirtbuster
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 2007
posted November 04, 2004 10:24 AM  
Yes we started with the spring on top like it came from DW but when we started changing springs we found the problems. Then the more we studied it, and studied other cars like skyrockets we found more geometry that needed changed. The skyrocket cars had the RR spring on top but it was mounted as far outboard as possible and still fit. Our DW-9 was a good 6" in from that. That is when we moved the srping to the front of the BC (we had to modify the A-1s) and remounted the jack bolt (no slider) allowing us to position everythign the way we wanted it, moving it out at the same time, and fixing some of the geometry as well. We ran it this way the rest of the season and it made a tremendous difference to us. The car was a lot more consistent, and seemed more stable to the driver. Now, that being said I think the spring on top will work, we just never went back to mess with. I would liek to try it sometime but never got to it.

rpm20
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 338
posted November 04, 2004 10:55 AM  
sounds pretty trick...
so then if you dont mind....tell me how the mount looks now on the bc.

was it a lot different than having a slider on the swingarm???

how does that effect the spring rate at the wheel?
how far in front of the bc is the spring and is it below the center of the rearend?

e mail me if you dont want to post it here.
ron.paulick@hydrite.com

quote:
Originally posted by dirtbuster:
Yes we started with the spring on top like it came from DW but when we started changing springs we found the problems. Then the more we studied it, and studied other cars like skyrockets we found more geometry that needed changed. The skyrocket cars had the RR spring on top but it was mounted as far outboard as possible and still fit. Our DW-9 was a good 6" in from that. That is when we moved the srping to the front of the BC (we had to modify the A-1s) and remounted the jack bolt (no slider) allowing us to position everythign the way we wanted it, moving it out at the same time, and fixing some of the geometry as well. We ran it this way the rest of the season and it made a tremendous difference to us. The car was a lot more consistent, and seemed more stable to the driver. Now, that being said I think the spring on top will work, we just never went back to mess with. I would liek to try it sometime but never got to it.


WPP
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 451
posted November 04, 2004 03:36 PM  
Dirtbuster when you moved the spring to the front was the birdcage still floating or lock out thanks

GRTWallbanger
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 196
posted November 04, 2004 04:28 PM  
How far in was your spring from the rr rotor when you said it was in to far?
I measured a Pierce car and it was about 12" so thats where I put mine? 12" From the rotor.

dirtracer14
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1261
posted November 04, 2004 07:40 PM  
I put mine out as far as i could on top...vary stable. I have a small brake mount and the cheap steel birdcage then the spring...maybe about 8" from the wheel. I had to make a new mout on the outside of the top rail but i like it there!

dirtbuster
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 2007
posted November 05, 2004 07:11 AM  
wpp,
still floated, it was a z link RR. We just welded on a spring cup support on the front of the BC. With very little angle in the z link bars it behaves much like the spring on top, as there is very little indexing. But more angle in the bars will index the BC more and rotate the bottom of the spring up, compressing it from both ends, just like having the LR behind on the BC. Just another tuning tool if you needed.

GRT,
I dont remember for sure what it measured. Again I'm not saying that it wouldnt work on top but we had problems getting srpings to fit as well. We were stiffeneing the spring to make up for the narrow spring base and thats when we found that with anyting more than about a 200# 13" spring we just couldnt make it fit. But besides being in a long ways it put the spring at a funny angle when the car was rolled over.


WPP
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 451
posted November 05, 2004 03:09 PM  
I have ran into that problem myself with dw mine was also mounted inside of the frame rail and i did change it to the outside but i still cannot move the rear spring far enough away like dirtbuster said 200 or more and the frame rail will hit the cup and what i can tell it could kick the spring out during body roll i have not went to the 11 inch spring yet but i may try dirtbuster deal. thanks

dirtbuster
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 2007
posted November 05, 2004 06:33 PM  
rpm20
i sent you an email. Let me know if you have trouble getting it. I attached a diagram with it as well.

WPP
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 451
posted November 06, 2004 06:13 AM  
Dirtbuster you should go to work at dworks and help them out i run a 4-link clamped up in front the car is too tight for me had the problem all year and i believe alot had to do with the rr spring 20pds lr was the most and even went to 75pds rr i may even three link the car over the winter this car has been terrible just inconstant one night be good and the next terrible have you had the same problem with yours i have been told to 3-link it and it would be better springs on top of the rear trobles would be over this is a 112 dw 8 what do you think thanks

rpm20
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 338
posted November 06, 2004 07:21 AM  
i will look for it, and thanks.
ron


quote:
Originally posted by dirtbuster:
rpm20
i sent you an email. Let me know if you have trouble getting it. I attached a diagram with it as well.


rpm20
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 338
posted November 06, 2004 07:28 AM  

my dw8 was the same way , very tight on the front and if you come into the corner too high then look out for the wall because the steering is ****.
i needed to adjust to coming in lower but also dicovered that the harder i got on the gas in the corner the better my car hooked up. we also went to 3/4" of static rear steer on gary clarks advice. that helped a lot too.
front end is still a bit tight but after the season i checked my front roll center as it came from dw and it was 20" to the pass side and 1" below ground.
i think that might be where the tight front comes from and have corrected it but have not raced it since.
check your front roll center and lets see what you find.
e mail me at ron.paulick@hydrite.com or at rpm20@earthlink.net and lets talk. maybe i can help you out. ron


quote:
Originally posted by WPP:
Dirtbuster you should go to work at dworks and help them out i run a 4-link clamped up in front the car is too tight for me had the problem all year and i believe alot had to do with the rr spring 20pds lr was the most and even went to 75pds rr i may even three link the car over the winter this car has been terrible just inconstant one night be good and the next terrible have you had the same problem with yours i have been told to 3-link it and it would be better springs on top of the rear trobles would be over this is a 112 dw 8 what do you think thanks


dirtbuster
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 2007
posted November 08, 2004 08:55 AM  
WPP,
What we foudn with the original DW setup is similar to what you are talking about. inconsistent and usually way too tight. It was a big guessing game,(more so than usual) either we'd end up way to tight or too loose.. there didnt seem to be a middle groudn. We played with springs and bite, trail RR etc. but in the end we came to the conclusion that the RR jsut wasnt working right.

I have noticed a lot of DW9 for sale lately and I think prob for the same reason, inconsistent especially compared to the DW8 and 2 links. DW had a good thing going i think they just came up a little short with their 4/z setup. On top of that they really dont have anybody to help with setups with the 4/z so you dont really get a lot of tech help, as compared to say a skyrocket, pierce, etc. Call about a 2 link and you get all kinds of help. We got a lot of help from guys running skyrockets, shyrock himself and mastersbilt before coming up with the setup we did.

I dont think there is anythign wrong iwth a 2 link, it will be more consistent, but you cant dial it in as close as a 4 lik in my opinion. But on the other hand its harder to get dialed out too. If I were going to go back to a 2 link I would prob try the shorter LR link 12-15" and long RR. I dont know about springs on top. I would think you would have the same problems with a 2 link that you would with a 4 link on the RR, unless you move the spring to a better position. On the LR i think the spring would be better in front of the housing to help get off the corner better.

WPP
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 451
posted November 08, 2004 10:00 AM  
I was thinking about the same way with the spring on top deal with the 2-link and 4-link zlink that it would not matter you would have a problem with the right rear spring i did go to the shop sunday and pull my spring off the top of the rear and put my slider back on the right rear hooked to the bird cage with a 250 right rear spring and a 225 on the lr clamped infront with the short bar 2inches of rake in the 2nd hole on the pinion i am going to leave the lr alone for now i think it 20pds to see if it will loosen me up off the corner and middle and just hope i have to soften the rr or add lr thanks for the info i think it may help the car with the spring on the bc thanks

JT54
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 170
posted November 08, 2004 11:42 AM  
I Ran the spring on top most of the season on my short 3 link.....I was fighting a tight condition on entry and in the middle and then the car would stay rolled over too longcoming off ....I made many changes to free the car up a little but nothing seemed to work.....after the season was over I finaly had some time to study what was going on and my conclusion is that my right rear spring was going past center when the chassis rolled which in affect mad the spring loose spring rate and keep the car on the right rear too long.....this made my car inconsistant so I will need to move my screw jack to the inside of my right rail and put some more static angle in it then when the chassis rolls it will end up at vertical and take full advantage of the available spring rate.....hope this all made sence.

dirtywrench13
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 324
posted November 08, 2004 11:46 AM  
WE HAVE OURS ON TOP OF THE HOUSING, BOTTOM WELDED TO A CLAMP, AND THE ADJUSTER SCREW IS WELDED TO THE INSIDE OF THE CAGE BAR. I HAD TO MAKE A CUSTOM MOUNT ON THE HOUSING,AND SET IT UP SO IT DIDNT INTERFEAR WITH THE BC.WORKS BETTER THAN WHAT I MADE BEFORE,WICH WAS 8 INCHES FARTHER INBOARD ON THE AXLE. THE CAR ROLLED WAY TOO FAR LIKE THAT,NOW I HAVE A LITTLE CONTROLL OVER THE ROLL.

rpm20
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 338
posted November 08, 2004 12:01 PM  
if your rear has the scew jack fitting welded to the inside of the rail, isnt the spring awful close to your center section on the rearend?

i was considering moving my bc out and my links out on the rr and putting my adjuster on the outside of the top rail with about 10 degrees inward rake on the top of the spring cup or even coming off the front of the bc with a spring cup offset to the inside and putting the adjuster through the existing extra shock mout on the outside of the top right rail.

dirtbuster
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 2007
posted November 08, 2004 12:01 PM  
JT54,
Thats what we decided part of the problem was with ours. With the short bar the rearend would move a long ways to the left and the spring would go past center. The spring would then not only compress but it was trying to stretch it sideways if that makes any since. Its like each coil was shifted 1" left(viewed from the back) of the one above it and it really wasnt compressing squarely. At the point the car rolled over the farthest the spring would lose rate and then you get on the gas and more weight transfers back except there was no spring there to hold it up. The LR bars were getting a lot of bite but since the spring on the RR was ineffective there was no drive from the right side making the car extremely tight middle off.

JT54
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 170
posted November 08, 2004 08:11 PM  
Bingo !.....thats what I love about this board ,you can figure things out sooooo much easier with all the feedback people are willing to give.

Kromulous
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 796
posted November 12, 2004 02:11 PM  
I've been studing this for a little bit and i noticed it on some Late Models. I think they (chassis builders) are trying to get the spring to go off center on purpose.

It should make the spring progressive in away and inverted at that. Alot easier to keep the weight on the RR if the spring is collapsing when the body rolls onto it. The more roll the softer the spring gets, hard to get it consistent as you all said thou i would imagine.

Anyway, just a thought.

WPP
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 451
posted November 13, 2004 05:12 AM  
Dirtbuster are you running the short lower bars 12.5 what dw recommends and 14.5 on the uppers and is there a differce when running the jack bolt spring cup on the bc then the slider. It seems to me the slider back on the cage would almost be the same or just with the cup it could be bind free . I talk to a few guys that also have their rr with a wj infront and say it works better i am just trying to figure out why on the bc thanks

dirtbuster
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 2007
posted November 15, 2004 08:12 AM  
wpp
If you are talking about the difference on thr RR with a jack bolt or slider, then no there really isnt any difference if they are both mounted to the front of the BC. I was amazed though how much freer the car felt just bouncing it with out sliders on the car. That is the advantage of the weigh jack over the slider at least in my opinion.

Not sure about hte z link bars but the 4 link bars we have aare about 14.5 lower and 16.5 upper. I think the z link bars are about the same. That is the way they came from DW, I think all the 9's were that way.

WPP
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 451
posted November 15, 2004 04:20 PM  
Ok on the the weight jack this weekend i pulled out the the older viper slider i used to run i always thought the car was better with that slider as far as bars on the dw 8 they are 14.5 and 12.5 can you tell any differce in the longer bars on the dw 9 thanks

dirtbuster
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 2007
posted November 16, 2004 08:00 AM  
If your slider is in good shape you shouldnt have any problems. The advantage of the slider is it will keep the spring in line and compress it squarely. Without a slider the spring tends to get stretched and bowed, but like most things its a compromise. Advantages to both you just have to pick.

Never ran a dw8 4link really say if there is a lot of difference. We have run long and short 2 links and I would think the shorter bars would react quicker and might be a bit touchy on and off the bars, but thats jsut speculation. It seems like 15 and 17 are pretty popular numbers, between alot of manufacturers.

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