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Author Topic:   UMP Rules, Revamp needed?
Kromulous
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 796
posted June 02, 2004 03:04 PM  
Been reading on alot of boards about modifieds and how there basicly getting out of hand in terms of money needed to campaign a competetive modified now days.

So i thought i would post and ask what you all thought needed to be done about it, or if anything ?

Personnally, we run UMP rules, and i dont like there rules set much. There is far to much room for high dollar outfits to spend to win. While i dont like the idea of crate motors at all i think there can be some rules that can make it easier to run a modified. Even if its just creating a B-Mod for UMP folks.

The NARA series running in KY seems to be the best set of modified rules i seen so far. I like the fact that you have to run the harder compound tires (All 3 brands), and allowed to run a spoiler, but there still could be room for improvement on there rule set.

Iron heads maybe, Iron intakes, C.U. inch max, and maybe spec header rule. Anything to reduce the cost of the engines. **** these ideas might make it worse, not sure.

Currently the UMP rules are so free, that most guys are running engines on par with some Late Model engines, and i never thought that was the intent for modifieds, but maybe thats the whole problem, intent.

Whats your ideas for bringing modifeds back inline with the intent of a cheaper form of racing, basicly a intermediate class.

STICK01
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 164
posted June 02, 2004 03:33 PM  
kromulos

I run UMP and agree that their rules are out of hand, when you can spend as much money in a engine alone as you can to build an entire car, there seems to be something wrong. I think UMP when they got rid of their LM-20 LR and LM 30 RR tire rule in the LM division was the means to the end, and then started to line their pockets with the mod guys' money. Funny, but they appear to have lost a lot of revenue of peopl enot coming back and joining their organization as members. Wonder why? changing rules in the middle of a season, yeah that is probably a good idea...NOT if you have rules enforce them, if not then call it run what ya brung!!!

I would rather be put on hard tires and not have to buy a new D-40 RR every other week...or spend 5 - 10,000 on a engine, but there are not any other options in my area to race competitively.

just my two cents

racer50
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 24
posted June 02, 2004 07:49 PM  
I agree that the money put into engines is getting out of hand, but the problem with engine rules is enforceing engine rules. Not many tracks are going to tear down the top 3 finishers to make sure there legal week in and week out, just takes too much time. Maybe a harder tire is the answer.

Dustejr73
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 177
posted June 02, 2004 09:50 PM  
I feel that going back to a tire like the IMCA american racer is the way to go. we run hoosiers at most tracks in the northwest, but a lot of the california tracks are going back to IMCA. the costs have gotten completely out of hand and we have a serious lack of tech.

IowaFuzzy1
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 136
posted June 03, 2004 12:28 AM  
I really feel the best way to control engine cost is still the claim if it's done properly and enforced consistently. We have guys running 18 degree motors and SB2 stuff where we race. You're talking 10 to 20 thousand for a motor,that's a long way from the $300 claim that IMCA started out with!! I'm not saying we should go back to that,but a reasonable claim price should be attainable and easier to enforce than a spec motor. The spec motor takes the little guy who still builds his own motor out of the picture.....Just my two cents worth .
SEE YA AT THE RACES!!!

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dirtywrench13
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 324
posted June 03, 2004 05:27 AM  
try runnin imca for a year!we have the same stuff you are talkin about!the engine in my mod is worth 10x what the car is. thats only to be competitive!noone sticks to the rules, noone enforces the rules,the rules change every night, and they depend on who you are. what a load!we're just happy to qualify and race without any problems!

NJantz
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 755
posted June 03, 2004 06:18 AM  
As much as I don't like the IMCA claim rule, I do believe it helps contain engine costs.
I would just like to see a clause added to the IMCA rules where you could run a "spec" engine and be inelgible for the claim. And for the ones who don't run the spec engine, make them add 200lbs.

The claim is most effective when it is used. IMCA says that claims only happen 3% of the time. So your chances of being claimed really aren't that good, therefore reducing the effectiveness of the claim rule.

Even in IMCA it still takes a healthy motor on nights when the track is heavy. Your little low buck 355 won't get the job done.

Harder compound tires do help in reducing the effectiveness of big horsepower, but over the years we have all seen the rear suspension of the modified evolve and how this is getting the tires hooked up requiring more horsepower.

Perhaps the SIMS limited modified or the IMCA sport mod is the next replacement for the IMCA/UMP mod. It's happening already in Texas. These are basically what mods were when they first started.

Look back in time or ask any old timer, and they'll tell you that the death of about every class has been money. As costs got out of control, the car counts began to plummet.

A little off the subject, but I'd like to see track promoters look for ways to make their tracks more car friendly. Make them wider so you have somewhere to go when trouble starts and replace the big heavy tractor tires that line the infields. Those always eat up cars when you hit one good and its never cheap for the repairs.
These safety enhancements would help save the racer money.


Kromulous
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 796
posted June 03, 2004 08:37 AM  
Well doesnt look like i am the only one that see's an issue with the current rule set with the sanctioning bodies.

You all think a realistic claim rule is the answer? If a claimer rule is to be realistic i think it would have to be harsh, and some consequences to met with if you choose not to allow the claim. Something along the lines of a 2000 dollar claim, and if you dont allow it you cant race at any UMP or whatever sanctioned race for a month or more.

Harder tires on the RR and RF is a good easy, & realistic place to start slowing down the money flow in Mod racing, but there needs to be more. Something easy to tech, teching the top 5's tires with a durometer and your eyes isnt going to be to hard and all tracks should be able to do it easy enough.

Dont get me wrong i like outlaw style racing, nything goes throw money it at like there is no tomorow, but Modifieds i thought were intended to be a intermidate intro to dirt track racing. Now days its evolving into high end racing on par with LM's.

Then again, UMP and others could solve alot of this with a B-Mod class and allow the A-Mod guys to go hog wild. I this is popular in Oklahoma area and seems like a great idea to me.

Although a B-Mod class may make the trouble worse, thru lack of teching the cars etc.

sdracer12
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 180
posted June 03, 2004 09:03 PM  
Just my opinion, and I don't know anything about UMP, BUT here goes:

We race for WISSOTA sanction here in the Upper Midwest, and I agree that the Mods have gotten very expensive. We have a spec. motor option and a "claimable" motor option in the A mods. The spec. is 360 limit, full roller cam and rockers, no titanium, with either World Product Sportsman or Bowtie spec. untouched heads. A good Spec. motor is on par with our Late model engines, costing between 5 and 10 grand. Claimable motor is a joke, no roller, production heads, but bigger cu. than a spec. Most popular is the spec. motor.
I like the spec. motor for reliabilty and power(if you can afford it...).

Wissota also has a B-mod class, called Midwest Mods. Same suspension as big mods, no spoiler, Automatic trannys with torque converter, and limited motors. Motor is 9-1 flattop, production heads, small valves, 2-barrel Holley on gas. The midwest mods provide some of the best racing, with good handling cars and smaller motors. It is a very fast growing class with good car counts at most of the tracks in our area.

Maybe UMP needs to look at something like this. Dividing the mods into a go-fast class, and a more economical class has really worked for Wissota.

Check out www.wissota.org for rules.

Kromulous
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 796
posted June 04, 2004 08:50 AM  
Yep, i looked at WISSOTA's rules, i like them really well. The B-Mod set up is really nice, for guys like me on a limited budget.

Alot of sanctioning bodies should look at the current WISSOTA and NARA rule set and take notes on how to improve there own.

Although i heard today that UMP is allowing tubular A-arms on the front now. Unsure of the price of them, but i think its an indication of the direction of the class.

IowaFuzzy1
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 136
posted June 05, 2004 01:01 AM  
We have a B mod class at one of the tracks where we race,it was origanally started to get new blood into the game.1st yr.6 or 7 cars last year10 to12 ,this year12 to 16.the problem is guys who could,nt run with the regulars have moved down. They have a 360 cube and 2bbl carb rule.They also allow bigger engine with an add 200 lbs.rule,SOME penalty that is,you run a 406 you NEED! the extra weight,the big motor cars dominate the class. There's some good ideas out there,the trick is to get promoters to put them together and STICK TO THEM!!"Yeah and water is gonna run uphill" !!!
GO FAST,RIDE THE TOP!!

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IowaFuzzy1
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 136
posted June 05, 2004 09:57 PM  
While we're on the subject of the cost of racing,what do you pay for a pit pass where you race? We pay 15.00 at one track and 30.00at the other.I personally feel that 30.00 for a pit pass is a RIP OFF!!! I know that this is a ,little off track, no pun intended, but it is becoming a major expence.
Thanks

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chapa73
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 169
posted June 06, 2004 11:51 AM  
here in oklahoma we have the limited mod class,they run on asphalt take-off,and run tock clutch and torque converters.the problem is every tyrack has some sort of different rules.

The track I run at just raised the pit pass to $25,it was $20

I think 25 is alittle much for a pitpass,right now the track is hurting for cars,so way raise the pit pass?

on the subject of low car counts,are the tracks you race at had lower car counts.
Last year when I raced FActory Stocks,we had 20-25 cars on average every nite,now that class is in the 8-12 cars per nite,no rule changes to the class.just seems nobady is racing as much.

PEDDLER
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 446
posted June 06, 2004 07:43 PM  
Most of the tracks in Texasare $25 for a pit pass...Too D&%@ high..JMO

zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1875
posted June 06, 2004 08:41 PM  
i think a new sanctioning body with a strict set of rules would be an effecient way of controling cost.
chassis.
same as now but allow a steel, locked qc rearend with only pre approved gears in the same ratios, or close to that of a 9 inch so you dont have to buy gears. this would be steel tube, with large inspection holes. and a cheap qc does not cost much more than a 9 inch(this is optional, 9 inch still legal and always will be) 25 extra pounds for the qc on total wieght.
that way only new cars or new guys getting into the sport or guys that like to travel will get them and no performance or gear choice advantage to them. but lets them buy gears cheaper.
leave the rest of the car alone. american racer tires, steel wheels. 8 inch wide.
2450 with driver after race, 2475 with qc after race.

motor rules..
only pre apporoved unaltered stock, or certain lower budget aftermarket steel heads. stock blocks no darts. no roller cams.
no msd igintion(most cars would run dui ignitions probally).
gas only, this helps because it is easier on motors, and helps car stay more netural in handling.
preappoved carbs from a few different manufactors, let very few alterations happen.
bert or brinn tranny with regular flywheel and starter in stock position.
also like a 45-50 pound crank in the motor also.
i feel this would be a good class for very fast a mod competition.

as for a b mod
chassis-any front stub used now so you can use used chassis. then on the rearend a 3 link. both lower links must be 16 inches or longer. and the upper link must be solid. no sliders on the rearend, one spring per wheel as well as one shock per wheel.
3 inch offsets on the front and lr and 4 inch rr. rr beadlock only. rr mudplug only.
motor
stock heads or a select aftermarket dart or pro topline head(nothing fancy no port work at all).
spec intake.
holley 500cfm carb stock.
360 cube max. 350 blocks only(for chevy, similar rule for fords i just dont know much about ford motors.)
crank weight rule. steel rods, i beam only.
spec solid lift cam, one of a few to choose.
no msd box.
bert or brinn tranny.
weigh 2500 after race.

truthtalker2
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 46
posted June 06, 2004 08:53 PM  
first of all i agree the cost of running mods is WAY out of hand. i have thought real hard how to make them cheaper but everything could and most likely make the cost just go up more. here are some things i have thought and heard to make them cheaper and there counter acts that will fellow
cast iron heads and intakes= have you priced the bresenski intakes and heads if you say cast iron people will buy them @700.00 for intake and 1800.00 for heads
hard tire= a new tire is faster then a old tire and this really applies to hard tires trust me i ran a tire rule you might not wear the tire out but if you are going to win you will have new tires every other week because the big budget guys will
create engines=this will kill the small time engine builder but more important is they are only cheap now because no major saction makes you run them but if ump or imca was to make you run one the price will go up a ton. JMO

cozmo
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 99
posted June 07, 2004 05:02 AM  
The problem with any rules is that no mater how strict you make them there is always someone out there that is going to out spend the average racer to try to get an advantage, and drive the price up of being competitive. You can see it in any class of racing.

Kromulous
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 796
posted June 07, 2004 05:46 AM  
There are ways to keep racing a non cubic buck spending sport. We just havn't found them yet.

Harder tires is a start. There will be people that buy new every couple of races and there is nothing you can do about it, but i dont think new tires have that much of an advantage, at least not to me. Particularly when there hard and you got grinders at the shop.

The Steel heads and intakes are another problem. Like another poster said, 1800 dollars for steel heads and another 800 for the intake is insane. So thats not a answer.

Outside of spec engine parts i cant think of any, but will give it more thought. Zeroracing has some good ideas, maybe we can expand on that.

As well, like Cozmo said there will always be the people out there that force the price up by being overly competitive. Sometimes having more open rules is better i guess, who knows.

Jdown
Dirt Newbie

Total posts: 2
posted June 10, 2004 09:17 AM  
Pit passes in our area are $20 for standard race and $25 for spedial events.

By limiting mods to anything other than stock components, someone will manufacture a part that conforms to new rules, yet outperforms everything else available. They will also charge a premium for this, and you WILL have to have it to be competitive. We will then be right back to where we are now, spending entirely too much money.

But then again, this is just my opinion...

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