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Author Topic:   I hear ya, BUT.................
Racer111
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 259
posted February 24, 2004 03:21 PM  
Yes i want coilovers .Coilover kit $55.00 dont get ruined in a crash,Slider $85.00-$150.00 junk after a crash.Cheaper .Thats the problem we run a bunch of parts that cost more then what is out there.WHY ?

modracr41
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 130
posted February 24, 2004 03:23 PM  
Brownstone, quit arguing with them. They obviously don't get it. They want to price the mods out just as the late models have. Just look back, if they could, several people here would run a limited late model. They don't want the aluminum block, but they do want the coilover shocks, quick change rearend, bert/brinn type tranny, next they'll want a dry sump so they can take advantage of the power and tell us that's cheaper, too. I was told once, "Never argue with an idiot as people looking on won't be able to tell the difference." Just my opinion and.................See ya at the track!!

Racer111
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 259
posted February 24, 2004 03:33 PM  
We want the price to go down but IDIOTS as is posted cant add.Thats the problem with the price of the mods.Run oddball stuff and pay more for it.WHY ?

zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1875
posted February 24, 2004 04:19 PM  
Personally i could care less about the coil overs. but if regulated to steel shocks, non adjustable you would save money. Sliders are very very pricy as much as 150+. So you would save money by going with coil overs, and you could get late model used shocks and springs.
i dont care if we get them or not, this post is about qc.
as far as qc i dont understand why people think that they are going to ruin the mod class. If regulated they would make it more affordable, first off you could by parts and gears cheaper, replace broken tubes etc. and if you wanted to keep the 9 inch then you can buy everybody elses gears for cheap. not to mention that street stocks could get our gears cheap so that would help alot of racers not just mods.
The limited late model thing is out of hand alot of places. I agree on that. But bert and brinn trannys are much cheaper than a layne was(good tranny).
Look over a mod today. They are not stock anymore. its time to save some money, qc will do that. it is simple math.
as far as coil overs vs spring sliders, to end all debate you can just make it so no sliders or co. alot of cars are getting rid of sliders bc they bind up and add to cost anyways.
as far as
"Never argue with an idiot as people looking on won't be able to tell the difference." i take offense to this because are you saying everybody that is for a qc is an idiot. I do not feel most people here are idiots, there are bound to be some. I take offense to it myself.
and if anybody has not noticed
MODS HAVE ALREADY GOTTEN TO PRICY. i know of a few cars that spend over 30,000 a year and only win once or dont at all.

brownstone
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 284
posted February 24, 2004 04:57 PM  
I am not calling anyone anything. However, I still think that the QC's will be an issue, you can say steel only but it will only be a matter of time before someone says.....\

I would sure be a lot cheaper and better if we could run the lightweight ones that we can get used from the late model guys, you can count on it, that will be next.

then it will be alluminum QC ok with added weight....right ? just like the alluminum heads.

Also for those of us that run UMP tracks, who will police the QC's to make sure they are the approved steel ones and not the lightweight ones ???? UMP barely even bothers to check if you have a cage much less check the rearend.

On the coilover deal, no dice, a lot of people have quit using sliders. Every time somebody wants the coil overs, they cry about the sliders. I aint buying it. Plus there are a lot of good chassis out there dont run sliders, 3 link for one.

Where will it stop ??? QC's coilovers, why dont we get wider tires and also lets get rid of that pesky weight rule too, who needs anyway...

With the coilovers and QC, you are shy a front body package and wider tires from running many limited late classes across the country. If you want a limited late then move up, run the cheap QC and the cheap coil overs and leave the mods alone. Many limited late classes only allow one tire one RR so there you go you can run that class get all the things you want.

[This message has been edited by brownstone (edited February 24, 2004).]

ford5
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 711
posted February 24, 2004 05:32 PM  
what brownstone said.....

nut3d
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 331
posted February 24, 2004 05:39 PM  
if you want a quick change get a late model.
if you want coil overs get a late model. If not quit whineing and go on with ya lives.

fastow
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 168
posted February 24, 2004 05:47 PM  
Zero well said ' Let me add this little thought and I bet it will get alot of people thinking. If one wants to save a mod racer money make some new rules to save money the quick change as we read in this post and do the math saves money if you think the 9 inch is the way to go thats ok to maybe even the 8 3\4 ford rear end would be an option strong light might be easier one to find. LOL then lets outlaw them sliders jack bolts only less maintance and cheaper. now rear suspensions lets make the rule 3 link or leaf springs two springs and two shocks on the rear no 90\10's no $200 pullrods nice and simple cheap. NOW WE ARE SAVING SOME $$$ lets go on no alky gas only maybe even 2 barrel would not be bad. Here an idea a oltimer come with a while back make them all manual steering there's maybe $300 saved you say can't steer em, if the caster is set for it and you have a nice size wheel with the little tires and engine set back as far as they are if one could not steer one of these how did any one ever drive a 500 mile race back in the 60's think how them steered. I know this is a little far out but when one wants to talk about making mods cheeper on one post then turn right around and talk about junking a set of sliders for a better set and changeing from z link to 4 bar to mono leaf to 3 link then maybe a new and emproved alky set up who's driving the cost up. its the racers wanting all of it and the promoters letting them have it. No matter what the rules same racers will be there and the same cream of the crop will rise to the top and it won't matter if the are running a QC or 9 inch and the rest will be chasing them around complaining how expensive it is. Just an opinion if I give enough opinions you think I might get kick off this site. LOL

modracr41
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 130
posted February 24, 2004 09:21 PM  
Zero, I never called anyone an idiot. I simply stated a saying that I have been told numerous times and if the shoe fits wear it, if not then it doesn't apply to you. Brownstone, Nut and others are exactly right. If you don't like it the way it is, try something else such as a limited Late Model where they have all of the stuff you mention. If you don't want to do that, then be happy you can race in a class where you can race almost any Thursday through Sunday from April to October from California to North Carolina. Most of us have absorbed the cost of more 9" gears and our cars are complete and ready to run. We aren't going to save money by going out and buying more parts. That's like saying you are going to save your way to wealth by spending more. It just won't happen. If you relax the standards to allow these "upgrades" you make our already paid for parts obsolete. It will cost us more money to upgrade or take a disadvantage. THAT is the point we're making. Nothing more. Just my opinion and ..................See ya at the track!!

[This message has been edited by modracr41 (edited February 24, 2004).]

zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1875
posted February 25, 2004 12:11 AM  
I would save money because i dont own very many 9 inch gears, on top of that i have snapped rear alxe tubes in half, would be nice to be able to quick change those at the track. Also it would help new racers get into the class cheaper, or allow small teams to go to more tracks.
so are you guys against new drivers?
and the whole if they make them legal then everybody with a 9 inch will be at a disadvantage. make up your minds, last month the thing was keep 9 inch because they are an advantage over a qc. make up your minds people. I understand that people do not want them, thats fine its your choice. thats fine, that is what the forum is for. i am just saying guys against qc pick either the qc is better or worse. dont filp flop.

NJantz
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 755
posted February 25, 2004 06:13 AM  
I don't know for sure, but I'd like to see how much power is required to turn a quickchange vs. a 9". I'd bet the quickchange robs more power and doesn't weigh any less. If thats the case, then what does it matter if a person wants to buy $50 gearsets instead of $500 gearsets. What does it matter if a guy wants to easily change out a bent axle tube vs. attempting to repair a bent 9" housing. Do you enjoy setting up 9" gears? Do you enjoy lugging those big clods around? I like my life easy.

Why would the anti-quickchange guys really care if there is no performance gain. The days of building racecars from the junkyards are almost over.

This is a lot like the powerglide vs. Bert/Brinn/Falcon argument. It costs a little more to first get into one, but once you do, you are money ahead.

Maybe it depends on how you view your racing. I'm more for looking at the long term effects. In the long run the quickchange makes sense to me. Prove me wrong! You've got less money invested if you want to run more than one track and the repair costs are less.

I do understand the argument that if you have already built a good inventory of 9" gear sets that you wouldn't want to make the conversion. But who is forcing you to change and if there is not a performance advantage then why do it? Why can't we run q.c.'s and 9" in the same class?

zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1875
posted February 25, 2004 07:29 AM  
Thank you njantz thats what i have been trying to say the whole time.

brownstone
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 284
posted February 25, 2004 08:52 AM  
As stated previously......

Who is going to police this ??????

Not UMP they barely even look at your car...

Unsanctioned tracks, maybe....

This is a smoke screen, just trying to sneak the camels nose in the tent so that down the road yall can try to sneak in the QC's that the Late Model guys use lightweight. The truth came out once Racer 111 threw in his 2 cents with the coilovers.

Someone posted on here that a 9 inch is an oddball, thats far from the truth, last time I checked Nascar still runs them. If the QC so much better why arent they legal in NASCAR, ASA or others dont they want to save all this money too ?

No one forces you to run sliders either thats up to each person. I have ran for years without them.

If all these parts are such a huge savings then why arent yall running late models ?

YOu can run ALL these ultra cheap and vastly superior parts and get paid more to do it in a lot of cases.

All these items can be used with a stock clip car. Also a lot of the limited late classes make you run one spec tire on the rear. With all the savings that I keep hearing about whats holding yall back ?

Heck ALL that money you would save on gears and coilovers you could buy a lot if tires.

Dman
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 270
posted February 25, 2004 09:02 AM  
Hey guys!If it aint broke don't fix it. QC's are heavier.No performance gain.I don't know about your cars but mine don't have enough room for a QC. QCs are physically larger and they would definitely get into my fuel cell and I believe I would need a shorter drive shaft.So you have to rebuild your rear clip or get a smaller cell and by another drive shaft or two(need to carry a spare you know).Check it out.
Leave the Mod class alone.It has already evolved too far as it is.In the long run a QC is cheaper I agree.But I get annoyed with the constant rule changes going on and all the complaining that goes along with it.It would be cost effective for any new folks getting in to the sport but only if they were coming in with a brand new car.Most new folks in my area buy used cars that are 9" equipped.What I am saying is please don't let the mods evolve into late models. Having raced Late models I really prefer the Modifieds.They are definitely cheaper to run and alot more durable.Thanks to this site for letting us all share our opinions.Good luck to everyone this season.Dman

rrrrick
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 192
posted February 25, 2004 11:22 AM  
I agree with leaving the rules alone. As Cozmo says with his NE Dirt Modified, they have fully fabricated frames, center steering, QC rear, Bert or Brinn trans 13" tire ( with a choice of two or three compounds I forget) Aluminum Wheels ( with bead locks all around) Here is the Kicker...$23,000.00 358 steel head motor ( gosh, I remember when that was a great Tony Feil motor for $11,500) . The problem is , anyplace in the NE where they run these cars, the race for $1500.00 to win. Heck in 1990 we got $200.00 to start the main with those cars. http://www.dirtmotorsports.com/carclasses.htm
Racers are the worst people to make rules, the 9" that used to be a stock rear from a Lincoln or such is ( free or almost free from your local junk yard) is now a $1200.00 lightweight chromemoly full floater.
The stock 9" chunk running your car in third Compared to the $900.00 lightened, spooled and gundrilled third member
The $25.00 Monroe shocks are now the ( at least) $100.00 rebuildables. The springs mounted over the rear have become the much maligned $150.00 spring sliders.
The cheap junkyard transmission has become a $1200.00 Brinn

Lets not forget radios... we need em to keep from tearing up our new $28,000.00 racecar

So, if you look at these modifieds from todays car, the Quick change is not that big a step. But, looking at them from what they started as... the quick change is like a space shuttle compared to a cessna http://www.dirtmotorsports.com/03/entry_forms/entry1.htm Check out the entry form, $40.00 entry, $4000.00 to win . That would be enough to make make of the promoters of the stock clip cars **** cheeks clinch . $40.00 That is what most "promoters" want to charge for a weekly show around here
So.. I guess you could lobby your local racetrack to bring the boundless DIRT modifieds to a track near you... the rules are just what the QC, coilover, wide tire,beadlock people want.


cozmo
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 99
posted February 25, 2004 01:35 PM  
Don’t forget the Super Dirt Series tour
Big Block
358s
sportsmans
The nationally televised races (i.e. speed)
http://www.dirtmotorsports.com/

also the driver adjustments in the car(we had 11 adj from the seat)

[This message has been edited by cozmo (edited February 25, 2004).]

rrrrick
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 192
posted February 25, 2004 06:05 PM  
Cozmo... you did just opposite of myself... After growing up with the DIRT mods, I have moved west and now run a IMCA mod. My dad still shakes his head and wonders how we race on these skinny hard tires, and the claim rule is the reason I can't get him to ship his 339 out here. Good luck with your season, our is already got a few weeks in.


cozmo
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 99
posted February 26, 2004 05:52 AM  
rrrrick,

There is a lot of things that we run that I wouldn’t want to see introduce to the IMCA class it would get the class out of control $$$$$. The QC would be a money saver as long as it’s controlled properly. There are teams in our class that are playing around with titanium; but most of them are running the tour and it doesn’t make them any faster they just have the money to try it. I wouldn’t want our 358 claimed either. To much money tied up in it.

zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1875
posted February 26, 2004 06:40 AM  
Everybody that wants a qc thinks they should be teched hard. it would not be to hard.
As far as the move up to limited late model deal, or late model. well, here mods pay more than late models or limited late models, the limited late models tear up alot of stuff and only race for a few hundred i think. and the full late models, is completely different then what anybody wants, first off big tires, noboday is asking for that, fancy qc not a cheapy, and oh yeah a 30,000 dollar motor.
People are not asking for big tires and al that. just a qc to save money, and some people want co.
i have an idea for all of you guys that dont want to change the mod class. right now the normal mods cost to much and will just continue to rise. so instead of us moving to a class that pays less like late model. you guys worried about how much the qc will riun the class many tracks have a b mod class. that would fit you great.
and as far as the comment about nascar and asa use 9 inch... they are not doing it to save money. look at the cost of one of those cars. they are not doing much to save money.
i will just be happy in a few years because mods will get them. there is no avoiding it. in 5-10 years they will have them.

modracr41
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 130
posted February 26, 2004 02:39 PM  
Also, Zero, how do you plan on fitting that QC into your car? I couldn't fit one in my HOT chassis if my life depended on it. Not enough room for the fuel cell. Now, you're making my car obsolete as well. Don't you guys see, I am not saying that a quick change isn't cheaper in the long run. I'm not saying that they are better or worse than a 9". I'm not going to argue those points. The point that I'm trying to make, as well as Brownstone, Nut, and several others, is that we are already too close to a late model as it is. Our cars already cost wayyy too much. I've just now gotten my car to the point to where it is competitive out of my own pocket and I hear guys like yourselves wanting to try to make a better wheel. If the quick change is such a good deal, why isn't it used in NASCAR? You can't run it in the truck series, the Bush series or Nextel cup. They have wayyy more money than I do and they don't do it. Why? I can answer that. It would be too hard to police. That's one reason I'm against it. The second reason is that it won't fit in my car, and most other cars that are out there now. So you would have to get a new car or change the rear clip on your car to make it fit. MORE money. Why try to fix something that thousands of people don't think is broken? I know you can't please all of the people all of the time, but in my humble opinion, this is something that doesn't need to happen. Easier? Yes. Cheaper? Maybe. Necessary? DEFINITELY NOT!! Leave good enough alone.

[This message has been edited by modracr41 (edited February 26, 2004).]

fastow
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 168
posted February 26, 2004 05:34 PM  
Modracr41 How would it make your car obsolete if yours would have the great high dollar 9 inch ford in it. I do really think if your had the gearing anywhere close the 9 inch ford would have the advantage over the guys with the quick change. With policeing a quick change what is there to police unless your worried about allminum tubes you could almost police that following them on the track and if that is an issue what about the light wieght spools and gun drilled axles that are in the 9 inch rear ends. At least light wieght tubes can be seen. One reason NASCAR don't use em is cause 9 inch type setup is less drag and like zero said money is not an issue to them guys and there is not a piece on them cars that comes off a stock production car. We all know we well be there racing most likely just a little more than we can afford no matter what the rules are but I think anyone who thinks we are going to be running production stuff in 5 to 10 years is fooling themselves I say get on with racing and let these stock 9 inch deal go to the collecter guys.

zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1875
posted February 26, 2004 09:03 PM  
modracer i plan to fit it in a new car. or just pick up my welder and move stuff. we can fabricate our entire car so it is no cost to me to change my car around. i also use gas which saves money and only uses like 10 gallon total so i do not need a 32 cell.
I never said mandate them and all the people against them say that 9 inch is better. so keep the dang thing and let us that want them cut up our cars and have extra problems. Also they would be easy to police, easier to take apart than a 9 inch, which alot of them are cheating in them.
Another thing is it will save money. not maybe but will.
but everybody against them dont complain when you have to change classes. the price is raising. and sooner or later you will not have enough money.
qc saves money. and i have said earlier, steel tubes, locked rears, and mandate only 9 inch gear ratios.
easy to check(magnet or just look).
If your worried about cost and policing things look at traction control. they are going to ruin the mod class first.

brownstone
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 284
posted February 27, 2004 07:26 AM  
These comments dont add up.....

If the QC's and coilovers are such a HUGE savings then why arent we all running limited lated models.

Many of them have spec rear tires. Since you say there is such a HUGE savings then whats keeping racers from switching to limited lates ?

Cant the rest of the racers do the math ??

Dont give me the purse story either, the weekly show down here pays 450 to win at many tracks, so I aint buying.

Now if I could run for the same $450 and save ALL THAT BIG MONEY on the QC and the coilovers then I would have it right, some how this does not add up........

UMP and others cant and wont police the rules they have now.

Why I should believe they would come around and suddenly start checking for the QC's and making sure they are the right ones and that they dont have illegal gears ?

Maybe Santa Claus or the EAster Bunny will be there to help tech too ....

[This message has been edited by brownstone (edited February 27, 2004).]

Racer111
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 259
posted February 27, 2004 07:48 AM  
QC still the best way to go !!!!!

littleb24f
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 36
posted February 27, 2004 08:08 AM  
Man, this is starting to sound like a beer ad. Taste great, Less filling! I'm just amazed how a few people take on a discussion like dodge ball. Or even political debate, they all have the resons with nothing to show. If QC are cheaper make out a cost of one to another. Qc v.s. 9" I havn't looked into cost of a new QC but I don't think you can get one around $900 complete? Of course you can buy used but I don't feel comfortable running someone elses used parts. I have all the 9" gears I need, so if I buy a QC I have the price of a new one, plus say 3 sets of gears to go along to start out. Lets throw it out on the table. Cause I don't see the cost saving in running one. If you show the total cost savings maybe people will understand better. I don't really care if they do allow QC as long as you have a option. It's all by definition, so everyone will see it from their point. Cost not convenience thats the question.

[This message has been edited by littleb24f (edited February 27, 2004).]

graham jackson
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 42
posted February 27, 2004 09:06 AM  
24, dont forget to include the cost and time involved in butchering up the rear clip of you car to make the QC fit as many of us would have to do.

dirtbuster
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 2007
posted February 27, 2004 09:42 AM  
I'll admit up front this may not be exact but i think should be close.
For the 9" assembly ~$1000
Most racers prob have 2 or 3 gears @ $400 minimum ea =$1200+
Thats roughly $2200+ for the 9"

Now for the QC the price I found was for magnesium center and aluminum tubes so I would thnk the aluminum center and steel tubes would be cheaper yet, but ill run with the mag/alum for now.
QC=$1450
misc to finish asembly guessing 500?
3 sets of gears @ 60$ = $180
total roughly $2130

I know the numbers might not be exact but you can see start up cost might not be that much different but in the long run especially with multiple gears the QC would be cheaper and convenient.

Im not saying they should be legal but I dont think there is as much price difference as some may think. If you only carry 1 or 2 gears for you 9" then that may be the cheaper way but start adding more gears and its clear the QC quickly becomes better looking.

[This message has been edited by dirtbuster (edited March 01, 2004).]

cozmo
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 99
posted February 27, 2004 10:13 AM  
Don’t forget when you break or bend an axle tube. The time it takes to change out the whole axle of a 9” compared to one side of a QC. Even if you replace one side of a 9” you have to cut and weld in a new tube. A QC you just bolt a new one in. $160 and 15 min done. I would rather spend the time maintaining the car than having the time wasted on a repair that can be made simple(time is money); because we all know that general maintenance of the car can win or loose the race.

zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1875
posted February 27, 2004 11:01 AM  
"Dont give me the purse story either, the weekly show down here pays 450 to win at many tracks, so I aint buying"
Here the limited lates pay like 300 or something like that to win. and the full lates pay 750.
the mods pay 800 on friday and 1000 on saturday.
so there is the purse story. It pays most to race a mod. but you could make more money if you had a qc. and like cozmo said, you can change tubes fast if you break.
if you dont believe me about the purse go to www.centralmissourispeedway.com

[This message has been edited by zeroracing (edited February 27, 2004).]

graham jackson
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 42
posted February 27, 2004 02:33 PM  
Yes the purse may be less for the limiteds but with HUGE amounts of money you could save runnning the QC and the coil overs, I am sure it would come out ahead in the end.

Or another way to put it is since the mods pay more quick crying and run the 9 inch like the rest of us.

fastow
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 168
posted February 28, 2004 02:28 AM  
Hey I got an idea lets ask the late models and see if they would be interested in trading a 9 inch ford for there quick change. LOL another thing you guys keep saying if we like the quick change move to the limited late models well I have never seen a limit late model with the g60 american racer, no fenders and the engine set back that the mods have. I think if I where setting in the stands I could tell the difference between a limited late model and a mod but most people in the stands would never know if it has a quick change or 9 inch in it.

dirtbuster
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 2007
posted February 28, 2004 11:01 PM  
Asked around over the weekend and was told you can get a QC for 1400 ready to run. Which makes my example above less than 1600 for QC and 3 gears versus 2200+ for a 9".

Also he told me that the all aluminum QC isnt any lighter than a 9" so there is no advantage there either, plus it still takes more power to turn them. The biggest advantage for most racers would be the cost savings in gears and also convenience,

brownstone
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 284
posted February 29, 2004 08:19 AM  
Well it certainly sounds like the QC will cure everything that ails ya maybe even world hunger, yall need to run out and buy a half dozen or so.

Last time I check they are still not legal in IMCA, UMP, or any other sanctioning body other than NARA, which no one on this thread has even said that they would run.

I suggest that yall consult your local promoter and the sanctioning bodies and get this rule changed.

Heck with the Gigantic Amounts of cash we will all save, we will all be running out to buy a new enclosed trailer.

cant wait to get mine !

Racer111
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 259
posted February 29, 2004 12:45 PM  
QC will be legal soon..count on it.

modracr41
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 130
posted March 03, 2004 05:17 PM  
Racer111, I just sold my 9" and 4 gears and bought a new winters q/c. The question I have now is when is this going to be legal so I can start saving money? My daughter's college education is banking on it.

graham jackson
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 42
posted March 03, 2004 06:21 PM  
Now if you would only get the coilovers too then you could retire in Bermuda while your paying for that college tuition.

Racer111
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 259
posted March 03, 2004 07:15 PM  
UMP WILL GO TO QC NEXT YEAR THEN MAYBE COILOVERS.START GETTING THE PRICE OF A MOD DOWN.

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