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Author Topic:   engine rules for '04
jeff
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 17
posted October 22, 2003 06:02 PM  
Has anyone ever ran laps with t/c and without to see what it is worth a lap. I read an article that said it really wasn't worth much to give you an advantage.

Wauge28
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 262
posted October 22, 2003 08:04 PM  
I have heard many people say that is makes a bad driver good. An average driver better and a good driver the same. In other words,the faster you are,the less it helps. Advanced drivers already have a good feel for knowing when to feather the throttle. Watch for the guy who normally runs in the back of the pack and all of a sudden, is in the hunt.

Here is a small hint for your tech's...take a magnet and ask the driver if you can run it over his MSD box while the car is running. IF...he lets you,listen for an increase or decrease in RPM. Test two, run a magnet over the box when it isn't running and listen for a very very slight beep from inside of the box. Most people wouldn't care if you run a magnet over thier MSD box...if they *****...you know the deal.

lucky13
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 180
posted October 26, 2003 08:08 PM  
Wauge- is UMP trying to make rules against TC? Wissota is right now, but they don't know what to do. My chassis builder is on the Wissota board and is in charge of TC rules suggestions. He has called around and accumulated about 200 pages of descriptions from manufacterers, TC products, and different styles. As far as I can tell, there is no way to keep it out. I was reading some of this stuff, and these companies go a long way to keep there stuff stealth. TC is available for absolutely ANY ignition setup, and will be nearly impossible to detect.

They have had many suggestions on how to detect TC.

Tire temps. They have said the a car with much cooler tires post feature would be suspect. This works badly against me as we always have cool tires and don't run it. Hard to tear a guys car apart and call him a cheater because he spends hours and hours on setup.

Ignition claim by racers. They started with this, but don't know what price to put on ignitions. $200? $500? I don't know about you, but I would be happy to sell my DUI fo $500.

In response to this claim thinking, they thought exchange plus less money maybe. I said great as I think I can stay on the lead lap with a stock HEI, and then I can buy a complete MSD setup for a couple hundred bucks, right? I wouldn't do it anyway, but you get my point, right?

What do you do? Make it so you can only claim similar/same setups? Then if the guy is running a Mopar or Ford he is unclaimable? Or even MSD vs. Accel vs. Crane, etc...

They talked about spec ignition. This will open the door to lawsuits (Ex:Ernie Brookins-tranny-Wissota and IMCA paid on this one). Also, if they say MSD only, you can get it in an MSD box. You can get it in anything (DUI, Crane, Accel, etc...).

Swap before the feature. I love taking my ignition out 60 times a year. Where do you stop? Distributor? Coil? Wiring harness? It is so small, it could be anywhere. I doesn't have to be mounted in the box to work. There are setups that connect with and alligator clip on the igniton lead.

In the paperwork my chassis guy received, there was a page from a TC manufacterer that made fun of Winston Cup tech. He used fiber optic wiring smaller than human hair and sandwiched his chip (less than 1/16th of an inch square) in a carbon fiber dash panel. WC tech sawed this guys dash in to 1/8 inch squares and didn't find it. I think WC tech is probably better than most of us see on Saturday night. If they can't find it, how will our tech guys?

They talked about legalizing it. The biggest down side here is it would be hard for someone to get into a Wissota mod from IMCA/UMP/whatever thinking that they had to have this to be competitive. To many guys TC is some super expensive voodoo. Be real guys, you all have probably raced against it sometime. Many of the IMCA guys around here aren't that interested in Wissota because they think they will need to spend so much on their engines to compete. Imagine if they had to add another $2500-6000 to that for TC. The class would die. There are few among us that would put too much into a racing program if we figured we had very little chance of winning or we were at a huge disadvantage as soon as we got on the track.

Of all the info I have read, everybody still says the best TC teching devices are your eyes and ears. I told them to go with a promoter claim on ignitions. If they think you have it, they can take your stuff for some $'s and send it in for testing. If it is legit, they can sell it back to you. This would keep that racers from claiming for the wrong reasons. Only problem is, the promoters won't do it. They don't want to make anybody mad and lose cars.

I have no good solutions for this problem. I posted earlier this year in the IMCA vs. TC post that I was unaware of TC with the Hoosier tires. That was in June or July. In October, I know there is TC in Wissota, and I race against it weekly (sometimes weakly..lol).

Anyone have any ideas?

I think I may have made it through this whole post without complaining about IMCA...WOW!


superdave
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 280
posted October 26, 2003 08:16 PM  
My complaint about traction control is it robs the drivers with good talent of the wins they deserve. When the cars and parts you buy become more important than the people in them we might as well race RC cars. Racing is aboutthe people not the parts.

Wauge28
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 262
posted October 27, 2003 08:54 PM  
Lucky13, I agree. There are systems out there that are nearly undetectable. For "most" Saturday Night Mod racers, I think based on cost, the ignition based stuff is the most widely used...or abused.

Super simple fix. USE ONLY STOCK HEI DISTRIBUTERS. Any drvier can sway any dist. for any others in the field. Exchange plus $ 25.00 for the labor of swapping.

The rule would allow aftermarket cap and modual but a fear of losing it to a stock modual nd cap night after night might keep people from spending more than $ 90 on a stock NAPA reman.

This might solve a couple problems. If a dist. drops off after 6500 rpm's, it might stop people from building the high winding, high dollar motors. Next we work on a restrictor plate and we might not all spend 15 to 20 K on motors to win $ 500. ???

madmodshoe
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 195
posted October 28, 2003 01:40 AM  
Tc is virually undeTECHtable. There are company's out there that can and will install it into your cage with fiberoptics. TC can and is regularly beaten. To beat it you have to be perfect for twenty five laps. The guy with it doesn't. Most systems out there today can be set-up to only reduce 10-20% of the power which is unnoticable to the ear because usually when it's working you are acclerating, not WOT.
Restricter plates don't work to curb costs, just speeds. How much does DEI spend each year on plate programs? If you really want to cut engine costs then go to a spec 1" header primary! That will get rid of the compression and the cubes all in the same swipe! If it cannot exhale, then it don't matter whats trying to pump it out.

dirtracer14
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1261
posted October 28, 2003 09:30 PM  
Madmodshoe i hear you on the smaller pipe deal it would be easy to swap if you went to a track that you didnt have to. I do think they are going to do somthing with the motors soon i just do not want to see a restrictor.... i dont have the $$ to spend to get the motor just right!! Plus with the smaller pipes its like puking threw a staw!!!!

Camaro_Dude_1991
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 104
posted October 29, 2003 10:50 AM  
if imca does not go to a points style ignition with a mechanical drive tach we are all in trouble. i know davis claims to have it for points style ignitions, but i bet when you see it, if he even has one, that its a electronic ignition in a point style housing. he can not change the timing electronically on something that fires mechanically.

lucky13
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 180
posted October 29, 2003 06:48 PM  
I agree madmodshoe. TC is and will be regularly beaten. Also, TC will not solve problems with a bad setup. From what I understand, if your car is tight, TC will make it really tight as you can't slip the tires as easily to turn. In contrast, if your car is loose, it will still be slow with TC as it can only apply power to the available traction. I am frustrated by it, but I am not mad enough to sell the whole operation over it. I always figure that if I beat the guys that have it, they must really feel stupid.

#13 mod
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 72
posted October 29, 2003 08:36 PM  
OK OK, T/C......It's starting to seem to me that this hole "t/c" thing is becoming an excuess for the guys not winning. Just wandering what others thought of that. If your fast your fast, not everyone can drive a car deal with it. Even if you have the best of every thing on the car, it still dosen't mean that you can drive. Look at it like this, very few guys win every night. If they do it's probably because they don't have any competition.

LAWEST
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 30
posted November 06, 2003 09:13 PM  
All going to Vertex magneto next year to eliminate traction control!

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