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Author Topic:   Quick Change Rear End
hogracer
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 34
posted January 19, 2003 11:05 PM  
How about them letting the mods run a quick change? I think that it would be cheaper in the long run, rather than having to have several 3rd members laying around at a cost of 400. to 600.


Anthony USA-1
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 16
posted January 20, 2003 12:36 PM  
There is a group in Pa. trying to get it passed. SMODA, or Small Block Modified Owner and Driver Association has been working with tracks and the YORK Triathlon Series, to get the switch made.

I believe it would lower the cost. Gears for the Q.C. are cheaper. You use and lose less Gear oil when changing gears. Easier gears to change (Helps the traveling racer.) Replacable snouts...(we have had to trash numerous 9 inch rear ends because the axle snouts were ruined, and not replacable.)

There are pro's and con's to this. I am not going to lie, and say that there are no set backs to the Q.C. However, I think that the pro's outweigh the con's.

What does everyone else think?

racer17j
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 5390
posted January 20, 2003 02:49 PM  
I am all for it, but you will have bunch of small minded IMCA people say its to expensive and it is for the rich people. It tends to scare people away even though it makes so much sense. Maybe if Winters gave IMCA some money, they would make it legal.

Racer X
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 256
posted January 20, 2003 07:17 PM  
I would be for it.We have a quickchange that has been sitting in our shop since 95.We have nothing to run it in since we quit running late model.

dadwhisky78
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 21
posted January 20, 2003 08:06 PM  
Lots of talk within AMRA about making quick changes legal tha past couple of years, but no rules change as of yet. It would be nice for the guy who travels or for a guy like me who does not have a big crew to help get the car ready from night to night when going to different size tracks.

runllm2
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 17
posted January 21, 2003 12:58 AM  
I just bought a 9" brand new. It so far has costed me $1400 steel hubs, with one set of gears. I also bought a winters magnesium sprint (95 lbs.) rear end for the tar car this year. It costed me 1400 with out hubs. I got the steel lensing hub kit just like scp ones, pair $600. $290 dollars for the gears and axel shafts. Total of $2290 for the rear end if you go with the aluminum (115lbs.)take off about $100 and if you put the tubes in yourself -150 So you could get a QC for about $2040. These are both with out brackets. I can tell you which one I will have longer! You can rebuild QC as easily as a center section from a 9". Plus if you bend a tube or break a bell it can a be replaced. How many gear set can you buy for around $700 with a 9". How long does it take to change gears? I also have a small crew mostly consisting of Me Myself and I. With two cars and 3 nights of racing. This dosn't leave me with much time to swap out gears in my 9". So I only race one night with the mod. I think that we need to start at the promoter level and have them start to push the Idea of running QC's thus alowing the poeple who don't have time or to "lazy" to change gears or what ever to go to more tracks like theirs. Bring new cars in = more fans = more money for the promoter. He might like that idea. I like to say that I have about 10 fans. These people will follow me to what ever track I race at. If I don't go they don't go. Everyone has people to follow just them. Who would want to watch 15 cars race for the cash or would you want to watch 30 cars race for the cash? P.S. No wise cracks about my 10 fans either!

mod4
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 223
posted January 21, 2003 03:16 PM  
We have been running Q/C's in Florida mods since 1997, a few places make you carry 25# (same places make Berts and Brinns carry another 25#). Since we have to weigh 2500 I don't think 25# is a big deal - my pavement mod had a Q/C and my dirt car doesn't.

outlawstock17
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1363
posted January 21, 2003 04:41 PM  
i believe a ford 9" will rob less power than a quick change with that extra set of gears. and more rotating weight.

dadwhisky78
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 21
posted January 21, 2003 05:07 PM  
There are pros and cons to both rearends. I believe that a sanctioning body could make both the 9 inch and the quick change legal. Then let the owner of the car choose which style he wishes to put in his car.

LAYNE_Trans
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 98
posted January 21, 2003 10:26 PM  
what you guys fail to see and understand is this, the reason the quickchanges are laying around so cheap is there is no current large scale market for them.

Say IMCA passed the rule to allow them now the 10,000 modified cars that run under the rules (sanctioned and non-sanctioned) all can use them. Not all will run them, but the mass will. Well, the one I have just got worth a whole bunch more money.

Add to this the fact that none of the quick change makers combined, are likely setup to provide 10,000 units in a single winter with the stroke of the rule pen, and my extra quickchange just got even more valuable. The used ones will go fast, the new ones will clear out of the suppliers and the manufacturers now have a serious back order...prices go up on available units new or used folks.

If the smaller local sanctions allow them, it is not quite as bad as there are not a great number of units required to meet the demand. Guys can buy from outside their area and still get a good price since the guy they are buying from is still in the "don't need" column.

Same mess IMCA had with the carb rule i nhobbies or street stock, they were scarce towards race season but the difference there was the guys had to have them as it was not an option, it was required.

fordsblow
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 46
posted January 22, 2003 03:43 AM  
Hate to tell ya, but a new Bert, Brinn or Falcon still costs the same now if not a little less then last year when they were not legal in IMCA. Yes used ones are worth more because of the increase in demand for them, but I would still happily buy a used one and put the savings toward tires and spares.
Also IF IMCA put in their rules that in 2006 QC's were legal then there would be time for the manufacturers to stock up on them. I know the had a two or three year phase out of the bell mounted pumps and stuff, so it would not be that difficult to phase in a QC.
Ken

HarrisMod#30
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 353
posted January 22, 2003 07:27 AM  
Have to agree with you ford that his theory is totaly wrong about the price, just picked up a new Brinn with a coupler for 1,200 and just picked up a new falcon with coupler for $1,000, didnt see the price shoot up one bit since IMCA legalized them. It would be nice for the quick change to be legal!

mod4
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 223
posted January 22, 2003 07:09 PM  
The idea that making Q/C's legal would raise the price is funny.

So the more people that buy "Layne" trannys, the more expensive they are ? Well, we all better stop buying them, I want the price to drop.

I will also ask the SprintCars and Late models to stop running Q/C's too. Then I guess they will be free

runllm2
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 17
posted January 22, 2003 09:52 PM  
Just talked to a rep at winters. He thought that the total number of mods is closer to 40,000. I'm not sure if that was all mods in the US or just imca. Anyway he said that they would need just over a year notice to produce enough with the current number of people and tooling. He did say that if they could get a comitment from Imca or other large groups that they could go ahead and get better tooling and more labor. He also implied that with better tooling or process that they could be built cheaper (less expensive). Which might or might not translate to a better deal for us.

HRT187
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 265
posted January 22, 2003 10:53 PM  
We run quick changes and they are way cheaper from EVERY aspect. Of course we still have to have a 9" for certain tracks so the real bite is the difference in rules.

old hippie xx
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 12
posted January 23, 2003 04:04 PM  
i think the Qcs would be a good idea. let the 9 in guys run their 9s make it car owners choice. it would make running different tracks much easier.

PEDDLER
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 446
posted January 23, 2003 07:15 PM  
Another thread states that 52% race only 1 night a week and another 34% race 2 nights. Just how much would would a Q/C really save the average 86% of the racers. It's the 14% that's left that are the point chasers that really want a Q/C.

Just my opinion
Jim

zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1875
posted January 24, 2003 08:06 AM  
i love the quick change idea. it would be great. even if i race one time a week i sometimes like a different gear for a diferent motor. i like to rev 355 higher than 383, also sometimes in dryslick nights i would like to have a little different gear or how many out there have wanted a different gear from heat to main event. most any guys i know like to run different gears sometimes even at the same track. also a quick change has so many more options as far as gear choice so you could get it closer to your desired rpm easier.

zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1875
posted January 24, 2003 08:17 AM  
i have a question. how hard is it to change the tubes on a quick change? i have heard alot of them press in the tubes and if you bend one up you can just press it out and a new one presses in? that would be better than if you really mess up a 9 inch housing and have to get a whole new one or a new tubewelded on. just another reason for a quickchange but i dont know for sure

Gene
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 396
posted January 25, 2003 03:11 PM  
Not to mention old farts like me cant hardly pick up a 9"pig and put it in! I'm for the Q-C rear.

HRT187
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 265
posted January 25, 2003 07:55 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by PEDDLER:
Another thread states that 52% race only 1 night a week and another 34% race 2 nights. Just how much would would a Q/C really save the average 86% of the racers. It's the 14% that's left that are the point chasers that really want a Q/C.

Just my opinion
Jim


I dunno about you peddler, but when I change engines I typically change gears too. So two tracks and two engines can be four 9" gear sets. Now throw a DPI differential in the mix... Not to mention the hassles that they enlist you for.

One set of rules I race by still has a 9" rule, so I've got a 9" car and I hardly ever take it anywhere because I hate changing it so bad.

PEDDLER
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 446
posted January 26, 2003 09:24 AM  
Well I may fire some's rocket but here goes.

A. We are once a week racers.....we don't change engines from track to track and anyone that does has too much time on their hands and very little family life.

B. Even if we race a double,,,an engine change is not necessary,,,in this area all tracks are mostly the same size.

C. The cost factor..Even the 9" has gotten with the multiple gear choices ( we have 4 chunks set up) out of sight for most unless you have a sugar daddy some where in the wood pile.

My whole point is that modified racing has and is quickly going beyond the reach of most working stiffs that like to race. Adding the Q/C is not helping this AT ALL. Why do you see the influx of the limited mods growing so much. I'll tell you,,,build at home,,,stock components,,,limited engine rules,,,DOT tires,,,NO fancy suspensions,,AND NO Q/C's.

Come on guys,,,look at what this class has become and where it is going. Does it show signs of a Hav-A_Tampa series and look at what has hapened to those cars.

I also realise that if the rule is allowed it is only an option and is an allowed part that one does not have to run.

Just my opinion.
Jim

Anthony USA-1
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 16
posted January 26, 2003 11:07 PM  
As I have said before, the SMODA organization is looking to legalize Quick Change rearends. However, I forgot to mention that FORD 9 INCH rearends will still be legal!!! Therefore, the guys that don't want to switch, will not be forced...even though they should, in my opinon, use quick changes. The point of keeping both legal is to not divide the division.

There is no distinct advantage of having a quick change...except for matching the gear ratios a little better for the track. People always argue this point with me.
They say, "Quick changes will give the guys running them an advantage over me with my 9 inch Ford, because they can gear their cars better for the races being that gears are cheaper, and you can afford more gear selection."

I reply with a question...Why wouldn't you want to have your car set up as best as you could using the Quick Change? I also point out that the reason people running quick changes are sometimes faster are because the gears are cheaper than a 9 inch FORD!!!

My point...even in the arguements against quick changes, some of the main reasons to legalize them shine through! They are cheaper, and allow you to match the gear ratio to the track much better. Just my 2 cents.

HRT187
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 265
posted January 27, 2003 01:49 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by PEDDLER:
Well I may fire some's rocket but here goes.

A. We are once a week racers.....we don't change engines from track to track and anyone that does has too much time on their hands and very little family life.

B. Even if we race a double,,,an engine change is not necessary,,,in this area all tracks are mostly the same size.

C. The cost factor..Even the 9" has gotten with the multiple gear choices ( we have 4 chunks set up) out of sight for most unless you have a sugar daddy some where in the wood pile.

My whole point is that modified racing has and is quickly going beyond the reach of most working stiffs that like to race. Adding the Q/C is not helping this AT ALL. Why do you see the influx of the limited mods growing so much. I'll tell you,,,build at home,,,stock components,,,limited engine rules,,,DOT tires,,,NO fancy suspensions,,AND NO Q/C's.

Come on guys,,,look at what this class has become and where it is going. Does it show signs of a Hav-A_Tampa series and look at what has hapened to those cars.

I also realise that if the rule is allowed it is only an option and is an allowed part that one does not have to run.

Just my opinion.
Jim



Well what I said was that if you have 2 engines for a year that aren't the same then you might need to change gears. I have a 400 and a 355, the 400 likes a lot taller gear than the 355. So 2 tracks, 2 engines, 4 gears.

If you think that stock parts are cheaper then I don't know what to tell you. I remember having to use stock outer tie rods that were $35/ea and bent all the time. QC's save money if you have more than 2 9" gears in my opinion, and the time left from changing gears can be spent with your family.

UDTRA is a far cry from mods + QC's. Those guys have engines that cost more than my whole car, 90 tires and 50 wheels, $250 shocks, and I'm sure every other interchangable part in the book.

Why are limited mods with stock parts more popular? Probably because the rules prohibit a lot of adjustability which makes for easy and close competition which is cheap-entry fun. I don't own one, but a speculate they are just as expensive to crash.

I wasn't trying to start a peeing contest, just wanted to say that running once a week it's always a 1 gear deal. I've ran 3 different gears at the same 3/8th track depending on setup and engine. I have 6 gears setup for 2 cars 3 of them with gold traks, that's expensive.

George Gilliland
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 92
posted January 27, 2003 02:43 PM  
So you would like a quick change? How about let us get rite of the transmissions all together. How about loosening up the engine rules and get rite of the claim. How about getting bigger tires, something with some grip? I got the solution for you, you just have to limit the engine to 410 cu in. Yes you can run aluminum everything. Tell Steve hi for me!

66jj
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 823
posted January 27, 2003 06:44 PM  
I just read this whole post there are a lot of ?s asked and unanswered,

Not in order, but Ill try!!!

To change tubes you simply loosen the jamb bolts and remove them, anyone can do it, they just need to go in straight.

Gears can be as expensive as 100.00 for a good set, 30 dollar sets might make it for a while, I have had no luck with anything under 60 bucks.

Q change does take some horsepower, most common guess I have heard is 25 hp!!!!!!!!

Who cares about the price of a used one going up, they are around 1300 new minus hubs, and better deals can be had, you can buy tubes to use your exhisting hubs...

If a person wants to run a q change they shouldnt be penalized, last I looked they were heavier than a 9"!!

One problem might be spool only req. in IMCA, it would be hard to police.

IMCA might as well allow these in mods, they are allowing the internal clutch trannys..

HRT187
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 265
posted January 27, 2003 08:17 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by George Gilliland:
So you would like a quick change? How about let us get rite of the transmissions all together. How about loosening up the engine rules and get rite of the claim. How about getting bigger tires, something with some grip? I got the solution for you, you just have to limit the engine to 410 cu in. Yes you can run aluminum everything. Tell Steve hi for me!

I don't plan on being able to afford a sprint car nor do I think that QCs will open the flood gates to that level of cars. Thanks for the pessimistic view on a good conversation though.


Those rules have merit for keeping the cars less expensive and slower. Bigger tires alone would allow more engine to be useful and drive the costs of a car way up. I'm not looking for performance, I'm looking for cost savings. Those racing transmissions are just the opposite, they are a performance advantage, they are more expensive than a well prepared M22, and they aren't something that the average racer can fix at home.


A QC on the other hand is not a performance advantage. Just like 66jj said, it's heavier, has more rotating mass, more parts, easier repairs, and if you can and do run a DPI diff the cost is way way way cheaper.


racer17j
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 5390
posted January 28, 2003 12:32 PM  
I feel that a Q-change is the next thing that needs to be allowed in. IMCA is finely noticing that these are race cars. We are not racing street stocks. Some of you should go back to them though. When we run them in the 80's & 90's in 2800lbs. sportsman cars, we never bent one one single time. Even though we had some very bad wrecks. I was talking to a freind of mine a couple of years ago, and he said that Brett Root told him Winters offerd to sell a base line Alluminum center with steel tubes rear for 800.00 bucks. They unfortunatly turned them down. The only advatage to runing a Q-change rear is that if some thing goes wrong in the heat race I can still change gears and fix my car before the feature like every ealse that wants to win. I dont care if you run one motor fore 3 years at one track. If you want to win races you are going to change gears every night from wet to tacky to slick conditions.



ncrdbl1
Dirt Newbie

Total posts: 4
posted March 07, 2005 10:30 PM  
by arguing for the quick change some of given the most important reason for not legalizing them. one person made the statement that if they get to the track and it is a little slick they could change the gear to get it to do better. in a 9IN you will have something like 20 to 25 points different between sets of gears. with a quick change you can change the ratio by as little as 3 to 6 points. so someone could drop a $20,000 to $30,000 motor in a modified and use the large number of gear ratios available in the quick change to hook up the bigger motor. with the limited number of ratios available in the 9 in, this fine tuning of the chassis is not available and it would be useless to spend the money on such a big motor. i know some of you are going to try and blow smoke up p[eople *** by saying the claim rule will control engine cost. we all know it doesn't. people are already spending $15,000 on motors without fear of being claimed.

sdracer12
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 180
posted March 07, 2005 11:39 PM  
I have a couple of questions. What about limiting the gear choices in the QC to only the ratios available in a 9 inch? This would help keep the playing field more level between the have's and the don't have's.

Also, will a quick change rearend bolt in place in your chassis? It won't fit in mine because of the longer length at the rear. I would have to have some bars on my chassis changed, and probably need a different fuel cell, battery box, etc. Does anyone know if there is a smaller version of the QC than what is used in the late models now? Can I still use my Grand National hubs on a steel tube QC?

I have 6 sets of 9 inch gears set up and in the trailer now. It would be nice to not have to carry all the weight around. But, can I sell my gear sets and not lose a bunch of money switching over to a QC?

Kromulous
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 796
posted March 08, 2005 05:57 AM  
I wouldnt have any issues with QC's being legal, long as there steel tubed, and no locker type diffs. As well, both the 9" and the QC would need to be legal to run.

Gear ratio's i dont really worry about. Let em run whatever.

Used QC's prices, per the guys post above, would probaly go up. Right now at some auctions i went to you could buy a used for under $500 bucks, if the mods could run them, that would go up. Simple, supply and demand, but thats concerning used stuff, not new.

Plus, there is an upside for 9" guys. Once all these high dollar teams buy there QC's. They will probaly sell all there 9" parts, then we can come in scoop them up cheap.

I would stay with 9" for awhile, we already got them and our money is needed in other areas. Plus there not slower, so why change if you dont have to? if you got a couple grand burning a hole in your pocket, go buy one, if not run what you got.

Coates
Dirt Newbie

Total posts: 1
posted March 08, 2005 11:43 AM  
quote:
Originally posted by ncrdbl1:
by arguing for the quick change some of given the most important reason for not legalizing them. one person made the statement that if they get to the track and it is a little slick they could change the gear to get it to do better. in a 9IN you will have something like 20 to 25 points different between sets of gears. with a quick change you can change the ratio by as little as 3 to 6 points. so someone could drop a $20,000 to $30,000 motor in a modified and use the large number of gear ratios available in the quick change to hook up the bigger motor. with the limited number of ratios available in the 9 in, this fine tuning of the chassis is not available and it would be useless to spend the money on such a big motor.

I disagree. The quick change's finer gear ratio selection will benefit the car with a less powerful engine more, since an optimized gear ratio can be selected to better keep the engine in the power band. The more powerful engine can more easily overcome a gear ratio that's a little off.

wtbrlr3
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 6
posted March 09, 2005 01:49 AM  
Am I the only person that ever said I'd go race there but I don't have gears or want to buy gears for that track? It's hard to tell the wife I'm going to spend $400 to $600 on gears for one race to win $100 to $450.

The pros to a the Q change are:
Every part is replaceable
Gear changes are quick (quick change)
Ratios are fine tuneable
The aluminum parts are repairable
Long run cheaper
Most brackets fit same as 9"
Repairs can be made by racer

The cons:
Intital cost is more
***** if you have all the gears for a 9" you need
Little more rotating wieght
Pinion mounts different

There are more then what I listed but these are the basics. Im for the quick change but I also agree with the guys that say everytime a rule is changed it cost me more money.

A&M Motorsports
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 117
posted March 09, 2005 04:42 AM  
There are always the good , the bad and the ugly. The only modification to the chassis that I know of is you will have to relocate the panhard bar mount forward some if you're running the bar up front. The distance frome the centerline of the axle to the pinion mount on a quick change is longer than a 9".

------------------
Artie Perilloux
A & M Motorsports

Dman
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 270
posted March 09, 2005 07:43 AM  
I don't know what chassis you guys are running but a quick change won't fit in my mod without hitting the fuel cell.
Dman

chapa73
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 169
posted March 09, 2005 07:44 AM  
I dont see a problem with a quick change if they run close to the same ratios as a ford 9"/The only reason I say that is earler in the post a guy said gears are more like 100 each,He stated that the cheaper ones didnt last so. If I race on track,as a racer im gonna wanna change gears for heat race,have a set for a B feature if needed and the main,theres about $300,about the same,no real savings,limit the ratios to a ford 9" then you see the savings.

QC with steel tubes.

dbradley
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 251
posted March 09, 2005 03:50 PM  
Hey guys,,Opinion of a QC DIRT mod guy...We truely don't change gears that much,,,All we change them for is to keep our motor in a (sweet spot) RPM range....We carry 3 sets above and below our typical gear ratio wire tied together in a milk crate(lets see ya do that with the 9"centers)
We just bought a fully refurbished rear for $1000 with $500 worth of new birdcages on it. so heck yeah they will save ya money.
D

sdracer12
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 180
posted March 09, 2005 10:10 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by Dman:
I don't know what chassis you guys are running but a quick change won't fit in my mod without hitting the fuel cell.
Dman

Exactly what I was wondering... lol

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