Visit The Dirt Forum for More Information

Author Topic:   where is he cheating?
speedyd1
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 170
posted July 03, 2005 07:06 AM  
we have been chasing this one certain car for what seems to be forever. he beats us and i dont mean by a nose eithor. i have as fine a driver and equipment that money can buy. we have won as many as 29 races in a year but just cant quite get past this one.
this guy is literally running away from the field. we are running all the good stuff. i own a machine shop and have only the best parts top to bottom. ultra light everywhere.
my question is - "is it possible that this guy is running some sort of limited slip differential or something that would give him such a huge advantage over the feild?
i have explored the idea of him running large displacement motors etc but so far no one can convince me that he has more than i do. and no he isnt a better driver. our driver and he have competed against each other for years with us usually getting the upper hand. he has done something and im not quite sure just what. any ideas?
im running 2.3 stock stroke - lightweight billet crank, 5.83 rods, ultra lightweight pistons. zero decked, canton pan and windage tray, d port open chamber head cut .150 - ported and polished and flowed on our bench, big valves, crane roller cam .560 lift, esslinger intake w stage 3 carb. 2.14 2nd gear with 3.27 rear. car handles like a dream and driver can pull away from field but cant catch this guy. seems like this guy never spins a tire anywhere. whatta ya think guys?

bigcityracer
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 431
posted July 03, 2005 08:27 AM  
I would work on softer spring setup get the traction. I have found a great setup for my Celica and it run the like the guy in front of you. Also stock that motor, run a about 6,600 rpm and you will be surprised. You will need the right cam for this.

speedyd1
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 170
posted July 03, 2005 10:02 AM  
we are getting plenty of traction. 3 link in rear with j bar and lots of anti squat. this car is unbeatable every where else. cant figure it out??????? this motor is a stud. been dyno'd so many times i quite counting.
this guy has to be doing something different.
the rules call for a stock rearend, must be locked.thats it. i was just wandering if he might have slipped something in on us.

b4racing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 626
posted July 03, 2005 01:29 PM  
how much ponies are you putting out with the d-port.

speedyd1
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 170
posted July 03, 2005 02:44 PM  
if i remember correctly it was around 200 or so. i'll look for the dyno sheets. some will tell you they are making more but i would doubt it unless they are running arca heads or KRP blocks or something.doesnt seem much when you figure the kind of money we have invested in it. has anyone run a posi track or limited slip from from one of the 5.0's?

b4racing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 626
posted July 03, 2005 11:30 PM  
check your pm and yes I run a posi but I see no real gain on smaller tracks than just welding them up. Later Bobby

speedyd1
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 170
posted July 04, 2005 04:25 PM  
B4 - i hear he does real good things with those. we have reached similar figures with this setup and other cams but decided to take advantage of the rod /stroke ratio and went with a more torque oriented motor. i have the ability to try just about everything out there and have in fact tried the same thing you suggested but it didnt show any real advantages one way or another. this particular time i just happened to have it on the shelf and having done the bench work on it i decided to go with it. thanks for your reply.

racerman707
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 374
posted July 04, 2005 07:19 PM  
Can you post your rules?

speedyd1
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 170
posted July 04, 2005 08:32 PM  
its open season on the motor. only no aluminum heads. must be a stock stroke crank - 2.3 or 2.5. 1 lb per cc. stock suspension up front and anything goes in the rear. 8" wheels and tires. rearend must be locked and must be stock.(whatever that means). so i built a tube chassis with mustang 2 control arm front end with 3 link rear and a fox body mustang 3 sheet metal. can you say stock appearing late model. there are obviously other rules but nothing so vague. you should have seen the tech guys face when i showed up with a scat crank and wiseco and crower rotating assembly. he didnt quite know how to take it. it also says any clutch and flywheel. so i stock a ram cone style clutch in it.it weighs about 4.5 lbs total. there are very few people around with a better car or driver. i just cant figure out how this guy is leaving us. i mean leaving too. he typically gets us in the corners where his car seems to just take off when all the others are setting and turning. thats why i asked about the limited slip. somewhere he is limiting his slippage.
and no he isnt running less motor or gear than us.

b4racing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 626
posted July 04, 2005 08:36 PM  
where are you from and who is the driver if you want to pm me that is ok.

speedyd1
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 170
posted July 05, 2005 02:01 PM  
no can do - some things are best left unsaid.

dnswwood
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 8
posted July 05, 2005 04:53 PM  
Maybe he is using a trac loc as seen here at summit racing's site http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?Ntt=pwt-1830-lr&Ntk=KeywordSearch&DDS=1&searchinresults=false&N=0&target=egnsearch.asp

speedyd1
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 170
posted July 05, 2005 07:02 PM  
thats kinda what i was thinking. maybe we'll just tear him down this week and see.

juliaferrell
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 370
posted July 05, 2005 09:26 PM  
Tear him down? That's candyass. Are you picking up the throttle at the same point as they are? Someone that sprints the corner is going to outrun an asphalt racer hands down.

If your standing on the flagmans stand plotting the centerline of the car is yours turned when his is? Is he just making the straightaways longer with better handling?

If your car turns like his and he pulls off you need more engine my friend, unless the driver detects wheelspin.

I can't see your combination making gobs of power.

speedyd1
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 170
posted July 06, 2005 07:54 AM  
candy *** ? thats an interesting way of putting it. i'm not so much interested in finding him illegal as finding out exactly what it is he is doing better than us. of course maybe you cant understand that with your apparent level of comprehension that youve shown in your previous post. and as far as your prognosis on the engine goes.
you apparently dont know as much as you might think. i have been building these motors for over 30 years. i have all the latest building equipment and certifications to go with it. i have wet flow benches, cnc mills, all sunnen equipment. i also own a performance warehouse and have just about everything one could want to run and have tried them all. untill you have the talent or the financial capabilities to compare i would suggest that you read and learn more before making such a statement. my chassis dyno doesnt lie like your engine builder.
anybody can make statements as to what they think it is doing but i can tell you that i have never had a single car come in here in which their so called power figures match what the dyno actually shows. inflated numbers are just that. inflated and full of hot air.this guy is doing something and i want to know what it is.plain and simple.

bigcityracer
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 431
posted July 06, 2005 04:24 PM  
Putting out the most horsepower or the most torque on a dyno does not mean ****. You need to test and tune your changes on the track period. I see many cars at my track over powering there cars. If you can't get the most of what you have at the earliest point on the track you will be slower. Everyone says the person beating them is cheating and thats wrong. I see may cars at my track with illegal equipment and mine does not. But guess what they say I'm cheating.

What do you think the guys behind you think????

PinThunderStang
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 89
posted July 06, 2005 05:43 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by bigcityracer:
Everyone says the person beating them is cheating and thats wrong. I see may cars at my track with illegal equipment and mine does not. But guess what they say I'm cheating.

What do you think the guys behind you think????


100% agreement here. I enjoy beating the cars that cheat with my legal car, its more enjoyable I think. One thing I have learned in the last two years is CHASSIS SETUP wins races. You can have all the horses in the world but if you can't get it to the ground (or turn the car)you have nothing. I'm not saying motor doesn't help, but it isn't necessarily the most important thing. Also, aerodynamics help too, I've proven it.

[This message has been edited by PinThunderStang (edited July 06, 2005).]

dirttracker98
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 284
posted July 07, 2005 02:21 AM  
traction control?from the way you are both spending,that could be a possibility.and if the track tech man ain't a wizard,he'll never find it!

speedyd1
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 170
posted July 07, 2005 06:59 AM  
our tech guy is about useless. if you dont bring it up he doesnt check. we also have a rule that you cant protest the leader unless you protest all others in front of you. so if you finish 3 or 4 then you cant even protest the winner unless you have serious money. when you get a couple of them good ol boys who are buddies in front of you then you have no alternatives.
i have been filming the races lately and he definitely isnt spinning anywhere. you can see in the corners where it looks as if the outside tire quits spinning and the inside tries to start turning the car outside a bit.
thats why i started thinking he my be running some sort of limited slip or ratchet type rear. you have to see it in slow motion to detect it. as far as legality goes we all try to be as legal as possible. we do interpret the rules as broadly as possible. this class is mostly late model type cars anyway. so the money issue is kinda irrelevent. i often times wonder just what we are attempting to accomplish by spending this kind of money and it often seems a bit rediculous but sometimes the urge to win is greater than my ability to reason. after 8000.00 and 140 plus hours of labor we have invested - i still want to kick this guys a**.

juliaferrell
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 370
posted July 07, 2005 08:37 AM  
I don't give a hoot what kind of equipment and finances you have.... I'm just informing you from experience your little engine is lacking hp if your picking up the throttle when he is...........I know dyno hp on these engines and 200 rwhp is ok. What is your average flow number using .050 intervals to 650 lift. What velocity/fps does the head flow.Is your head flowing in the 240's @ 28" H2O. I'm merely trying to help. What's your rpm range and what's your final ratio and rollouts.

I'm just trying to help here. I've built lots and dyno'd lots and the ones you think work sometimes don't.....Most doing these heads have far too low velocity numbers to work. Make alot of peak numbers but the average numbers are lacking. You should average 180+ cfm on a cast iron head and around 225-250 fps on 3/8 mile and any shorter track 350fps. Just my 2cents. I'm here to help. I call 2.3's little engines..no harm intended just a habit.

juliaferrell
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 370
posted July 07, 2005 08:52 AM  
And you have no clue of the resources, talent, or otherwise over here my friend. My engines ect have been torn down many times by people like you..it's really a sissy way to race. I'd rather lose.

speedyd1
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 170
posted July 07, 2005 04:59 PM  
how did we get from where is he cheating to a ****ing contest over motors?
i'll end it for you - you are the greatest. i couldnt possibly compete with you.
i am a real candy *** for wanting to know what he is doing.
does that make it all better.
anyway - i'll continue to do my thing and you can do yours. if you are as good as you claim then i commend you for all your hard work and efforts. as far as my original question goes - i still havent heard from anyone that can tell me whether or not one of these differentials could make that big of a difference. surely someone is running these in their modified mini or mini late model.

speedyd1
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 170
posted July 07, 2005 05:00 PM  
and by the way - i'd rather win.

racer30
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 20
posted July 07, 2005 07:55 PM  
your answer is no on the gear . if he is pullin ya in the straight he's got more juice. if he's leaving in the corner his setup is better than yours. it is really that simple cheating or not.if he is leaving you in the corner get in the gas sooner either keep up or turn it around then you will know. if your not drivin you are really at a disadvantage only your driver really knows. if your flat footed in the corner then you know.ya need more juice. oh well have fun tryin to get it done

juliaferrell
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 370
posted July 07, 2005 08:35 PM  
Slip differentials work on asphalt tracks the best. The tracklock types will work if you turn the car quickly and don't spend all day turning the car.........*they kickout while turning* If your track is hard and blacked over you can try the track lock but I'm sure its not going to eliminate the problem you have....The detroit lockers ect free you up so much going in a corner they are very hard to drive.......I've always had problems of tightening a car on entry enough.

Is the problem the same on tacky as slicked over?

speedyd1
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 170
posted July 08, 2005 06:47 AM  
we hold our own on the tacky track early on. can run with anybody. track usually dries out and somewhat slick. not black yet. it also usually gets torn up by the "big" cars. i keep watching this guy on video and the more i watch the more i see the outside tire "unlock". it would seem to me that when the track dries up to the point that it is almost asphalt that he begins to takeoff. i have tried springs, shocks, gear, etc. and have only made little progress on lap times. we try to keep very good notes on everything. the videos i refer to come from inside the car so you can see quite clearly what "seems" to be going on. at least for a few laps anyway.

dnswwood
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 8
posted July 08, 2005 07:22 AM  
what you are describing is what i see going on here at our track.. "i keep watching this guy on video and the more i watch the more i see the outside tire "unlock". it would seem to me that when the track dries up to the point that it is almost asphalt that he begins to takeoff. i have tried springs, shocks, gear, etc"..we also made lots of spring,shock,and gear adjustments trying to get "out front" but i found out last week,overhearing a conversation in the pits, that all the cars in the front are running these tracloks and just like you describe ,when the track dries up they are gone.

Now bear in mind this was an overheard conversation so take it with a grain of salt

juliaferrell
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 370
posted July 08, 2005 12:25 PM  
What for rearend are they running?

speedyd1
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 170
posted July 08, 2005 02:50 PM  
we are running the 7.5 right now. i have a 9" on the way though. that way we can run 1 to 1 and get away from all this 2nd gear ****. rules say rearend must be stock. stock for what?????. i guess a ford rearend in a ford. we'll see what they say when they find out.

racerman707
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 374
posted July 11, 2005 06:31 PM  
Have you tried unlocking the rear? Get the left rear to stick and you'll be quicker. How do you go through the corner? On & off the gas, back and forth on the wheel, turn how far to the left how far to the right? Can you feel the car rotate going into the corner? I think just by reading the posts that he's got the handling better. I've been on both sides of this thing and I'm the last one to say anybody's cheating until I've done everything in my power to make my car faster and not slow down the other cars. What about your corner weights? I've seen cars look real good on the scales but not fall out of a tree when it gets to the track. Give us some info on your setup and I bet you'll get him.

foghorn
Dirt Newbie

Total posts: 1
posted July 11, 2005 09:39 PM  
It sounds like this guy is really under your skin. Why not just ask the guy? Are you considered a good guy among your fellow competitors or are you a jerk to other people? If you are a nice person and you befriend this guy that's kickin your **** then maybe he will let you in on what he's doing. If you are coming in second all the time then how do you think everyone else feels about you and him? You probably don't care. If you can't beat the guy fair and square then either put up with it or swallow your pride and go ask him what he's doing. Maybe you just have to accept the fact that you aren't as good as you think. That is the thing with racing...there is ALWAYS someone faster than you.

speedyd1
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 170
posted July 12, 2005 07:30 AM  
53% Left, 53% Rear, 48.5% Cross. Overall weight is 2305 on the money. 1 lb. per cc.
the car is great through the corners with no noticable sawing on the wheel. our lap times are within .1 or .2 of the top in qualifying and often times faster.
stagger is at 3.5" now but could possibly use just a bit more according to the measurements we took on the track the other day.(and yes i actually made a device to measure the circumference of the track on the inside and outside lines using the track width of the car and and the typical lines run by the driver.) seems like a lot of trouble but it is far more accurate than a guess. the other driver is a hated rival so that is out of the question. if he would say ,it would more than likely be bull**** anyway.
this track requires us to drive hard into the corner and using a 40/60 brake split we'll brake hard in to the apex and accelerate out. keep in mind that this is not a typical "mini stock" and is more akin to a late model.

Xtrem4U
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 144
posted July 16, 2005 11:45 AM  
I don't have the exact answer-but- could be- traction control unit (no help tacky track- but on dry "wow")- roller cam dialed in perfect(lotta extra power outta turn)- did he learn to hit the apex? Our track something different every few weeks. Last years beast was a toyota 22r stroker. Start of this year, guy that was a 5th place car has a new essingler crate motor, he was the beast- two weeks ago 2nd place car came out with his new 2.9, now he's the fastest. That's racin'! Your guy- I'm betting the cam!

juliaferrell
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 370
posted July 16, 2005 10:45 PM  
How long is the track? What lap times are you running and what is he running. I don't like the brake deal to set a car........I prefer a controlled momentum decel/accel.. sprint car type racing. Since you've measured the corners, have you measured the distance of the straightaways and corners?

juliaferrell
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 370
posted July 16, 2005 10:49 PM  
Back to the ask them:

I once had a rival, hated, longtime competitor ask what size jets I ran: I replied: "**** I just throw them away" He just walked off....The truth was I did throw them away. We were running 5200 series carb on methanol." Just remember to read between the lines on the responses sometimes. "smiles"

dirttracker98
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 284
posted July 17, 2005 07:44 AM  
quote:
Originally posted by speedyd1:
candy *** ? thats an interesting way of putting it. i'm not so much interested in finding him illegal as finding out exactly what it is he is doing better than us. of course maybe you cant understand that with your apparent level of comprehension that youve shown in your previous post. and as far as your prognosis on the engine goes.
you apparently dont know as much as you might think. i have been building these motors for over 30 years. i have all the latest building equipment and certifications to go with it. i have wet flow benches, cnc mills, all sunnen equipment. i also own a performance warehouse and have just about everything one could want to run and have tried them all. untill you have the talent or the financial capabilities to compare i would suggest that you read and learn more before making such a statement. my chassis dyno doesnt lie like your engine builder.
anybody can make statements as to what they think it is doing but i can tell you that i have never had a single car come in here in which their so called power figures match what the dyno actually shows. inflated numbers are just that. inflated and full of hot air.this guy is doing something and i want to know what it is.plain and simple.

after reading allthis stuff it seems to me you just can't accept the fact that your hi~dollar outfit is LOOSING and it makes you just plain sick'cause you can't win

why not walk up and ask him?the worse thing that can happen is he will tell you where to go.

[This message has been edited by dirttracker98 (edited July 17, 2005).]

bigcityracer
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 431
posted July 17, 2005 10:06 AM  
Run a spring spacer/rubber in the RF. That will get him off the brake sooner. I never scaled, a car. I setup by feel and that is what you need. You may need more motor or other things too, but this will help.

wetwolfone
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 51
posted July 20, 2005 01:50 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by speedyd1:
53% Left, 53% Rear, 48.5% Cross. Overall weight is 2305 on the money. 1 lb. per cc.
the car is great through the corners with no noticable sawing on the wheel. our lap times are within .1 or .2 of the top in qualifying and often times faster.
stagger is at 3.5" now but could possibly use just a bit more according to the measurements we took on the track the other day.(and yes i actually made a device to measure the circumference of the track on the inside and outside lines using the track width of the car and and the typical lines run by the driver.) seems like a lot of trouble but it is far more accurate than a guess. the other driver is a hated rival so that is out of the question. if he would say ,it would more than likely be bull**** anyway.
this track requires us to drive hard into the corner and using a 40/60 brake split we'll brake hard in to the apex and accelerate out. keep in mind that this is not a typical "mini stock" and is more akin to a late model.

If you think he has a traclock or whatever you call it then why don't you put one in your car and see what happens?

Raxp
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 6
posted July 21, 2005 11:39 AM  
quote:
Originally posted by dirttracker98:
after reading allthis stuff it seems to me you just can't accept the fact that your hi~dollar outfit is LOOSING and it makes you just plain sick'cause you can't win
why not walk up and ask him?the worse thing that can happen is he will tell you where to go.

Ditto.. Then again, he does have a multi-million dollar facility that is far superior than any other.. Except the dude that kicks his ********** every week.

[This message has been edited by Raxp (edited July 21, 2005).]

speedyd1
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 170
posted August 01, 2005 06:32 AM  
the verdict is in - 2800 cc with a tracloc. the track tore him down this weekend. they took all his points for the year too. he raised so much **** that they threatened to barr him for the rest of the year. i guess it pays to be legal sometimes. he also must prove that he is legal before he can run again.

juliaferrell
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 370
posted August 01, 2005 08:37 AM  
We'll since the 2800cc didn't matter, then I guess it was the traclock

juliaferrell
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 370
posted August 01, 2005 08:44 AM  
Did you get to see what kind of traclock it was?

speedyd1
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 170
posted August 01, 2005 10:12 AM  
they wouldnt let us in the room but i overheard the tech guy through one of the windows say he was running a something "gold" unit in a 9" rear.they usually wont tell us what they find but i happened to have a spot close enough to hear.

TBROOKS
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 14
posted August 01, 2005 08:00 PM  
i ran a pos unit once and a slipper had no gains either way. so we just weld em.


TBROOKS
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 14
posted August 01, 2005 08:09 PM  
i used to run a very lite flywheel and chevy 6 in. rods in mine and used to kick their **s. was track champ 2yrs in row with same motor. quicker throttle responce is fast.


speedyd1
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 170
posted August 02, 2005 12:51 PM  
julia - it wasnt the motor. we literally pushed him all over the track this weekend. we helped him down the straights many a time. he was running a real defensive line this week with an early entry and low line and we just couldnt make the pass on the outside coming off. it was a bit more wet than usual so he didnt have that huge advantage in the corners. i did change the rear over to the 9 in and went up on gear. the dyno showed a slight loss but the car seemed to really like it. thanks for all the input.

wenee9w
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 11
posted August 03, 2005 11:19 AM  
Its called a Gold trac.Wished I,d seen this post earlier.Popular deal here even in modifieds with 650-800(x Cup engines restroked) ponies.

Back to the Archives