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Author Topic:   What Sort of Payoff is Necessary to Bring in the Cars for a Big Race These Days?
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 18
posted December 11, 2003 04:28 PM  
I am in the early stages of planning what I'd like to be one of the biggest 4 cylinder races for next year. With more and more big payoffs popping up all the time, I have to wonder what is necessary to bring out the cars. This race will be held either in the Southern Tier of NY or Northern PA sometime in October after regular season races are over. I know this will be the biggest race of its kind for this area, but I'd like to bring in a decent amount of travellers.

The rules for the event are being setup to make sure the largest number of cars possible will be competitive. There will be 3 classes: a pure stock class, a super stock class, and a basically open class. If your car has an OEM 4 cylinder block, can make weight, and is safe it will fit into one of these classes. One of the more progressive thing I am going to try to do is to setup the race so carbureted and fuel injected car will be allowed to compete against each other in each of the classes. Also weight rules will be used in all the classes that will be based upon engine displacement and the number of valves.

I have been to many big 4 cylinder races in NY, PA, NC, SC, and GA and I have learned a lot about what people do right and wrong. I know I can make this a great event, but I also know that it won't be without the cars. This is where the payoff comes in. I have drawn up some possible payoffs. I believe the most feasible one I've come up with would have the winners being paid $3000, $1000, and $500 in the super stock, open, and pure stock classes, respectively. I can do a little better than that, but I will be taking a big chance if the cars don't show up. This would be without a major sponsor. Is this enough money to get people to travel to NY in October or should I start really looking for some good sponsors?

Like I said, this race is very much in the early planning stages. I'd just like to get some input and see if people are interested. As this race becomes more and more a reality, you will be seeing and hearing a lot more about it.

Nate Stevens

Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 626
posted December 11, 2003 04:40 PM  
what would the rest of the payoff be I know I have been to a couple big races and they advertise a large purse and when it comes down to it first was the only one who it was worth their time. You know what you could do is say x amount for each car will go for a purse. Start out with a basic purse and then add on for each car. Also post any extra cost for instance I went to a race that said entry fee 75.00 early this was a 1000 dollar race with a 100 to start. Well the way I took it in their flier that would get you into the pits too. but man was I wrong it cost 25 one day and 30 the next. So I had 155 tied up in it before I even paid for gas or got it unloaded. Just .03 though. Later BObby

Dirt Roller

Total posts: 18
posted December 11, 2003 05:32 PM  
Honestly, this is something I need to work on a little. I really should know better, too.

I don't have a copy of the payoffs with me now and I can't remember them well enough to post them. I'll try to in the next couple days, though. The way I originally did them was so that everyone that made the race would make back the amount of the late entry fee. I'll go back through them and see how it will work if I cover their pit passes and some extra money.

I still have a lot to discuss with the track owner, where I'd like to hold the event, but I can give you some the figures I am estimating. My plan is to have the race 2 days with the day before being open for practice. The pit passes would be $20 on race days and $10 for practice. My late entry fees would be $50, $75, and $100. I am going to need to recalculate my early entry fees after I go back through the payoffs. I plan on starting 24 cars in each feature with the possibility of 26, depending on how I decide to handle provisionals.

I understand and appreciate your idea about the increasing payoff, but for several reason I want a solid posted payoff before the event ever starts. There is too much possibility of controversy with a payoff that can change.


Dirt Roller

Total posts: 18
posted December 11, 2003 06:46 PM  
I don't have the rest of my budget in front of me, but I think this payoff may work.

Super Stock 4
1. $3000
2. $1500
3. $1000
4. $750
5. $600
6. $500
7. $450
8. $400
9. $375
10. $350
11. $325
12. $300
13. $275
14. $250
15. $225
16. $200
17. $200
18. $200
19. $200
20. $200
21. $200
22. $200
23. $200
24. $200

Early Entry Fee - $75
Late Entry Fee - $100

Open 4
1. $1000
2. $750
3. $600
4. $500
5. $450
6. $400
7. $375
8. $350
9. $325
10. $300
11. $275
12. $250
13. $225
14. $200
15. $175
16. $150
17. $150
18. $150
19. $150
20. $150
21. $150
22. $150
23. $150
24. $150

Early Entry Fee - $60
Late Entry Fee - $75

Pure Stock 4

1. $750
2. $500
3. $400
4. $350
5. $325
6. $300
7. $275
8. $250
9. $225
10. $200
11. $180
12. $160
13. $140
14. $120
15. $110
16. $100
17. $100
18. $100
19. $100
20. $100
21. $100
22. $100
23. $100
24. $100

Early Entry Fee - $40
Late Entry Fee - $50

How does that look? I think I can do it, if I get the deal with the track that I'd like. That and I need a lot of cars to come.

[This message has been edited by JALD (edited December 11, 2003).]

Dirt Roller

Total posts: 21
posted December 11, 2003 07:03 PM  
hey I live in the area that that your talking about and I was wondering what tracks your thinking about. Blackrock sounds like it would be a good track to have this at they have plenty of parking areas and great food and prices.Try talking to Lynn Hough and I think he might go for something like this.Car count shouldn't be a problem that late in the season and there are plenty of other tracks done by then, I think... Let me know any info you have and I will try to help.

Dirt Roller

Total posts: 18
posted December 11, 2003 07:35 PM  
Black Rock is one of my top altrnatives. Thunder Mountain is my first choice mainly because I have a very established relationship with the entire staff there. Plus they already have 3 4 Cylinder classes there.

Black Rocks rules are going to be a big part of my basis for the Pure Stock classes rules. I am just going to make changes to allow more engines and fuel injection.

By the way, it has nothing to do with this, but I run a website called Southern Tier Dirt Online that has a forum for Black Rock. You might want to check it out. The address is

I'll keep you informed about all this. Feel free to write me about anything.

Nate Stevens

Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 87
posted December 12, 2003 06:25 AM  
Are you going to let Adirondack speedway cars in to run?We ran at oswego,chemung and tioga and took most of their money and would like some of yours.At that time of year most of the tracks are hard and slick so we could run our tires or are you going to have a tire rule?

Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 626
posted December 12, 2003 07:12 AM  
a suggestion on tires would be just have a width rule of 8" tread width.

Dirt Roller

Total posts: 18
posted December 12, 2003 11:03 AM  
Adirondack cars will be very welcome. I think you will find that my Super Stock rules will be quite similar to your rules with a few changes. I am going to try to market this race to the sports compact market, so I hope to see quite a few Hondas, Acuras, VWs, etc. As far as making the checks out to you guys already, we'll just wait on that.

b4racing, that is pretty much what I was thinking. Pure Stocks would have to use 7" street legal tires, Super Stocks any 8" tire, and Open will be allowed any tire.

So far it looks like I'm on the right track. Thanks again for the input and keep it coming.


Dirt Freak

Total posts: 431
posted December 12, 2003 10:43 PM  
Do you have a complete set of rules for the cars in each class?

Dirt Roller

Total posts: 18
posted December 13, 2003 12:22 AM  
I do not have official rules written up yet, but I can definitely give you the gist of them.

The Pure Stock 4 class will be pretty much completely stock cars and trucks. Blueprinting and cleanup work will allowed for the engines, but little else. I realize this will be very dificult to tech, but a lot of research will go into this. The exterior appearance of the car will be required to be completely stock, except removal of glass and the covering of headlight openings. The suspension components will all have to be pretty much stock. Any stock appearing springs will be allowed and no high performance or racing shocks will be allowed. The cars will be required to weigh 1 pound per cc if they have 8 valves, 1.1 pounds per cc if they have 12 valves, and 1.2 pounds per cc if they have 16 valves. With a minimum of 1800 lbs. All of this on street legal 7" tires.

The Super Stocks will be stock chassis cars and trucks with "stock appearing" fabricated bodies allowed. The engines will have basically no bottom end rule as long as they make weight. No dry sump oiling systems. Only stock heads and intake manifold will be allowed. I will make a specific rule about how much work can be done to the head or intake, and if there is more work done there will be a weight penalty. Carbed cars can use any single 1 or 2 barrel carburetor. Fuel injected cars may modify injectors and throttle bodies as long as they are the stock type that came on the car. Suspension must be pretty much stock in stock location. Weight jacking devices will be allowed. Any springs or shocks will be allowed as long as they are in the stock location. No other non-stock suspension components will be allowed, but stock components may be modified. Quickchanges will not be allowed. The Super Stocks will have the same weight rules as the Pure Stocks and will be allowed any tire with up to 8" of tread width.

As for the Open class it is basically that, open. The cars will be required to have a OEM automobile block, so that we don't get dwarf cars, mini sprints or expensive midgets. The cars will be required to weigh .9 pounds per cc with 8 valves, 1 pound per cc for 12 valves, and 1.1 pounds per cc for 16 valves. I am debating having a weight penalty for cars with dry sump oiling systems. Other than this, any safe car will be allowed to run.

The actual rules for this race will be very specific and will be posted on one of my websites, probably next month. If anyone sees any big problems with these rules or has any questions feel free to post here or e-mail me.

Nate Stevens

[This message has been edited by JALD (edited December 13, 2003).]

USAUS Racing
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 69
posted December 13, 2003 07:14 AM  
What abpout cars with less than8 valves per cylinder?? or do you mean per block?? What about maximum engine capacity

Dirt Roller

Total posts: 18
posted December 13, 2003 08:44 AM  
Oops, sorry about that. I meant 8 valves per engine. Just bad proofreading on my part there. I promise it won't happen with the official rules.

As far as maximum displacement goes, I am planning on leaving that open. Personally, I don't think it is an advantage to run a big engine with this sort of rules; although, anyone is welcome to disprove me. There may be a bit of a safety factor there, but I just don't really see it being a problem. Please tell me if you think I am wrong.

Dirt Roller

Total posts: 21
posted December 13, 2003 08:35 PM  
sounds like the super stack class is more like the blackrock rules than the other but I am sure that if it is after the seasons over that you would probably would get at least 15-20 easily from there. It might be easier just pick certain tracks rules and split the classes up like that. Blackrock and Woodhull have the same rules other than weight, 100 pounds different I think. Talk to Lynn his number is on the web page, he and Sam Kelly are really looking for something like this. I don't know how the fuel injection thing is going to work out, seems like that would be a huge advantage and we wouldn't have a chance. Everything else sounds really good so far...

Dirt Freak

Total posts: 284
posted December 14, 2003 05:04 PM  
I take it this would be a 3 day show? Fri/Sat/Sun.with tech & qualifing on friday,heats & consis saturday,features on sunday as there aren't many holidays that time of year for a day of grace,if bad weather happens.Does the entry fee cover the drivers pit pass or will you have to purchase them?as for tire rules the pro 4/tube frame cars should be allowed to race on whatever their track rules specify,as most of them are pretty open anyhow.the super stock class should have a tire rule like any tire that fits thru an 8 or 9 inch hoop, mounted on the rim would be for the pure stockers,they should be on street radials on 7 inch rims & NO RECAPS allowed.and any pure stocker that is as fast as any of the super stocks should have to run with them. will drivers be allowed to race in more than 1 class? if you can get this deal going we'll bring an open car & a super stock & a pure stock and 10 or so people with us. As Capt.Picard says "make it so"

Dirt Roller

Total posts: 18
posted December 15, 2003 01:53 PM  
maweenie, many of the tracks in this area have close to what I am calling pure stocks and super stocks running together. The way I am setting up this race is that any cars that aren't quite legal in the pure stock class can enter the super stock class and cars that aren't quite legal for the super stock class can enter the open class. My idea is to bring in as many different cars as possible. I don't believe any single track's rules does this as well as I'd like. There aren't many people that have read as many 4 cylinder rulebooks as I have. Hopefully, I can put together something pretty good. Honestly, this race will be somewhat of an experiment though, so I guess we'll have to wait and see how competitive it ends up.

Now as for fuel injection, I think you are right. Stock advertised horsepower rating for the same engine with FI and with carbs show a significant difference. A 50 pound weight penalty for FI may be the best way to deal with it. What does everyone think?

As for Black Rock, like I said, there are one of my top alternatives. I am going to try to setup a meeting with the owner of Thunder Mountain before Christmas. If for any reason I don't like anything he has to offer, I will start contacting the other tracks.

dirttracker98, you are right about it being a Fri/Sat/Sun event. I was planning on making Friday just practice and tech, in case some drivers can't make it on time. The format I am planning for the event may change if I get a lot different car counts than I think.

I am going to keep the pit pass and entry fee separate, so that drivers that don't want to participate in all 3 days can save a couple bucks. The pit pass price I'd like to go with is $10/$20/$20. I will try to figure out something to do in case of bad weather, but as of right now I really don't know. I do know that there is a good chance that it will be cold.

Everything else you are pretty much right on with. I look forward to seeing you there. Not that you'll need it, but I will have a provisional in each class for the team that has travelled the farthest.

Nate Stevens

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