Visit The Dirt Forum for More Information

Author Topic:   best motor for a Sims limited or sport mod?
sledgehammer
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 102
posted November 23, 2005 07:21 PM  
What are some opinions on the motor combination, Ford, Chevy, Mopar?

What are guys doing that would cost 3000.00 dollars on a limited motor.

.450 lift rule, 12"vacuum at 1200rpm, 175lbs pressure on any one cylinder.

Thanks

racer17j
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 5446
posted November 25, 2005 12:05 AM  
Mopar 360 if the inches rules allow. Magnum heads if they allow. Otherwise if there weight breaks run a 318, lots out there, tough rev to beat the band. If magnums aren't allowed run 915 or 308 heads. Run 273 adjustable rockers, all mopar old style (pre amgnum) are shaft style and bulletproof! However, depending on weight a 302 Ford might not be so bad either....

------------------
Speed Kills, Drive a Chevy and live forever!

Normal Sullivan
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 58
posted November 27, 2005 06:26 AM  
With those rules, how could you not run a 302? Weight advantage, easy to keep the compression down. The Ford will be your best bet, and you can save a lot of the money those bowtie guys are spending on bottom-end work.

dirt_mopar99
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 103
posted November 27, 2005 09:15 AM  
Normal- what does a 302 weigh? I know they are getting popular in the Wissota midwest mods. In the class in question do you have to run an auto? With a Ford do you run a C4 or C6? Don't know much about Fords but have always been curious. Does a Windsor weigh much more? My dad thinks I should run a 352 because he had one in a Galaxie one time and raves to this day how fast it was. I understand that the FE motors are heavy.

I have always been Mopar mainly because I have got acustomed to working on them and it isn't a Chevy. I run a pure stock now but have thought about going to a b-mod in the distant future.

Seems to me that the party may not last if the sanctioning bodies find out a non-GM setup might actually be more competitive. Case in point a guy up here ran a 360 in a Wissota super stock and dominated. Later that year Wissota ruled that if you ran a 360 you had to run 75# ahead of the engine plate. Just seems that the sanctions want to be lazy and only tech 350's.

------------------
Speed Kills, Drive a Chevy and live forever!

midmod34
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 121
posted November 27, 2005 10:08 AM  
302 block is appeox 40 lbs lighter than 305/350 and the crank is another 18 lbs lighter, you can easily use a c4 brhind a mw mod with no problems, need to buy a good converter though.

racer17j
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 5446
posted November 27, 2005 10:24 AM  
You're absolutely right. The cat is getting out of the bag so to speak, at around 450 pounds the 302 gives nothing away in front weight, and can make decent power. Obviously where stock bore/stroke is required it's a little undersized. I run a C4, in second gear, and an old top-loader four speed in my cars. The 351W weighs about 520 complete. I'm sure it's the same with the mopars, as with the fords, if your tech inspector doesn't know he's likely to rule against you. (If it's fast and it ain't chevy, you must be cheating...)

dirt_mopar99
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 103
posted November 27, 2005 10:38 AM  
Do you run forged or hyper pistons? I run Hypers in my 360 with file fit rings and have had no problems in 63 nights not to say they are the best....

------------------
Speed Kills, Drive a Chevy and live forever!

Normal Sullivan
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 58
posted November 27, 2005 10:39 AM  
17j: What's your point? how many 355's are 383's or 406's? If someone's going to cheat, building something the tech guys look at twice as long probably isn't the best way to do it. The fact is that with a well built 302/351 ford, or 360 mopar, we usually don't have to cheat

Normal Sullivan
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 58
posted November 27, 2005 10:42 AM  
Let's not start THAT argument again. I run both kb hypers,and forged pistons, one of my friends runs cast badger pistons with really good results,it just depends on what else you do to make it work. (wow that's a HUGE smiley!)

[This message has been edited by Normal Sullivan (edited November 27, 2005).]

dirt_mopar99
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 103
posted November 27, 2005 12:07 PM  
When I built my 360 3 yrs ago I called Mancini Racing (all Mopar all the time) and they said the equivalent of the TRW wasen't available for the 360. Diamond or JE was the only thing they offered. As far as that goes CAST - the real thing wasn't available. Is there a inexpensive forged out there?

------------------
Speed Kills, Drive a Chevy and live forever!

racer17j
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 5446
posted November 27, 2005 07:17 PM  
Dirt_mopar99: I'm assuming you mean for a 360. The Keith Black KB741 flat top forged goes for about $385 for a set of eight, KB743 domes go for a little more than $400, dish-tops are cheaper. I'm not sure that's inexpensive, but they're a bargain compared to JE's at $440, 100 bucks less than wiseco, 200 less than Ross.

Racer17j: That seems the way tech works at most tracks until you start winning, after that everything gets more difficult. Rather than learning anything about Fords, or Chryslers, most tech guys make ya PROVE it's legal. They're just too lazy to do the research, but when the chevy guys start complaining, it's just a matter of too many of them vs. too few of us. No promoter is going to run-off gate money in order to be fair and consistent. I've always felt the best approach is to do everything WITHIN the rules that you can to win. Document your parts combo, and why it's legal, and keep that in the dry box on your trailer, eventually you'll need it. I run a 302, and a stroker, they're both rules-legal, and they're competitive.

As far as using cast or hyper pistons, I've never lost an engine due to piston failure, and I've built them both ways. The machine work is critical, and the parts combo must work with whatever choice you make. The same can be said of running with forged pistons; they're tougher, sure. But there are guys losing with forged pistons, guys breaking/burning forged pistons, guys dropping valves through forged pistons.

The big advantage I see to running a ford is how tough the factory parts are. Nodular iron cranks, really strong rods, lots of places you don't have to spend money, that lets you spend it somewhere else. I read on here all the time that hyper pistons are junk; apparently mine don't know that.

ford5
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 719
posted November 28, 2005 05:29 AM  
In a previous post\discussion, Normal states that Fords cost more to build and the stock cranks\rods are not as good as buying aftermarket offshore stuff?
Are you backing up now? I guess I might have been right?

J3
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 203
posted November 28, 2005 12:04 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by ford5:
In a previous post\discussion, Normal states that Fords cost more to build and the stock cranks\rods are not as good as buying aftermarket offshore stuff?
Are you backing up now? I guess I might have been right?

Stock stuff is not "as good" as expensive after market stuff. But that does not say that it isn't good either. Most stock ford parts are better and stronger than stock chevy parts. So, with ford parts, you can get away with buying stock parts for certain things that you can't with chevy.

Normal Sullivan
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 58
posted November 28, 2005 09:12 PM  
ford5: I liked you a lot better when I didn't like you. As I ACTUALLY said in my previous post, there's more than one way to build 'em. The question with fords, just like every other make, always comes down to "how fast do you want to spend?" However, when talking "equivalent parts", the aftermarket charges more for ford or chrysler parts than brand-x.

Obviously we choose a combination that works for the required power output, the expected rpm range, the racers budget, and how much we stand to lose on a claim.

For very rules-limited engines, the stock ford pieces are a better value than brand-x (block/crank/rods)
If you're planning to spin it much past 6500 though, I've had better luck with forged cranks/rods, (yeah, even the cheap imported junk) because, in my experience, they seem to work better with hypereutectic alloy pistons in a 0oz balance than the stock cranks at either 28oz or 50oz do. I believe this may have something to do with crank-twist set up by the balance weights being way out on the ends of the crankshaft, but I'm not sure.

I read somewhere that this one joker is using the stock iron cranks with forged pistons. I suppose that's another option for high rpm work.

Of course if you're talking unlimited budget; custom stroke All-american 4340 billet steel internally-balanced crank, 6AL4V Titanium rods, and custom forged ultralight pistons, wrap the whole thing in a kevlar diaper, and spin it till you lose your nerve.

Finally: Of course you were right! (but so was I) The post is still up in this forum, anyone can read it that wants to.

[This message has been edited by Normal Sullivan (edited November 28, 2005).]

modi25
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 27
posted November 28, 2005 10:47 PM  
norman you are right about having to prove you are legal, we run 302 and 351w in a sims
limited. we went to a 2 day race at the end
of this year and the were checking valve springs, the dq'd us from the heat because
the said our valve springs were larger than
stock. i aske the tech guy what diameter they were supposed to be, he said i dont know, i said how can you dq me when you dont know what size they are supposed to be, he said they shouldn't be that big. needless to say i had to bring service manual the next night to prove to him that the were stock diameter, said it was my job to prove it was legal.

General
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 153
posted December 03, 2005 09:42 PM  
For a Sims engine forged pistons are illegal, any make. Aftermarket rods, cranks, titanium that, all BS and not legal on a sims limited. Build something your familiar with or already have the makings for. Sims are meant to be cheap. If you gear your car accordingly, have a great setup, and are an outstanding driver, motor ain't gonna beat ya.

sledgehammer
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 102
posted December 04, 2005 05:37 AM  
Finally somebody responded to what I asked about.

Thanks, General.

Back to the Archives