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Author Topic:   HELP! From the Ford Guys
5tbone
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 60
posted November 06, 2005 07:55 PM  
My local e-mod class gives these rules for the motor and these are the only rules in the book I know you have to use the correct blocks so I can't play w/ stroke and bore. I want to use a Ford so I'm not as likely to get claimed. SO w/ these rules what can I build and put a woopin on them.

2. Engine Set Back: Same as IMCA. 72" to back of block from centerline of rear axle housing.
3. Engine: Steel block and heads only. No late-model production heads on Chevy's. Flat-top pistons only. Cast iron intakes only. No Bow-Tie. All accessories must be driven and mounted off the front of the engine. Roller rockers ok.

Motors Allowed:
Chevy 305 +0.030 overbore
Ford 302 +0.060 overbore
Dodge 318 +0.020 overbore

Min.-17 inch Vac at 1,000 RPM

ENGINES WILL BE PUFFED AT OUR DESCRECTION
4. Carburetor: Working Vacuum secondary 4 barrel. No squirters on back barrels

Normal Sullivan
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 43
posted November 06, 2005 10:35 PM  
My recommendation would be to build a .040" over 302. Use a Scat 4340 standard weight crank, Eagle SIR5090FB rods, Keith Black Hyper-pistons, (summit uem-kb281040-8), a voodoo cam #61003(Lunati), and a pair of stage 1 Roush 180 heads from Panhandle Performance (www.panhandleperformance.com), depending of course on the other parts you'll be running carb/intake/headers/etc.
No reason you can't whoop the chevys, it just costs more...


ford5
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 714
posted November 07, 2005 04:25 AM  
It does not have to cost more!
1st off, do not buy a Scat or any other aftermarket China crank, when you have to maintain stock stroke. Use the crank that came in your motor core. Also do not buy aftermarket China rods, if you must maintain stock length for the rules, Use the stock rods that came with your motor core, have them resized with ARP bolts, they are plenty good enough. This being done, you will have money left to spend where you will need it most, that is on the pistons, lose the KBs if you can and spend a few bucks more on Probes or the equal. have the rotating balanced and you will have solid bottom end.

mike9
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 76
posted November 07, 2005 12:26 PM  
I agree with Ford 5 the stock ford Crank and rods are much betterthan stock chevy or the chinese stuff and a good set of Forged pistons are the way to go have the small end of the rod honed so you have full floating pins and get lightwieght pistons i bought a set from Wisco for 548.oo including rings

midmod34
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 119
posted November 07, 2005 04:16 PM  
ive run the stock 302 ford crank and new rods from speedway ($89) put in bolts float pistons SRP turns over 7500 on 4412 on e85

Normal Sullivan
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 43
posted November 07, 2005 09:55 PM  
Ford5/Mike9, I've never broken a hypereutectic piston, or a forged crank, have you? Just curious. Anyway, the tough part is going to be finding a cast iron 4bbl intake, they're getting scarce. Spend the bucks on a good oil pan and pick-up and save yourself some grief as well.

ford5
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 714
posted November 08, 2005 04:31 AM  
I've broken\burned lots of KB pistons for what they cost, vs what a good forged costs, you are money ahead to not take chances.
I have not broken a stock 302 crank, and I doubt if 5tbone will either, especially if he prescribes to that set of rules he outlined.
Not even the new style 2MAE light weight castings........if balanced right.
Better yet..find an old 255 cid., lighter yet crank,they are same as 2MAE and hollow journals. They weigh around 34 lbs. I know a guy here that won a bunch of races in a b-mod class with similiar rules with a 255 crank and never broke it.

ford5
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 714
posted November 08, 2005 04:35 AM  
I do agree with the good pan\pickup idea.
The cast 4v intakes are not that hard to find....I know where some are. You can probably buy them off ebay for less than 100 bucks.

mike9
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 76
posted November 08, 2005 02:02 PM  
i have never broken a cast ford crank ford uses nodular iron in theirs and no i have never broken or burned a cast kb piston because i wouldnt put an engine together with them , the stock ford cast pistons are better . i have always used forged pistons in a race engine , just the way i am

Normal Sullivan
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 43
posted November 08, 2005 05:51 PM  
That's kinda what I suspected. The crankshaft I recommended is an internally balanced piece, forged from non-twist 4340 steel. Not more prone to breakage than the stock nodular iron crank, but with a much higher modulus of elasticity, {non-twist), which is critical to the use of lighter hypereutectic pistons. (crank twist kills 'em as quickly as detonation does}. ditto for the rods. Secondly, I, and quite a few others have built very reliable, very durable racing 302's using these components by paying close attention to piston/wall clearance, and avoiding detonation like the plague. I'd say that any problems ford5 has had with the kb hypers is due directly to one of these two issues. Running a cast crankshaft, who can tell? Lastly, No one said, or implied that there was only one way to build a solid engine {'cept you two } The guy asked for suggestions, and I gave him mine. BTW: There are 3 289 intakes listed on E-Bay today for $125 each. See you at the races.

ford5
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 714
posted November 08, 2005 09:52 PM  
My cylinder wall clearance is not the reason for KB piston failure..
A stock 302 block is more likely to break than the crankshaft every time, regardless of the cranks quality.
Normal Sullivan.........How many engines do you build a year? How long have you been building\racing Fords? Are you an experinced machinist? And, are you a KB piston salesman?

Normal Sullivan
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 43
posted November 08, 2005 11:15 PM  
Why all the personal animosity? (1) You stated in a previous post:"I've broken\burned lots of KB pistons". Obviously you've had some detonation problems. whether or not you're competent to bulid an engine using these components is beyond the scope of my concern. (2) Where did you get the idea that I said a stock Ford crank would break? I said that it will twist, and set up secondary hamonic frequencies which might destroy an otherwise servicable piston. There are several ways to deal with this: You can run heavy forged pistons which will withstand this, or you can run a metallurgically superior crankshaft. You do it your way, I'll do it mine. (3) My resume: I've been building and racing Fords for 26 years, I probably don't build as many engines as you do, mine don't break. I currently supervise 32 machinists in an industry that requires tolerences on some parts @ 20 millionths of an inch, and I hold a degree in industrial technology/engineering, so yeah, I'll pass for a machinist. (4) I'm not a salesman for anyone. I'm a racer who'll offer advice when someone asks. You however seem to be a know-it-all who'd rather criticise that advice than offer anything constructive yourself. 5tbone asked about a parts combo that would help him be competitive. What I suggested will do that, your personal experience notwithstanding. Did you offer anything that will help him make HP? Help him go faster? Help him find the parts? Nope. So you have a problem with the Chinese. So what? So you personally can run nine-zillion rpm with a stock crank and 4 pound pistons, big deal. How does that information help answer his question? If you choose to criticise the advice of others, be prepared for them to defend it using their own knowledge and experience, if that makes you angry, tough sh!t.

[This message has been edited by Normal Sullivan (edited November 08, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by Normal Sullivan (edited November 09, 2005).]

ford5
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 714
posted November 09, 2005 05:38 AM  
Sorry, I got your panties in a bunch...

You are the expert.....I concede

Normal Sullivan
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 43
posted November 09, 2005 11:09 AM  
You didn't, but you're welcome to continue trying.

5tbone
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 60
posted November 09, 2005 06:21 PM  
EEEEEAASSY Now Fellas. I just wanted to get some advise not start a war I'm not sure what I'm going to as of yet but you BOTH have been helpful Cause I know NOTHING! about fords I appreciate any info that anyone has.
Thanks again keep the ideas coming.

Normal Sullivan
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 43
posted November 09, 2005 10:24 PM  
Don't sweat it. We ain't mad, just competitive, racers are like that In truth there are a lot of good people on here with a lot of good information and we all do things a little differently. You could learn a lot from ford5, (and I could as well), if we could get him to share some of those speed secrets.... Maybe if I bought him a beer it would help.

ford5
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 714
posted November 10, 2005 04:44 AM  
It might help...if I was a drinker, LOL
Never tryed to pizz you off....Just tryed to let it be known that it DOESNT have to cost more to race and win with a Ford! I can prove that, and my pet peeve is all the guys who always say that, 1st words they have are; Well it won't have happened if he didnt spend all that money on a Ford motor.
Wish I had a dollar every time I hear that....I could build a cup motor with the money.

Good luck racin'------- Brian

mike9
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 76
posted November 10, 2005 06:43 AM  
yeah that old " i would race a ford but they cost more to build " i hear it all the time too the only time it would cost more to build a ford than a chevy is if you had the parts to build a chevy and you didnt have anything for a ford , and the same goes the other way too . i have had 2 351 windsors that have run for 5 full seasons without being touched other than regular maintanence and they were turned between 6200-6500 . oh i forgot we did change the valve springs after 2 seasons . the key to a long and happy life is good machine work and balancing and cleanliness in assembly and dont run em hot 210 - 220 is fine but 230 is getting too hot

ford5
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 714
posted November 10, 2005 05:47 PM  
Yep...mike9,I agree with everything you said

Mod57
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 64
posted November 10, 2005 06:05 PM  
I have personally touched some of Ford5's trophys and it would honestly take a while to touch them all. In my book Brian and Dave (his right hand man) are top notch engine builders, be it a Ford or one of those other off brands. Respect his authority!

outlawstock17
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1365
posted November 13, 2005 10:35 AM  
true, ford5....fords do not cost more to build unless knowledge has a price. i've always considered it priceless!

mike9
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 76
posted November 15, 2005 07:16 AM  
the difference with building a ford and the other brand is with the ford sometimes you have to be creative and use your imagination the other guys just put em together like everybody else lol

brabbit75
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 35
posted November 15, 2005 11:21 AM  
I totally agree, Ford guys just seem to know more about what they are doing and why.

mike9
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 76
posted November 15, 2005 01:53 PM  
well most of us lol there are still some out there that dont have a clue but i think most ford guys do more research and get the right parts the first time after all buying the right parts the first time is cheaper than buying the wrong ones twice

Normal Sullivan
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 43
posted November 16, 2005 12:40 AM  
JE pistons Ford 302=669.95, Chev 350=629.95
Eagle SIR Rods 302=285.00, Chev 350=259.00
Eagle 4340 crank 302=659.00, Chev=589.00
Kevco Sportsman pan 302=235.00+ 40.00 p/u
Kevco Sportsman pan 350=185.00+ 19.95 p/u
Tru-Seal head gaskets 302=19.95 350=16.95
Speeway oil pan gaskets 302=15.95 350=6.95
Clevite 77 rod bearings 302=27.95 350=24.95
Aluminum Intake Speedway 302=189.95 350=88.95
Same brands, same source, different prices. You guys really need to lighten up. Are you going to offer this guy some good power combo advice, or what?

ford5
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 714
posted November 16, 2005 05:46 AM  
Have you ever considered the fact, that 302 Ford blocks are a dime a dozen and 350-400 Chevy's are hot property, and can fetch good $$$ just about anywhere? At least in this area anyway.
I already stated that one could easily use the stock 302 crank and rods for his application it will be more than sufficient. I am not debating the 'crank twist' theory that you are harping on, just saying that in his, and many others case, my procedures will be just fine.......he does not have to spend big money for success. The performance thing is a whole other issue here. Also, an unknown factor here is, how much money are the other guys that he is trying to beat in his region putting into their equipment? We can't really ascertain that unless we have experienced it?
Now, I suggest we let this thread die..

Normal Sullivan
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 43
posted November 16, 2005 09:32 PM  
Tried that. Some people just won't let it go. As far as my crank-twist theory, it isn't. I've got two motors from last year torn down now, no broken pistons.

I've never implied that my way was the only way, or even the best way to do everything. That's your teams point of view.

My last post of course, wasn't directed at you anyway. Part for part, if you're buying aftermarket, Ford parts cost more. I can say that on this forum; don't really care who's pet peeve it is.

Lastly, lighten up. You haven't made anyone angry, and you haven't won any races (against me), so rather than just terminating this thread, lets agree that we can give conflicting points-of-view here without the need to try and discredit one another, or get into any more discussions about my qualification to hold an opinion. I'll do the same for you, Mike9 or anyone else. Personally, I'd rather be racing.

[This message has been edited by Normal Sullivan (edited November 16, 2005).]

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