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Author Topic:   Ford Engine! Which Ones better.
Outlaw66
Dirt Newbie

Total posts: 2
posted October 24, 2005 09:16 AM  
I run a bomber class with a stock engine rule, 8.5 to 1 compression rule, everythings supposted to be stock.

What ford engine head combo would be better for this rule?

nine finger
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 76
posted October 24, 2005 09:29 AM  
stroked 302 to 347.60 pound lighter than chevy.

ford5
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 711
posted October 24, 2005 03:57 PM  
351C if everything has to be stock

modfan
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 50
posted October 24, 2005 06:07 PM  
If everything has to be stock go with a 428 or a 460. Shovel a bunch of mud in the trunk to balance the car. You should be good to go.

nine finger
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 76
posted October 24, 2005 07:53 PM  
the clevlands are a joke too heavy and the oiling is a nightmare.why run a boat anchor its still a handeling game.

jd97brian
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 46
posted October 24, 2005 08:13 PM  
I agree with ford5 on the cleveland if the motor has to be stock. I've ran Clevelands in a street stock car for 6 years and have had good luck with them. I also have two 302 based engines but with the stock head and intake rule you will not get enough horse out of them. I also like the 302 based engines if you have a open head or intake rule but I would still take the Cleveland over a 302 or 351 Windsor if you have to run stock heads and intake but that's just my opinion.


dirt_mopar99
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 94
posted October 24, 2005 08:50 PM  
I am not a Ford racer nor do I claim to know much about them.... However I commend you on your choice to not run a Chevy!

I race Mopars, I have raced everything from a slant 6 to a 400 Big Block. My current ride had a BB 400 and 3 yrs ago I switched to a 360. The 400 had awesome power (as I assume the Clevland does) but what I gained in power I lost in handling twofold. It was very hard to handle. However if I ran only 1/2 miles, I'd go back to them, the 360 is way easier on the 3/8. What is the diff. in weight between the 351C and the 351W? BB Chrysler to Small block is in the neighborhood of 200#. Good luck!!

------------------
Speed Kills, Drive a Chevy and live forever!

dirtracer14
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1261
posted October 24, 2005 10:02 PM  
351c all the way... Run a "T" off the oil pressure line up to the front oil port on the drivers side to help oil the bottom end.

[This message has been edited by dirtracer14 (edited October 24, 2005).]

Normal Sullivan
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 39
posted October 25, 2005 03:01 AM  
The 351W, or the 302 are FAR better choices for your class. 100 pounds lighter, better oiling, and they make power where you can use it. A 351C with 4bbl heads makes a good drag race engine & with the 2bbl heads won't make as much power as the Windsor, assuming you're running "stock".

ford5
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 711
posted October 25, 2005 05:52 AM  
nine finger definently don't know about FORDS!

STOCK FOR STOCK.....A 351C will outrun and out last a 351W everytime, hands down!
I might know...I raced them all 25 years and counting.
I think CUSTOM PERFORMANCE will agree with me here?
Wanna touch my trophys?

[This message has been edited by ford5 (edited October 25, 2005).]

outlawstock17
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1363
posted October 25, 2005 09:13 AM  
ford5, i have to disagree, sort of.... a stock cleveland has 3 groove valves and that's the weakest link. a cleveland will not last at high rpms unless you have single groove valves.....all of this is assuming that the "stock cleveland" in question is not one of the high performance varieties such as a boss 351, which has single groove valves as stock...

other than that, i do agree that a stock cleveland will definitely make more power than a windsor.

ford5
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 711
posted October 25, 2005 05:23 PM  
How many rpms do you think anybody can turn with a stock motor? The three groove thing will last just as long as the Windsor 2 piece spring retainers...

outlawstock17
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1363
posted October 25, 2005 06:05 PM  
most classes that call for a "stock" engine allow an aftermarket cam and there are stock appearing valve springs and retainers(early windsor heads have 1 pc. retainers like 289's) that will provide enough pressure to turn 7000. i use a stock big block chevy spring as a drop in spring on stock early windsor heads. it has about 130lbs. on the seat and 340lbs. at .550 lift. on a cam under .500 lift, a 390GT spring is nice...

you can do all of this with the stock windsor valves. try it on cleveland with 3 groove valves and it will drop a valve before the season is half over. the most rpms i've been able to get out of stock windsor manifolds is 6600. that's enough to scatter a 3 groove cleveland. i've done it.....twice. the valves break right under the retainer.

not trying to argue with you ford5. i know you know your stuff and i do agree that if you were to compare 2 totally stock 1974 model engines, the cleveland would outperform the windsor hands down...

[This message has been edited by outlawstock17 (edited October 25, 2005).]

James Ott
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 131
posted October 25, 2005 06:23 PM  
Yah but i wanna touch his Trophies!!!!! That has to be the best one liner I ever heard!!! "Wanna touch my Trophies" HE HE HE

johder
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 100
posted October 25, 2005 08:36 PM  
well i got a one liner "i got a snake, wanna touch it" hahahah j/k before i get my self in trouble on here

dirtracer14
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1261
posted October 25, 2005 09:26 PM  
That 1 liner might go nice on the back of my mod for next year LMAO!!!!


WANNA TOUCH MY TROPHIES!!!!

CUSTOMPERFORMANCE
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1172
posted October 25, 2005 11:23 PM  
There is stock single groove cleveland valves both 2 and 4 v or get replacement ones with the single grooves and your good to go on the 351c. A stock 2 v c head has much better exh ports than any stock 351w head if you cant do any grinding but i would agree that maybe with some grinding a certain windsor head may be better than a 351c 2v. Although a heavier engine than the windsor a stock 351c will run away from a stock 351w from personal expierence on both street and track.

[This message has been edited by CUSTOMPERFORMANCE (edited October 25, 2005).]

Normal Sullivan
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 39
posted October 26, 2005 01:04 AM  
I love a good Ford discussion. The '74 351W was rated at 162hp, the 351c at 163. The head flow numbers don't show a big difference in exhaust-side flow until .400" lift. (W=112.9, C=143.5) The intake flow is much closer. Valve lifts for '74? 351C, 405/405; 351W, 419/448... weak vales, weak oiling, extra front-end weight and scarce expensive parts...My advice? Run the Windsor. Want to know where the performance difference comes from? Compression. Want to know why Cleveland parts are scarce and expensive? Run a Cleveland

Outlaw66
Dirt Newbie

Total posts: 2
posted October 26, 2005 01:20 PM  
Thanks guys. Cars already over weight big time, 79 thunderbird, running against all small cars. Is there a certian head that would be "stock" but add alot of power to the windser motor, with out blowing up the compression???

ispin
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 48
posted October 26, 2005 02:23 PM  
I run a windsor in an open motor class and blew it up three times this year my partner runs a stock cleveland with 12.5's in it and a cam I turned it 6500 for 20 laps with no problem at all. The only thing not stock in the valve train are the vales. They are stainless steel. We have had problems with knocking the heads off of the stock ones. As for the oiling putting the restrictor kit in the mains and adding the "T" at the back of the motor is good enough. Oh yea the 351C is a boat ancor but a bullet proof ancor.

Normal Sullivan
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 39
posted October 26, 2005 03:45 PM  
Run the heads that came with it, choose your parts combo (camshaft etc) to maximize what you have, and keep the rpm's below 6500. Build the bottom end right, and you'll make plenty of power and your engine will live.

BrianW
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 385
posted October 27, 2005 11:03 AM  
quote:
Originally posted by Outlaw66:
Thanks guys. Cars already over weight big time, 79 thunderbird, running against all small cars. Is there a certian head that would be "stock" but add alot of power to the windser motor, with out blowing up the compression???

Stock heads - GT40's and GT40P's came on the 302 and 351W's (351W Lightning's) - if you're on a budget - a flat-top 351, GT40P ("explorer") heads, and a mild race cam can make great torque from 2200-5500 (400+- Ft-lb across the range) and be a real powerhouse on the track IF you gear it right

nine finger
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 76
posted October 27, 2005 04:02 PM  
ford5 i still believe the windsor is better if only for the weight. and i wish i had the trophies you have. 25 years is a long time.

oldfordmod
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 46
posted October 28, 2005 12:05 AM  
There's not 10 lbs difference between a 351 W and a 351 C. Did anyone ever check the weight of a 351 W iron head? A bare C head cut .080 is 50 lbs. A W head is at least 45 lbs uncut. A W block is 180 bare and a C is 175. A C crank is about 3 lbs lighter than a W crank. I've ran these things for 30 years and I have checked the weight on them all. If you want light, a 302 block is 120lbs. And by the way, any stock W iron head su**s up beside a C 2 bbl or 4 bbl head's flow. If you want to be competitive in a stock class ford, you better run a 351 C With 4 bbl heads, sleeve the left hand lifter galley and drill a 1/16 hole for the lifter oiling (a standard overhaul procedure). With good clearances and a good baffeled pan it will live as long and make as much power as anything stock. Sorry for the sermon just couldn't help it.

Normal Sullivan
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 39
posted October 28, 2005 02:00 AM  
the 351C is 25 pounds heavier than the 351W, which is 65 pounds heavier than the 302.

Rather than stating that the W heads su**, why don't you post some flow numbers? Here are mine using bone-stock unported heads at 28in/hg:

C intake (2bbl)
.100" .200" .300" .400" .500"
59 114 177 200 211
W intake DO-E head
.100" .200" .300" .400" .500"
59 106 152 174 183

That's a whopping 28 CFM at .500" lift, or something like .056 cubic inches volumetric increase at 6000 RPM.

Exhaust side:

C .100" .200" .300" .400" .500"
45 85 117 144 160
W .100" .200" .300" .400" .500"
52 90 107 113 115

As you can see the "C" head outflows the "W" on the exhaust side by quite a bit. That's why every 351W ever built by ford used a dual-pattern camshaft with increased exhaust duration. No 351C, 2 or 4 bbl, did.

As far as the flimsier block/crank in the Cleveland, you'll get no argument from me, but back to the original post and my original point: His rules specify 8.5:1 CR, no such Cleveland was built by Ford, though any 351W or 302 from 1977 on would work.

And speaking of CR, 1971 351W 9:1 280 hp, 351C 10.7:1 285hp; the 330 hp Cleveland used a 4bbl and 11.3:1 CR....So lets build an 11:1 4bbl Windsor, even using the ****py stock heads, and strap it on the dyno, ok? Think we'll hit 330 hp? Better yet, lets build a 9:1 2bbl cleveland and see what she'll pull.... My point? Using STOCK parts he can't run a "C" at 8.5:1 and compete, and if we're in an unlimited money class I'll strap a set of cnc ported "N" heads on it and beat you on RPM's alone; Your crank will break before mine will.

The 351C is a better engine. That's why Ford stopped building them 30 years ago.

Oh yeah, End of sermon.

wetwolfone
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 51
posted October 28, 2005 11:03 AM  
This whole discussion is like one big advertisment for Chevy.

Get a 350 and be done with it.

nine finger
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 76
posted November 02, 2005 11:22 AM  
a good 350 still outweighs a stroked 302. but you wont get me these ford guys are serious.

brabbit75
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 28
posted November 03, 2005 11:35 AM  
I've been racing a Windsor for past 3 years, only problem I ever had was my fault, other than that, they have been nothing but great motors for me, and I will race a windsor next year as well, pure stock, with a 9.5:1 compression rule.

outlawstock17
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1363
posted November 13, 2005 10:26 AM  
great stuff, normal....one thing i might add. i've run the n-heads and while they are capable of some serious rpms and horsepower, the big journal windsor crank generates a lot of oil temp at high rpms. an oil cooler is a must or you'll beat the bearings out of it...

b4racing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 626
posted November 13, 2005 05:05 PM  
How about this question. I am thinking about switching my mustang from mini to a factory stock. Unlimited motor rule I would be the only ford of coarse what I would want is a motor that has the hp and i can depend on. I will race two different types of tracks. one small quarter mile paper clip real stop and go the other a fast med quarter or a real fast med 3/8. Thanks Bobby

outlawstock17
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1363
posted November 13, 2005 07:37 PM  
i run a mustang factory stock. you need to use a 302 block based engine unless you can set the engine back. with the stock engine placement a 351w makes the car too nose heavy.

[This message has been edited by outlawstock17 (edited November 13, 2005).]

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