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Author Topic:   break-in thoughts??
jpotter94
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 94
posted May 07, 2005 10:46 PM  
i just wanna get you guys thoughts on engine break in.we have been building our own race motors for about 15 years and we do about 30 or so a year for locals in our area.our break in pocedure really raises eybrows when our motor BUYERS see it..we use kendall racing oil(green) and wix racing filters..we fire them up,let em run at 2300 for about 15 mins then my father runs the dog **** out of em,and i mean cuts them no slack folks...we just finished our personal race motor this weekend and did the usual break in,out of all these years i have not asked my ol man why the **** he does this because lets face it,the man is a proven winner,but this time i finally had to ask cause i was just way too curious for way too many years as to why he does this.his answer was ''if they cannot handle what i put them through here at the shop,they sure the **** wont handle it on that track''...when he told me i just sat there and said,you are sure right,and he is..i havent seen one give yet so i guess he is doing something right..i was just wondering everyone elses thoughts on the break in cycle..thanks!

[This message has been edited by jpotter94 (edited May 07, 2005).]

allan
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 107
posted May 08, 2005 06:26 AM  
always been taught to break it in the way your going to use.

dirtbuster
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 2007
posted May 08, 2005 07:57 PM  
I agree, Once the cam is broke in and you get a little run time on the rings then its ready to go. No need babying it.

Raz_900
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 635
posted May 08, 2005 08:59 PM  
I'm thinking he's just been lucky.

After the first 15-20 minutes, I hope he changes the oil. And at least the first couple laps should be run easier than normal to let the rings and cam/valvetrain work in. Then another oil change and run it flat out.

If the motors are torn down every half year, you'll never know if the break-in procedure shortened it's life. Check them after a full year or year and a half compared to a motor with EVERY part/spec being exactly the same and different break-ins. Then you'll know.

For what it's worth, there were about 50-60 cars (late models, limiteds, E-mods and 2 classes of stocks) at the opening practice session at my track a couple weeks ago. Some tried running flat out first session. I think 3 motors expired that day. Yesterday was the 2nd race and I think 4 more have expired in the last 2 weeks. Makes ya think....

dirtracer14
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1261
posted May 08, 2005 09:28 PM  
We kinda do the same thing...after cam break in and a little time for rings to seat we take it out on the dirt road and drive it like its stolen, then come back check everything and race it...most the time the problem will come up there if anywere. What about this you baby it on playday then the first race BOOM it lets go.....what good did it do to baby it on playday??? I would rather find out on playday then race night!! Just my 2

jpotter94
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 94
posted May 08, 2005 09:41 PM  
after the first twenty minutes of run time we then change the oil,do a cutaway of the oil and inspect every plug..when i say runs the **** out of it i say he spins it up their about 8000 rpms quite a few times,slowly from idle to eight grand.at the track we run it like we do on a regular race night.might i add that we have one guy that runs our motor that has ran it 6 years and freshens it every two years,its a ford 408 on gas with about 590 lbs of torque..to keep them to full potential we like to see them regularly.our personal motor is a 388 all steel limited late engine,pullls about 650hp and has seen 8 grand regularly for 6 nights so far with no problems.we have guys at our local track whos motors have expired a few laps after they hit the track doing the supposedly right way to break a motor in..they run 4 laps slowly around the track plus let it run in the pits with the rear of the car jacked up,**** we get 4 laps out of it before it leaves the shop,and not no easy ones either..thanks for the replies,just kinda wondering everyones thoughts out of curiosity..

rico 08
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1139
posted May 09, 2005 05:57 AM  
When he runs the dog out of it i'm assuming it's on a dyno?running it like that without a load on the crank is a bad idea,every engine builder i've talked to will tell you the same.

zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1876
posted May 09, 2005 08:53 AM  
We usually fire it up for cam break in. then change oil. then refire it and double check timing and everything and let it run for an hour or so at idle. then check everything again(valves and such).
then let it idle or run low rpm for a few hours before it makes it to the track. may seem silly but we get multi seasons out of motors that are claimers.
As far as turning a motor 8000 better have a good valve train, and good rods to be turning 8000 plus any of the time.

jpotter94
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 94
posted May 09, 2005 09:31 AM  
this is done sometimes on a dyno and sometimes not on a dyno.just depends on weather the customer wants to pay the extra $600 for it to be on the dyno,either way in the last 15 years i have never seen one come apart,unless it had plenty of seasons on it or was not cared for like it should have been.

zeroracing--we turn out motor 8000 all day long in the heats at our track,if you wanna make the feature that is what your gonna have to turn to even be in the running here,in the feature we turn it down to about 7200 range due to it drying out..most any good modified engine here as well can turn 8000 all day long,personally if there is any motor pulling 650hp and above that doesnt have the top end capable of turning 8000,then something is wrong and i would find another builder.our motors(even claimers) come with all the topend components to make it bullet proof.the topends are built just as strong as the bottom ends.we found out many years ago that if you build a bulletproof bottom end and a weker topend then the topend will fail,and viseversa,this being why both the topend and bottom end are both build with all the hard hitting components,and personally if any builder does not do that he is cheating his customer.thanks for all the replys,alot of them are like mine,some are not..to each ones own..good day!

zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1876
posted May 09, 2005 10:16 AM  
most the mod motors around here are time bombs. tick tick tick....stock blocks, heavy valves, scat parts, eagle parts, 8000+ rpm...tick tick tick.

dirtbuster
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 2007
posted May 09, 2005 12:53 PM  
The thing is the only thing you are really doing by letting it run is get the rings seated in sooner. And even then the rings will seat better if you put a load on it and pull it a little bit to get some heat in it.

Have you ever seen a shop dyno a fresh engine. It goes on the stand, run for 20-30 minutes or so to break in the cam, then double check timing and your off and pulling. They dont baby it or half pull it. That dyno will pull harder on your engine than it will prob ever see on the track.

Most engine failures come from something breaking, not because the rings werent seated in, or the engine didnt have enough run time on it. To me if a rod is gonna break, a valve is gonna break, etc. It doesnt matter whether you baby it or not, its gonna break sooner or later, and has nothign to do with not having enough runtime.

Xtreme12x
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 874
posted May 09, 2005 02:24 PM  
any claim motor that will live a full season at 8000 rpm is not a claim motor. A claim motor consists of heavy pistons, stock rods, stock crank (scat 9000), shelf cam and mildly ported heads. If you can get that stuff to turn 8000 weekly you are god. Stock blocks aren't the issue with rpms, its the internals.

zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1876
posted May 09, 2005 02:29 PM  
To go past 8000 on a nightly bases you need good parts like.
American crank, carrillo lentz or eq. rod. Forged pistons, dart block(stock can work but still alot of flex), heads need good vavles like ferrea hollow stem, or titanium, good springs, and oilers are a great idea on top of that.
most guys popping off "i turn 8500 with a eagle crank for 45 shows" are blowing smoke.

Kromulous
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 796
posted May 09, 2005 02:46 PM  
A guy that i used to work for years ago used to build drag race engines and did the same drill. 20 minutes, change oil, and blam he was all over it. I asked as well, and he replied that if it was going to break he wanted to know first.

I guess it was his way of saying that babying a race engine after its been built and checked is pointless. He told me that years later as well.

zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1876
posted May 09, 2005 02:57 PM  
i let ours idle for a while to make sure the rings are seated well, and no problems, if there is a problem at 2000 rpm your going to tear up less than at 8000. like oil pump breaks, or shaft breaks. stuff like that. once i have idled them a few hours i then get on it on the track, i hardly ever rev them not on the track(over about 5000rpm off the track, whats the point of reving it constantly, sound cool??).

eenfield
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 116
posted May 09, 2005 06:09 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by dirtbuster:
The thing is the only thing you are really doing by letting it run is get the rings seated in sooner. And even then the rings will seat better if you put a load on it and pull it a little bit to get some heat in it.

Have you ever seen a shop dyno a fresh engine. It goes on the stand, run for 20-30 minutes or so to break in the cam, then double check timing and your off and pulling. They dont baby it or half pull it. That dyno will pull harder on your engine than it will prob ever see on the track.

Most engine failures come from something breaking, not because the rings werent seated in, or the engine didnt have enough run time on it. To me if a rod is gonna break, a valve is gonna break, etc. It doesnt matter whether you baby it or not, its gonna break sooner or later, and has nothign to do with not having enough runtime.



Could not have said it better myself...

leapinlizard
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 402
posted May 10, 2005 09:49 AM  
Had I done something different with break in or revving it up or anything may have saved my 1500 heads from total destruction. These heads were brand new and four laps old. Something happened somewhere, somehow, I not sure, to completly destroy my rods and pistons and pins and rings and crank and broke the block in three places. I turned it no faster then 5800. Is there something you can do or try at home in your drive way and shop to find these problems before you get into competition?

dirtbuster
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 2007
posted May 10, 2005 10:22 AM  
Thats my point in that case something was going to break, doesnt matter if you would have let it run for 5 hours and/or babied it for ahwile.

Stick the thing on a dyno, even a chassis dyno, and you will find problems if there are any before you race it. Wont necessarily prevent problems but they will show up. The way to prevent problems is to use good parts, and be extra careful to triple check everythign when assembling it.

jpotter94
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 94
posted May 11, 2005 10:24 AM  
zeroracing & extreme12-i never said our claimers were being turned 8000 on a nightly basis,i said they had the topend to turn 8000.our good motors that are turning 8000 are dart blocks,some stock blocks with alot of work, callies cranks,dyers rods and mahle pistons,truthfully they would hold more rpm then that but there is no use in turning anymore then that you would be way to far out of the cams range.also if all your mod motors there are time bombs then they are most likely running the imca type rules or the builders arent very good..our modifieds here are on UMP rules and alotof them have enough motor to put into a late model and trust me they are no time bombs....


i have to agree with dirtbuster totally on this hole deal ad his outlook is alot like ours.i have seen $25,000 dollar hovis engines expire after 2 nights,and it wasnt because it wasnt broke in right...

mfcracing...pm sent!!!!!!!!!!!

zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1876
posted May 11, 2005 10:28 AM  
I race in central mo. And yes I feel most of the people just have time bombs in waiting.

[This message has been edited by zeroracing (edited May 11, 2005).]

Xtreme12x
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 874
posted May 11, 2005 10:46 AM  
Break in periods are merely to seat the rings and seal the motor up. Nothing changes otherwise. You don't need to run them for a whole long time, just get them up to RPM to break in the cam and seat the rings, get the motor hot so everything seals good and your fine. I have never seen a motor break because it was not broke in properly. Even in our Briggs karts when I was doing a handfull of engines a week for guys the most I ever ran it was 10 minutes and then race them. The only other thing you need to do is the first night out try to get some laps packing the track so that you have put a load on the motor. IMCA Claimers are merely Stock Rods and Crank, or a Scat Crank and I beam rods with Cheap Pistons hung on them. If you have a claimer capable of turning 8000 with no stud girdles then it is more than likely not a claim motor. BTW it's Xtreme not Extreme...

Kromulous
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 796
posted May 11, 2005 11:37 AM  
You guys use Mahle pistons?

How much compression?

I've heard that with Mahle pistons and anything over about 14 to 1 and your waiting to see some fire works. Never ran them thou, just what i've been hearing.


leapinlizard
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 402
posted May 11, 2005 12:24 PM  
I agree with zero and most of the mods everywhere. UMP is crazy. They put in $15000 limited late engines in these cars and race for $400 to win. even the UMP lates are running 20,000 engines and they pay 1000 to win. CMS pays $1000 to win and my track pays $600 and we have less than 2500 in most engines. Do they blow up? sure, but your out a lot less money.

Kromulous
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 796
posted May 11, 2005 01:01 PM  
The only upside with a UMP Mod engine is, that they transfer quite nicely into a beginer LM. Our new one is going to put out right at 600hp, a few upgrades and 650 to 675 very easily.

Next year or two this engine will into a LM to learn with.


dirtbuster
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 2007
posted May 11, 2005 01:15 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by leapinlizard:
I agree with zero and most of the mods everywhere. UMP is crazy. They put in $15000 limited late engines in these cars and race for $400 to win. even the UMP lates are running 20,000 engines and they pay 1000 to win. CMS pays $1000 to win and my track pays $600 and we have less than 2500 in most engines. Do they blow up? sure, but your out a lot less money.

Not speaking necessarily about UMP, because I will agree 15000 is a little ridiculous in a mod, but.....

The thing is if you go through 3 or 4 of those 2500$ engines in one season thats up to $10,000/yr. Whereas if you build one good one for 5000-6000$ that you can run 3-4 years with nothing but a freshen in the off season, say you spend 2000 to freshen it but run it 3 seasons that 11000-12000 total in one good engine versus $30,000 in 12 cheaper engines over the same 3 year time period. Now to me thats a no brainer which one makes more sense.

jpotter94
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 94
posted May 11, 2005 01:38 PM  
zeroracing--if you are around my neck of the woods,then you should know the names im about to mention.steve payne,danny crane,gary blackburn,steve long,mark burgdorf,howie hall,david payne,cooter payne,quick rick kimberling,sonny kimberling,robbie knabel,kendall groves,jamie carter,larry winn,roger mosier,brenden martin,rusty griffaw,brain and joe pendergrass,johnny allen,i could set here and name names all day long and im sorry none of them are CLAIMER motors or ticking time bombs at neither fulton,lake ozarks,montgomery,or centrasl missouri speedway.i have had my hands in many of the engines i named and trust me they are very easily late model engines.

i do agree that $15000 in an engine is rediculouse,guys gotta realize that motor is about 30% of what makes these cars go..we have $8500 in our personal engine,but if you went to hovis,or pro power it would cost you $15,000...

EXTREME or XTREME-- either way it is still the same meaning!!!!!!any motor that comes out our door has stud girdles,ect on it,if your not getting that then your motor builder is cheating you.dont underestimate a claimer motor.a claimer motor with good heads,intake, and carb if done right it will pull very good horsepower numbers it just wont be as reliable.i have seen alot of them last a couple season pulling great horsepower and being easy on the gas and break..


as for the mahle pistons,most of our motors are 12-13 to 1 and we havent had one problem with them,we have more than good words to say about them..

[This message has been edited by True Blue (edited May 12, 2005).]

Speedracer92
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 70
posted May 11, 2005 02:58 PM  
If this guy has been building engines for this long and they have had success, give him a break!

Anyway, I seen something on Speed Channel a while ago where they were interviewing Big Daddy Don Garlits and when they built hemi drag engines years ago he said they would break them in and then turn them loose on the dyno wide open and go to lunch. If they came back from lunch and the motor was still running, it was a good one!

Blind Barney
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 120
posted May 11, 2005 04:55 PM  
Thats a funny story. nothin but money huh.

jpotter94
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 94
posted May 11, 2005 07:22 PM  
mfracing-i do need your adress i seemed to have lost the shipping receipt from shipping the gear,just a little miscomunicating on both parts,have a good en...

now back to engines..

i have spent alot of time with smokey and don klein with my father as a kid,they both have the same outlook as alot of us

Xtreme12x
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 874
posted May 12, 2005 07:01 AM  
EXTREME or XTREME-- either way it is still the same meaning!!!!!!any motor that comes out our door has stud girdles,ect on it,if your not getting that then your motor builder is cheating you.dont underestimate a claimer motor.a claimer motor with good heads,intake, and carb if done right it will pull very good horsepower numbers it just wont be as reliable.i have seen alot of them last a couple season pulling great horsepower and being easy on the gas and break..


We owned 2 377's built for claim applications that put out right at 600 HP last year for the Supernationals. They were ticking time bombs. Rods that were a little tweaked or "straightened", Used pistons and cracked crank. If you spend over 3250 on an IMCA Claim motor your insane, unless you know you won't get bought. A good claim setup is a set of KB Forged pistons, Scat 9000 Crank, Eagle I beam SIR Rods, Dart heads ported lightly and aluminum intake ported lightly. I know what a true claimer can put out and how long they also last. We had a guy with a true claimer pop one last week leading a feature here in town. Stud girdles are also not IMCA Legal. I know what a flat tappet can produce, but not for 3250 it won't make the big numbers you want. I can make any motor with the right parts turn 8000 all day, but it might not run worth a ****.


jpotter94
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 94
posted May 12, 2005 09:04 AM  
if your running a cracked crank and straitened rods that are not h-beams,you have more balls than i do cause i would never even put a motor together that away..i will agree with your version of a good claimer motor,that is about what any claimer we build has in it unless the owner is on a REAL tight budget..stud girdles are also on every claimer TYPE motor we put together,and are legal at every track within 150 miles of us..like i said most anything we run is ump stuff and we dont have to worry about any engine claim,so we use the best parts in our engines and dont have to worry about a thing breaking.our bottom end of choice is callies cranks,dyers rods and either mahle or srp pistons.we always have howards make our cams,hardened pushrods,and good set of heads done by rons porting,and a good hvh intake.we only run c&s and kb carbs..our 388 is pulling between 600 and 650 real hp on a real accurate dyno..this is an all steel motor per our rules we have to go by..like i said we have $8500 in doing it ourselves,would cost around $15,000 from one of the big name guys.a good rotating assembly when done right and maintained well will last a very long time.we got one ford powerplant that we did with a complete probe kit and it has been running about 6 yrs.the difference between a claimer and a GOOD motor is only the reliability of the parts,and a little bit of power.to me i would rather pay the extra money to have something worth what i spent my money on and not have to worry every night when it is gonna POP...

leapinlizard
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 402
posted May 12, 2005 09:04 AM  
Not to jump on some one elses post, I believe Zero said MOST!!! You've named Less than a tenth of a percent of the mod engines around here. Even less than that if you consider the big picture, You know just as well as I do all of these drivers are good(at least been around a while) around here but I wouldn't consider them the basis of mod engines all over the USA.

As far money in a engine, you can't compare my engine to others intended purpose. I have freinds who race three times a week, While I race on Fri. or sat. or Stay at home. You need a reliable engine to run 2500 laps at 7200/7500 if you are chasing points or total wins. But my $2500 engine turns 6500, runs mid to front 5, a few times a year and makes me just as happy.


Kromulous
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 796
posted May 12, 2005 10:11 AM  
You cant critize guys for building claimer motors either. Some cant afford the best, and some get claimed alot.

If i ran IMCA, i would have the claimer motors like Xtreme posted and deal with the durability. Unless you run at the same places alot and dont need to worry about being claimed.

UMP you can throw in a little more money into them and not worry about loosing it. Since claiming in UMP is not popular.

So both engines have there good points, and bad. IMCA with the no stud girdle deal is hurting more than it helps i believe but thats my view on it as well with the flat tappers only but hey i run UMP so.

The best way to do it in UMP is build the best bottom end, callies, dyers etc. Then cheapin up on top.

Had a guy build a Dart block, callies crank and carrillo rods short block, and then put double hump heads on it. I asked what the heck did he do that for? he said he couldnt afford a good top end yet. So he would run this for a year and add good heads etc later and not have to rebuild / replace the lower end later.

He did just that and added AFR heads, Roller cam, shaft rockers, and a good Intake the following year, and now he has a top notch engine. Alot of folks could put this theory to work and gain more in the long run. If you got 4 grand to work with, build the best bottom end and cheapin up on the top end and upgrade it later down the road.


jpotter94
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 94
posted May 12, 2005 11:47 AM  
i understand both of your points exactly and i said i was just using the names as an example,i could name vertually hundreds more.i know there are alot of guys that do well with the claimer motors,and im not knocking anyone for it cause you gotta do what you gotta do,i have been there and ran them for many years then stepped up to the good motors,that is why i am able to set here and give my opinion.like somebody mentioned before if you add the money you will use in building claimer motors for ten years and then add the money you will have in GOOD motors for ten years you will save money building the good ones.claimer rods,pistons and cranks will not last like the good 4340 stuff and h-beams..not only that like i said with most any claimer motor it is more likely to let lose on any given night then the good stuff i mentioned before.like kromulouse said atleast build a good strong bottom end one year and then add the top end the next year,then you have you big motor that will last a few years and be easy on the wallet..around here most motors in the A-MODS are nowhere near claimer motors,there are a few but they are way outnumbered by good motors.now in the B-MODS there are alot of claimer motors,but even in that class we have built a few 434 and 420 engines with very good part in them.to each ones own i guess

[This message has been edited by jpotter94 (edited May 12, 2005).]

jpotter94
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 94
posted May 12, 2005 11:51 AM  
also i must add that with claimer type motors you have to be easy on the throttle and gas at alot of tracks,not many tracks are easy on stk crank and rod stuff.if your hard on the gas and stab the brake then stab back on the throttle with a claimer motor alot it will not last long at all..also one good hit to a wall and the stk cranks are done!

Kromulous
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 796
posted May 12, 2005 12:03 PM  
Heard of one guy that had a Callies Crank thats been running for 10 years. Now idea if it was true (internet) but i myself have seen 5 plus.

So the good parts are worth it in the end. As long as you do your homework, change the oil often, and replace bearings yearly that $1500 crank will live a long healthy life.

Xtreme12x
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 874
posted May 12, 2005 12:34 PM  
So your spending $8500 your cost to make 650 HP?

I can get a 434 complete intake to pan from a well known builder in my area that will put out around 650-675 HP, we owned 2 of them for $5500

jpotter94
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 94
posted May 12, 2005 01:02 PM  
xtreme-sorry i would have to see that one to beleive it,a brand new 434 for $5500,now way not with the parts i have in my engine sorry...now if it has claimer type parts and a stk block in it then i may beleive you,and if that is the case you might as well throw it in the trash.you could not build my motor for any less with the caliber of parts and work that is done to it,i have $8500 in parts and time...if i need to name everything in it and the price i can..one other thing this is 650hp on gasoline.i could put her on alky and do some tweaking and get plenty more.this is from about the only true dyno i know off around here,not some dyno that reads what you want.

[This message has been edited by jpotter94 (edited May 12, 2005).]

leapinlizard
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 402
posted May 12, 2005 01:04 PM  
You have to define "claimer engine". For $2500 you can get, Used dart heads $500, stock block and machine work $600, eagle crank for $250, eagle rods for $300, pistons for $500(several choices), that leaves $350 for gasket's and rings and pins and other misc stuff. Assemble it your self and your making 550hp at 6800 and drive it well, I don't see why this engine wouldn't last a few years. Now if you can't drive well, and you need 675 to run upfront, that a whole different topic.

dirtbuster
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 2007
posted May 12, 2005 01:09 PM  
You can get decent steel cranks for 7-800$, 1500 would get you a nice lightweight one.

You may not beleive this but we ran a SCAT lightweight crank in a 406 for 5 years before a rod failure twisted up 4 rods and you know what, all the crank needs is reground. so even some of the imported stuff holds up better than youd think.

jpotter94
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 94
posted May 12, 2005 01:36 PM  
why we are throwing numbers out there i will throw my motor parts out there,all bought new 6 nights ago.we turn this thing 7900 every night and it is 650hp on gas,trust me i could get more out of it but that would be overkill..it is a .060 block with all the bells and whistles done,we have many hours grinding the lifter valley out so oil gets to the bottom quicker,oil restrictors,screen kit,and the vent tubes.callies 4340 race master crank 3.75 stroke($1199.00),dyers 6'' top rods($1195.00),je pro dome pistons($619.00),pro topline lightning heads 235cc runners complete($750) heads done by rons porting service($500,brodix hvh intake($329) ported to the heads by myself,shaft rocker setup for these heads($699),c&s aeresol carb flows 920($999)competition product oil pan out of wichita kansas($450)best pan made in my opinion,now i am at $6121 total so far and i have not added the block work,balancing, cam,rev kit,lifters,pushrods,timing chain setup,gaskets,bearings,distributor,waterpump,valve covers,timing pointer,balancer,ect,ect..like i said we have $8500 in getting this thing together now just imagine if you had to pay for someone to put it together.

when i say claimer i say heavy crank,heavy cheap i-beam rods,and claimer hyperetic pistons.you can build claimer motors like this all day long brand new for a few thousand with dart heads,but for the price of two and a half good claimers you could have my motor.like i say you could not build a motor the caliber of mine for any less,you could if you used different parts,but then it wouldnt be the same..

[This message has been edited by jpotter94 (edited May 12, 2005).]

zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1876
posted May 12, 2005 07:57 PM  
what all did you have rons do? I am interested in having them do some work just was woundering what the 500 got for you.
also why spend all the money on a .060 motor?

jpotter94
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 94
posted May 12, 2005 08:36 PM  
the $500 from rons will only get you a VERY good port job,not a mild one either.they do great work and i recomend them to anyone.i also got mine angle milled but that was a deral we had for their name on our car..the .060 bore is a long story.this motor started out a few years ago as a 358(.040 bore X 3.48 stroke)then after running that a year we trashed the cylinder due to a cracked head,the block was too good to trash and my dad always talked about the 388 being so good,so i bored it to.060 over and put the stroke to 3.75..i have to say this is one of the strongest motors we have seen,it doesnt come off the corner like some of them but man it comes to life about midway down the straitaway and pulls twice as hard.i would never go over .060 bore after doing this one.it gets hard to keep cool sometimes but if it ever gets to bad we'll turn her loose to some alky..we have built a few 434 and a 414,and our 388 will pull with and outpull them alot of the time.they say we are crazy for twisting it as much as we do,but to each ones own..im very happy with the combo,and you dont see alot of guys with it,thats what i like..

zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1876
posted May 12, 2005 08:43 PM  
what pulleys are you running? 1:1 will help cool it on gas if you dont already have them. and thanks for thetip about rons.

Xtreme12x
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 874
posted May 13, 2005 09:07 AM  
Jpotter
Your so full of it. Ron's runs around 1000-1200 for a set of heads. Secondly our 434's were not claimers, they were USMTS motors. We won 2 nights with them until a piston broke. It seems you have spent a lot of money under the hood, in name brand parts, as in Dyers top rods, Callies crank, Je pistons, but what really makes the power? What kind of cam setup are you running? A Scat Rotating Assembly, Eagle Rotating Assembly will work just as good as what you've got in your motor for half the price, just have to make sure and mag everything when you rebuild ($20 for that around here). You can put all the money in the world in the bottom end in a limited late model motor (late model with steel heads) and there lap times are slower but you have all of this HP? Who REALLY builds your motors, your dad? If he does he knows what top dollar parts are, and I'm sure he know what makes the power, and it isn't the "Dyers Top rods, Callies Race Master Crank", and that Callies crank you have is probably weighing in at around 48 LBS. Any chinese Crank/Rod can work and work well in any race motor, you just have to double check everything. Our 434's consisted of Dart 230cc CNC Ported heads, Splayed caps, Scat 4340 Grind Balanced Crank, Eagle 6" H beam rods, JE Pistons, Total Seal Rings, Roller Camshaft (No clue who made it, wouldn't tell us), Champ Oil pan, Shaft Mount rockers. It can be done for $5500, but not with the Shaft mount rockers. Our first one was $5500, and the second with the Shaft mount rocker system and a few other things ran us about another $700. 650 HP on the dyno on Alky. You also included a carb in the motor price. Most people have there own carb to start, but you did choose a NICE piece.

As for claimer motors, a true claimer is a ticking time bomb. Trust me, I'm right here in IMCA Land and know what some of the real claimers are and what there intended for.

[This message has been edited by Xtreme12x (edited May 13, 2005).]

jpotter94
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 94
posted May 13, 2005 09:26 AM  
i beleive you are the one full of it,rons charges $1200 for a set of heads if you buy them from rons,if you send the heads you have and have the portwork i have had done it is $500,so the total of the heads and the portwork is $1250.the only way you will pay rons $1200 alone for some portwork is if you have their CNC job done.dont tell me im the one with their heads not you.if you are so smart to beleive that a 4340 eagle crank is as good as a callies race master,you need to go back to school,and you still will not build a 434 with the equal parts like my motor has for 5500,yes you may do it with CHEAP china parts,but it isnt the same,and the china parts although better then the claimer stuff still arent that great,it will still produce the horsepower,but you better get some insurance on it.by the way most of the usmts guys are running $20,000 engines,we have a local engine here that spanked the usmts guys **** ..

jpotter94
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 94
posted May 13, 2005 09:33 AM  
also one other thing,you said most poeple have already got a carb,so what they still had to buy that carb one way or the other so you still have to add that into the sum.5500 for your descent not great 434,plus $700 for the shaft rockers,plus another $900 for a good carb.the grand total is $7100 dollars.add all the little stuff like distributor,wires,pulleys,waterpump,ect and you will have in your 434 what i have in my 388 but the difference is i have a better lower end,bout the same top end.another thing is im pulling the same horsepower with smaller cubic inch and still on gas.now who is full of it?????

[This message has been edited by jpotter94 (edited May 13, 2005).]

Xtreme12x
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 874
posted May 13, 2005 10:04 AM  
Lets get a few things straight.

First, we have owned Rons heads
Second, your crank is not "lightweight"
Third, I never said Ealge was better than a Callies
Fourth, I have prooved that we did have a 434 for that price and that HP numbers that ran very well and won races against USMTS Drivers
Fifth, Most people have One carb, one distributor, one Water pump and a set of pulleys, some have 2 of each one for the motor one for the trailer. I don't know where your getting a set of shaft mount rockers for $700. None of these top name part's make you any more power than properly clearanced Eagle or Scat parts. You fail to realize where your power is made. I don't care if you have 10,000 in the bottom end of your motor, and I have 1200, if we both have the same CAMSHAFT we are going to produce the same HP Numbers, only you have dumped 3 times what you need to spend into your bottom end to keep it together, and mine won't last as long because I used Cheap parts. Anything Forged that is prepped right will last forever.

So do you build the engines or does your dad?

FYI We used to work with a driver sponsored by Callies and I do know your "Racemaster" isn't a light crank.

[This message has been edited by Xtreme12x (edited May 13, 2005).]

zeroracing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1876
posted May 13, 2005 10:10 AM  
the reasone most locals get spanked by usmts guys is not motor, its driver and set up. boney can runs up at lakeside with the same motor that was at laraceway last year, and has lead usmts shows.

Kromulous
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 796
posted May 13, 2005 11:29 AM  
I gotta interject. I work in the jet engine field, i work with engineers at GE, metalurgist and other metals engineers. So i have some valid info on Chinese metals, and 4340 chrome moly steel.

Chinese metal is not made to ANSI specs, there close but usually they skip putting nickel in the steel / alloy among other things, or low amounts. They get away with this due to very loose import laws. What they call 4340 would actually be 5130 or worse per ANSI specs.

Now thats not to say it wont last, or even out live your racing career. The problem with Eagle and Scat is they vary alot, the tolerances on there pours is so broad some of the metal is on spec and some is way off. So there is a higher risk with one of them cranks, vs an American made per ANSI spec casting.

Add all this to there machining which ***** , and there machined in the States, my crank guy, and yes we run a Scat, cause were on a tight budget, he wont install one until he goes thru it. Which costs another 300 bucks usually, but no failures so far.

I wouldnt be running this Scat crank but we got a deal on it for a 327 steel crank and a hundo for a 47 lb Scat that needed work. Another 300 in it and now its golden we hope at least.

So your arguement is valid, Eagle and Scat will last and run a long life but the odds are lower. Your betting on about a 10 to 1 horse over the 2to1 favorite. There is just a little more risk involved is all.

[This message has been edited by Kromulous (edited May 13, 2005).]

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