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Author Topic:   break-in thoughts??
jpotter94
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 94
posted May 13, 2005 01:18 PM  
thanks for the info kromulas and backing my argument..lol..i have heard what you just said about scat and eagle from some very notable poeple,like i said the scat and eagle line are better then the claimer line,but they are not as good as the callies,lunati,crower line that we run now.i am no different then anyone else trust me,i started out with claimer stuff and this is the fourth BIG motor with the GREAT parts that i have had the pleasure of having,and i can gaurantee it is cheaper in the long run to go with the GOOD stuff,the saying you pay for what you get is very true,and took a long time for me to learn.

Kromulous
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 796
posted May 13, 2005 01:26 PM  
There is an article on cranks in the new Circle track, talks about it abit.

Our crank guy says that the Howards cranks made by BRC i believe are spot on, he really likes them. At $799.00 plus shipping, that piece of mind would be will worth it to me over the chinese metal.



jpotter94
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 94
posted May 13, 2005 01:29 PM  
xtreme-use your head,you have to buy a distributor,carb ect ect one time or another so you have to include that cost into your motor.just because you use a carb and distributor off another motor dont mean anything,you bought it one time or another it wasnt free,so no your motor pricing is incorrect.jessel shaft rockers are $699..also FYI you must not have done many motors cause i can gaurantee you that no two motors are the same,i dont give a **** if the exact same parts are used,they are never the same hp,so you better get back to the books.we have 2 motors that are built identical and they differ by 10hp.now alot of poeple dont think that is alot but when you get up into the 650hp range,10hp is alot!i build my engines,my dad does the machine work,and he builds as well.one other thing,your right my crank is not lightweight,and it is by choice.in my opinion when you give up weight you give up strength,and the fact that i run a limited late model so weight isnt a problem,thus being the reason i dont run a lightweight version.and last but not least i never said a scat or eagle peice would not creat the same power as the high buck parts,i know you can get 650hp out of the chinese parts,difference is ill never buy another crank or rods,you will so in the long run your wasting more money on motors than i am..

[This message has been edited by jpotter94 (edited May 13, 2005).]

jpotter94
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 94
posted May 13, 2005 01:37 PM  
kromulas-howards cranks are good peices,they are about equal to a callies dragon slayer which for the price is also a really good crank.

also on the usmts deal,out of both times they have come to the track,our local steve payne has put a whoopin on there backside both times.might i add he runs a motor built by hovis that i freshened this season,and of course dirtworks chassis.mark birgdorf has also done very well against them at our track,i actually think usmts still owes our track $2500 bucks is why they havent been back..

Kromulous
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 796
posted May 13, 2005 01:40 PM  
That dealer cost on the Jesel's? I couldnt touch the race series ones for that, cost me $900 at least.

Good alternative, i hear, is the Yella Terra versions, supposed to be well made, and there made in Australia, not China. There $699.00 plus shipping and there quite a few dealers in the states.

jpotter94
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 94
posted May 13, 2005 04:15 PM  
kromulas the shaft mount rockers i can get most anywhere starting at 699.00 for the jessel super stock shaft rockers.part number is jeskss336050..that is for the std offsets and 1.5/1.6 mixed,the shim kit i can get for $30 more dollars.if you need to know where i get them let me know ill give you some phone numbers kromulas.so xtreme once more i have proven i know what im talking about and your numbers are incorrect.

jtno6
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 87
posted May 14, 2005 09:43 AM  
you guy are crazy , and i love it . i know a guy that runs a small motor and has less then 3500 in it, and run in the front at a lot of tracks.know the motor builder sponsers him. ,and he turn it less then 7000rpms. in fact he runs a 5.29 gear at la raceway. in a mod its all about set up not motor. face it the tires we run a JUNK and very small(imca g-60)

Kromulous
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 796
posted May 14, 2005 09:43 PM  
You guys having luck witht the Jesel SS series shaft rockers? I was told to stay away from them in racing (oval track) situation.

Although in our Mod we rarely crank ours over 7500 rpm.

eenfield
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 116
posted May 15, 2005 09:46 AM  
Are Ohio cranks made totally in the USA, or are they cast/forged over seas, and machined here? They seem to have some really good deals at their web site...www.ohiocrank.com

outlawstock17
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1363
posted May 15, 2005 01:42 PM  
Outlaw, I don't doubt it. But, Please, not in public.

[This message has been edited by True Blue (edited May 16, 2005).]

Raz_900
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 635
posted May 16, 2005 08:44 PM  
<---- Kicks back with some popcorn

True Blue
Dirt Moderator

Total posts: 33
posted May 16, 2005 09:27 PM  
Anyone ever read the box under the blue log in bar?

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sdhnc29
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 934
posted May 16, 2005 11:51 PM  

Now that this post has finally been moderated, I'll offer my opinion on the original question. Regardless of US or Chinese internals, engines should be broken in on a dyno (engine or chassis) if it is in a persons budget and time frame to do so. Of course this is ideal, and we can't all afford or take the extra time to have the "ideal" break-in.

After initial break-in, and I assume we all know the std. procedure for that, the engine should be loaded. With today's modern piston ring's, there is virtually no time involved in "seating the ring's" (assuming that everyone is up to date and no longer using cast ring's). However seating the ring's properly requires the engine to be under a load. If anyone has ever seen this done on a dyno, then they know that there can be as much as 40-50HP gain between the very first pass and the 3rd or 4th pass, with no changes other than seating the ring's. This can not be accomplished by "free revving" the engine in ones garage. In fact it is never advisable to free-rev an engine that is not under a load. Simply rapping the throttle does nothing other than make a lot of noise.

For those who do not have access to a dyno of any type, then your engine should be loaded at the track the first time you go. Generally hot lap's is a good time to do this, and the ring's will be seated within a lap or two, provided everything was done correctly by your machinist. This means go to the track and race it like you stole it! Your engine would go through the same thing on an engine or chassis dyno.

Steve

------------------
Hendren Racing Engines
Rutherfordton , NC
(828)286-0780
www.hendrensracingengines.com
www.experienceodessa.com

Kromulous
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 796
posted May 17, 2005 07:46 AM  
Steve,

Just so i understand you on break in procedures. Could you outline a proper intial start up, break in and ring seat procedure please?

Here is what were going to do, our latest motor just being finished now, is our best yet, and most exspensive to date (about 4k in it, and alot of help from friends). So we dont wanna screw it up.

With the engine primed, and fresh oil (Penzoil racing oil) were going to start it, get the fuel pressure set and shut it down after it reaches about 200*.

Change the oil, filter. Check for any metal or other contaminants.

Go to the track, start it, warm it up to 180* or so (before hot laps), blanket it (to keep the heat in).

Then go Hot lap and pound on it.

This seems to be on track with what your saying, or did i miss something?

Thanks, Krom.

Kromulous
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 796
posted May 17, 2005 10:33 AM  
ok, just being alittle more cautous with this one, the most money we ever spent on an engine to date. Now that i think about it, i dont want to let that cause us any undue problems either.

Maybe i'll take the car out, and drive it around on the street at various RPM's (1000 to 2500 RPm range maybe) after the intial oil change, timing recheck and re-running the valves and before we hit the track. Shut it down after it reaches 200* or so maybe.

Just to get a little load on it and help seat the rings etc.

sdhnc29
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 934
posted May 17, 2005 01:37 PM  
Kromulous,

The break-in procedure that you have planned is exactly how I would do it. The only exception would be the break-in oil that you use, if you have a flat tappet cam. If your running a flat tappet cam, solid or hydraulic, then you should use Shell's Rotella diesel oil. You would use the 15w-40 oil. For several years now, the government has made oil companies remove sulfur from their oil's for gasoline burning engines for emission reasons. However diesel oil and engines are not bound to the same laws. So the Rotella oil has a high sulfur content, which is an added lubricant, and assist's in cam break-in. This helps eliminate flat cam's on break-in. If you use this oil, then simply follow the rest of your plan after initial break-in.

Steve

------------------
Hendren Racing Engines
Rutherfordton , NC
(828)286-0780
www.hendrensracingengines.com
www.experienceodessa.com

spray004
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 29
posted May 17, 2005 01:54 PM  
Ok I tried replying once and it never showed up so here goes again. Would ya'll recommend synthetic oil for break in or after the break in period? Would there be a problem if the engine is broke in with conventional oil and ran afterwards with synthetic?

29
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 21
posted May 17, 2005 01:54 PM  
You will find varying opinions on that. Many swear that synthetic is the way to go (and it may be), but if you take care of your stuff and change the oil frequently, regular oil works fine too.

spray004
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 29
posted May 17, 2005 02:09 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by 29:
You will find varying opinions on that. Many swear that synthetic is the way to go (and it may be), but if you take care of your stuff and change the oil frequently, regular oil works fine too.


Most of the articles I have read, state that you'll gain a few extra hp and have extra protection with synthetic oil.

[This message has been edited by spray004 (edited May 17, 2005).]

Kromulous
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 796
posted May 17, 2005 02:12 PM  
Were running an all roller this year, but i will keep that in mind for the 434 thats going together later this year (flat tapper iron head motor).

dirtbuster
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 2007
posted May 17, 2005 02:31 PM  
Use conventional oil for breakin, especially with flat tappets. It helps the cam and rings wearin faster. I have heard with rollers you can start with synthetic but rings take longer to seat in, if it were me id use conventional for all breakins. We will usually do breakin and then a night or 2 on conventional oil before swithcing.

Without a doubt i think there is an advantage to synthetic. Not only will you get better lubrication over a longer period of time, but you will gain a small amount of HP as well. Will you notice it on the track? no. Will you notice it in oil temps? maybe. Will it protect your engine better under high heat and load, yes.

sdhnc29
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 934
posted May 17, 2005 02:34 PM  

jpotter94

Yeah you guy's seamed to get a little off the topic to your original post ;-) I'll try and answer your questions one by one, with no favoritism to your opinion or to Xtreme12x's opinion. My answer's are based simply on what I know to be true from my experience.
---------------------------------
"now what would it cost if i had this motor built by you guys,and with the list of parts i have gave you that is in my motor was this well money spent?"

In my opinion, yes the money that you spent on the part's you used was well worth the investment. Personally I do not care for this particular bore/stroke combo, but to each his own. There are also part's that I would have used different, but this is based more on companies that I deal with vs. companies that you might deal with directly.

As for cost if I built this combo, I'm not sure without sitting down and pricing it out. However you mentioned in previous post's that this is your cost to build your own engine, and from what I am understanding you are in the business to sell engines also. So the $8,500.00 at your cost to yourself, is not at customer cost. At customer cost I would expect to see this particular engine come out somewhere above $10,000.00. Your engine sound's like a good economical, solid engine.

-------------------------------------

"also what is your opinion on the eagle,scat,speedway,prc line of things compared to the callies,lunati,jet,bryant,ect,ect.."

My opinion on Chinese part's is and will remain the same, they are inferior to USA made component's. However the reason they are so popular is because of their price, and not their quality or life span. It's the same difference buying a piece of furniture at Wal-Mart, vs. Broyhill. Many people are willing to buy the cheaper product, due to budget, and live with the life span. I see nothing wrong with this, if a person must do this due to budget constraints. However there is now starting to be more and more USA made engine components that are comparable in price, and twice the quality if a guy knows where and what to get. This is where an engine builder must help his customer.

As for Callies and Bryant, they are two of the best cranks made. Bryant of course being the cream of the crop. Lunati does not make their own cranks, and have in the past bought their cranks from the likes of Cola, BRC, LA Ent., and I might be wrong, but I think even Callies at one point. I do not know who is making their cranks for them now. JET cranks were actually Japanese forging's that were imported to the USA, and I have not seen one in many year's. The crank manufacturers that make their own cranks here in the USA are Bryant, Callies, Crower, King, Cola, LA Ent., and BRC if they are still around. Hank The Crank is buying cranks from Callies and selling them as his own now.

The Chinese cranks and rod's that are on the market today are mostly made in China and finished here on the popular brand's. However this is not the same quality metal as US cranks and rod's, nor is the machine work even close to US manufactured part's. Even though the finish work is done here, most of these companies sublet the finish work to the lowest bidder, and some finish the product's in house. However the quality is not comparable.

---------------------------------------

"now my opinion on this motor compared to the china line is your getting strength,reliability,and longevity out of the BETTER line of parts,thus the reason i spent a little more money on the good stuff.now to me $8500 isnt alot of money for the level of parts in this motor."

Personally I agree with this statement. I have always been of the mindset, to spend your dollar once and wisely. However there are applications and budget's where this is not possible. I can disagree with someone's choice of part's that they are using, but I can not put them down for doing what they have to do, or doing what someone they believe is telling them is best. For claimer type engines, I would not use anything that I valued in an engine like this. If it's an engine that a man plan's to hang onto for a long time, then I'd use good part's.

---------------------------------------

"now i have heard you guys have a 800hp limited late model motor,so would you have used the eagle,scat,speedway or prc line in your motor?"

Whomever said 800hp from a limited engine that we built is not correct. Our super late model engines, 388ci-399ci SB2.2 head's, produce 800-834hp depending on head, intake, and cam combo. Our steel limited engines which are Dart or Bowtie block, 357-363ci, big bore/ 3.335" stroke,Iron Eagle 215cc unported head's, roller cam, etc., produce 630-640hp on average. Our SPEC head engines that we build consist of the same block's, same cubic inches, but we use 3.260"-3.280" stroke Bryant cranks with 283 mains, and Honda rod journals, piston guided Carrillo rod's. Our latest version of this engine produced 666hp on the dyno last week. This is with less compression ratio than our steel head engines! So the light weight part's are worth extra power as we have been finding out over the past few year's. Anyway, were are not quite close to 800hp on a limited engine yet ;-)

No I do not use any of the Chinese part's that you listed in any of my engines. But I do not build claimer style engines. If I did build claimer engines, then I probably would use the cheapest part's possible with reliability still in mind.

Hope this answer's your questions. I am not taking sides in this argument because I see both point's. So I don't want either of you to tell the other one "I told you so".

Steve


------------------
Hendren Racing Engines
Rutherfordton , NC
(828)286-0780
www.hendrensracingengines.com
www.experienceodessa.com

jpotter94
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 94
posted May 17, 2005 03:13 PM  
thanks for the info steve,i cannot remember where i heard you guys produced 800hp on a limited motor,maybe i was mistaking it for a super late motor..either way i just wanted to get a BIGGER engine builders view.for years we were on a tight budget,we have three cars and not enough sponsors so for a while we had to use cheaper parts and pick and chose the ones we thought we would get the most time out of.like i said i dont knock anyone for using the cheaper stuff cause lets face it some poeple crimp and save to get what they got and cant compete with some of the higher buck guys,ive been there and even though i have a descent motor,it still isnt that of some of the guys we run with.just in the last few years i have been able to buy the better stuff for my engines,with reliability,strength,and longevity in mind to try and make it easier on the wallet.there are guys out there that blow 3 and 4 motors a season,if they had spent the money wisely that they had in 4 engines they could have had one that last a few years.xtreme and i have spoken personally and understand each others stand point,if we all had the same opinions then we would not get this much use out of these websites.again thanks for you expertise.

Eljojo
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 968
posted May 17, 2005 03:46 PM  
.....and I started not to even click on this thread....
Thanks Steve Hendrens
Thanks Snowman

speedy46
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 165
posted May 17, 2005 07:51 PM  
i was told by the owner of bullet racing cam's to NEVER EVER use syntectic oil on a flat tappet motor the reason is the lifters and cam make to much friction and it breaks down the syntectic oil so unless you are running a roller motor DO NOT use syntectic he recomended using any good racing oil i like valvoline racing 20-50 cause they still have zinc in it with a wix 51061R filter

Raz_900
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 635
posted May 17, 2005 09:17 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by speedy46:
i was told by the owner of bullet racing cam's to NEVER EVER use syntectic oil on a flat tappet motor the reason is the lifters and cam make to much friction and it breaks down the syntectic oil so unless you are running a roller motor DO NOT use syntectic he recomended using any good racing oil i like valvoline racing 20-50 cause they still have zinc in it with a wix 51061R filter

Hunh? Either that guys an idiot or you switch some things around.

Synthetic oil can take about 5 times the pressure (give or take) of a conventional oil without breaking down. So if Syn breaks down, dino oil would be totally uncapable of working.

The thought of the cautious or un-oil-educated is that Syn oil is TOO slippery and doesn't permit ANY friction between the lifter and cam. Thus the lifter doesn't rotate. Of course that's been proven false a hundred times over.

** Makes note to self not to use Bullet. **


fastbuicks
Dirt Newbie

Total posts: 1
posted June 09, 2005 01:03 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by Kromulous:
I gotta interject. I work in the jet engine field, i work with engineers at GE, metalurgist and other metals engineers. So i have some valid info on Chinese metals, and 4340 chrome moly steel.

Chinese metal is not made to ANSI specs, there close but usually they skip putting nickel in the steel / alloy among other things, or low amounts. They get away with this due to very loose import laws. What they call 4340 would actually be 5130 or worse per ANSI specs.

Now thats not to say it wont last, or even out live your racing career. The problem with Eagle and Scat is they vary alot, the tolerances on there pours is so broad some of the metal is on spec and some is way off. So there is a higher risk with one of them cranks, vs an American made per ANSI spec casting.

Add all this to there machining which ***** , and there machined in the States, my crank guy, and yes we run a Scat, cause were on a tight budget, he wont install one until he goes thru it. Which costs another 300 bucks usually, but no failures so far.

I wouldnt be running this Scat crank but we got a deal on it for a 327 steel crank and a hundo for a 47 lb Scat that needed work. Another 300 in it and now its golden we hope at least.

So your arguement is valid, Eagle and Scat will last and run a long life but the odds are lower. Your betting on about a 10 to 1 horse over the 2to1 favorite. There is just a little more risk involved is all.

[This message has been edited by Kromulous (edited May 13, 2005).]



Well put...we are in metal business also. Import 4340 is not US certified 4340. Hardness check an import bolt compared to US certified version...no contest. Carrillo copies from China won't Rockwell test much more than stock GM material. Crower Sportsman I-beam is billet compared to Carrillo copy material. Spend another $250 for the Crower/Lunati/Callies/Howards low-budget 4340 cranks and you have twice the piece that China offers. Anyone running the import stuff for long durations is just luckly...the engine supply houses take back a high percentage of rods/cranks from China, ask them how many US parts are returned. Very low percentage vs. sold inventory.


mfcracing
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 30
posted June 13, 2005 07:39 AM  
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jpotter94:
[B]mfracing-i do need your adress i seemed to have lost the shipping receipt from shipping the gear,just a little miscomunicating on both parts,have a good en...

Sorry to bust in on this post again... But here we are a month later and no $$$$$ Joey.... What's the deal? You have my address, it was sent to you and you acknowledged it.... Do you not have the $60 or what??? I thought maybe there was a problem with our emails, but I'm beginning to think you just like ripping people off....

[This message has been edited by mfcracing (edited June 13, 2005).]

mfcracing
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 30
posted June 16, 2005 06:10 AM  
Hello?

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