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Author Topic:   concrete in the block ???
mekomod51
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 42
posted January 27, 2005 04:15 PM  
Have, anyone tried the Hard Krete in the block the instructions say to fill the block, almost all the way on water jacket of the block.

Has anyone done this ? If so did work without overheating ?

The instructions say run an oil cooler which I am going use.

Any info is appreciated.
Thanks

donslink1
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 318
posted January 27, 2005 05:01 PM  
the only people I have heard running this is drag racers, Runner and shutter down.
I wouldnt trust it in a circle track car.

cornerstone33
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 9
posted January 27, 2005 07:42 PM  
If you're running on alky, you shouldn't have any cooling issues. We fill some blocks to just above the frost plugs. Depending on cyl. wall thickness and horsepower levels, "rockin" the block can be very beneficial. Make sure you do it before machining!! P.S. If you're running gas, don't do it.

donslink1
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 318
posted January 27, 2005 08:24 PM  
wow, learn something new everyday

sdhnc29
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 934
posted January 27, 2005 10:43 PM  
I must agree completely with donslink1. Why exactly would anyone want to fill their block up 1/2 way, all the way, or in any way? There are a few different theories and reasons that people come up with for doing this.

The first is because they need to grind into water for rod clearance on long stroke cranks. Of course in my opinion, if you need to do this then your crank and rod's do not belong in a stock 9" standard pan rail block. But if you insist on trying to stuff it in a stock pan rail block anyway, then I can see filling maybe an inch at the most.

The second common idea for doing this is to strengthen the cylinder walls by filling the block half way up the bores. Let's examine what this does, other than add weight to the block, and take away cooling capacity. Well......it really does nothing. Combustion takes place at the top of the cylinder, not half way down or at the bottom of the cylinder. So if there is going to be a cylinder wall issue, cracking, bulging, etc, then this will happen when and where the most pressure is created. How many cracked or bulged cylinder walls has anyone seen, that were at the bottom of the bore?? Of course this question does not include blown up engines that had a rod smack the bottom of the bore.

Concrete in blocks has been done for years in drag racing. This was most common a very long time ago when stock blocks were most commonly used. The blocks would be filled to just about the top of the block, and the engine would be run as a "dry" block. This was most commonly done, due to the demand for larger bore block's. In other word's the cylinder walls were too thin to support themselves, and the block needed to be made solid to accomplish the large bore sizes that were being used in stock blocks. Of course this is very rare to see now with all of the aftermarket steel blocks. As well, there are many aluminum blocks that already come as dry blocks from manufacturers. Drag racers can get away with running dry block's due to the actual run time as donslink1 mentioned already.

One major drawback that I see is the loss of cooling capacity if you fill your block 1/2 way. Horse Power creates heat, the more Horse Power, the more heat you will produce. This is well known by all. So...... lets take 2 identical circle track engines that run alcohol, one with the full water capacity, the second with a half filled block, and half of the water capacity. Let's say they both can produce 700hp, potentially on an engine dyno. Which engine will run warmer on lap 50, with all thing's the same( i.e. fuel system, fuel, jetting, timing, air/fuel ratio, etc)?? On a 15 second dyno pull, both might produce the same power, and both might run the same temp for 15 seconds. But we go to the race track on a warm Midwestern or Southern afternoon when the humidity is high, and it's a brisk 95 degree's outside, and the half filled block wants to run warmer in the car under a load for several laps, due to the fact that we have less cooling capacity. So what do we do with our alky burning engine?? We fatten her up to cool her back down so we can race without getting too hot. So what does it do when we fatten up an alky engine to the point where we use the alcohol to help cool our engine?? Yes your right we lose power, both torque and horse power. Ok then, which engine is producing more power during every lap of the main event, the unfilled engine with the correct air/fuel ratio, or the half filled block that we fattened up so we could cool it enough to race??

Concrete in blocks is something that had to be done for certain drag race applications. It does not need to be, nor should it be done in any circle track engine. Of course you will have people explain that it can be done, should be done, must be done, etc. But ask why they do it, what purpose it serves, what the expansion rate of concrete vs. cast iron is, and what they are gaining other than weight?? The most common answer is.........."it helps to support the bores by not letting them flex, and it helps add support to the main web's". Well I think we covered the first part of the answer above. I would think that the main web part of the answer should be pretty obvious to everyone as well.

Anyway, good luck.

Steve

------------------
Hendren Racing Engines
Rutherfordton , NC
(828)286-0780

Mell00
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 88
posted January 28, 2005 09:50 AM  
Actually you are just plain wrong. Hard block fills up many circle track blocks with increased performance, longevity and reduced wear. All without hurting the cooling of the engine, gas or alcohol. Some of the most powerful cast iron cirlce track engines in the U.S. are using hard block. Nothing personal but turning your opinion into fact and telling everyone here that your opinion IS fact is wrong. Opinions are ok and very welcome but please don't mislead people by saying your way is the only way.

paulickr
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 110
posted January 28, 2005 11:08 AM  
make hot, go boom!!!!!!!!!!!
mo money,mo money,mo money!!!!

mekomod51
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 42
posted January 28, 2005 11:16 AM  
Steve, thanks for the info. I am running into problems already is the reason I made the post and wanted info. I have claimer motor with a late model 60 over block. My engine builder insisted that filling the block almost all the way up would be the way to go to prevent core shift. However he said I would need to intstall an oil cooler, which I have done.

Needles to say I am having issues right off the bat. The water temp never seems to get over 190 even after idling for 15 to 20 minutes which is great......however the oil temp is the problem, I have watched the gauge creep up to 240 and then I of course shut it down to keep it from buring up.

I have contacted the engine builder about and he does not seem to concerned and says that once I get on the track the air going thru the oil cooler will bring the temp down, I really have my doubts about this as you stated on the track the engine is only gonna get hotter and so will oil temp in my humble opinion.

Now I am thinking I better try to find another 60 over block somewhere to put all the stuff in.

Any suggestions or constructive comments

nw15
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 28
posted January 28, 2005 11:56 AM  
Do you need more piston to wall clearance with a half filled block?????

leapinlizard
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 402
posted January 28, 2005 12:23 PM  
Oil temps are a product of oil clearances. At least mostly. I would check the rods and mains and oil pump clearances.

mekomod51
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 42
posted January 28, 2005 01:53 PM  
Thanks for the tips, I will does this upon pulling the motor, the oils psi is good no matter the oil temp.


dode
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 613
posted January 28, 2005 02:59 PM  
Wow, talk about a mess. you have to have a oil cooler and electric fan, by time your done you will need an alternator to run all your stuff, it just seems easier to run water, how do you measure temp on a block that does not have a flow of anything, you are only measuring it in one spot. I dont see it being an advantage in a circle track car

sdhnc29
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 934
posted January 28, 2005 03:21 PM  
mekomod51,

No problem. I'll be willing to wager that if you change block's, your oil temp will drop.

Mell00,

At what point in my statement did I mention the word "fact"?? I seam to remember asking questions in what I wrote, and also offering the information that I know about this subject. I am curious though, what are the most powerful cast iron block circle track engines in the U.S.? Are we talking Nextel Cup engines, something like asphalt open modified's, a dirt late model with a cast iron block, a 360 sprint car that must use a cast iron block?? These to me would be the most powerful cast iron block circle track engines in the U.S. today. I see many Cup block's each week, and I've never seen any with filler in the water jackets. So I guess all these teams are missing the boat when it comes to performance. With all of the their millions of dollars that they spend each year on research and development, I would think that I would have at least seen one Cup block that had been filled.

Let's take this next statement from Hardblok's own web site. This is their own warranty statement.
http://www.hardblok.com/info.html
"WARRANTY: No warranty is stated nor implied due to operating extremes in race engines and manufacturer's inability to control installation. Manufacturer is not responsible for any cooling problems that may result from filling water jackets. User is responsible for determining suitability of product for intended use. All risk and liability connected with use of the product is assumed by user."

Please note the part about not being responsible for cooling problems that result from filling water jackets.

So if your drag racing, then fill away. But I will stick to my statement about filling circle track engines. And if there has been a misleading statement made in this open discussion, I don't think it's been from me. But thanks for turning my opinion into fact for me. I'm not quite sure how you came to this conclusion, since I never stated "this is a fact".

Steve

------------------
Hendren Racing Engines
Rutherfordton , NC
(828)286-0780

nw15
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 28
posted January 28, 2005 03:21 PM  
i know i asked this before but will try again...Do you need more piston to wall clearance with a half filled block?????

mekomod51
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 42
posted January 28, 2005 04:28 PM  
According to the engine builder yes to the piston clearance and that was done.

Ok well, the oil cooler I have now has no fan. I may try one with a fan, but I think its good money after bad. Just dont like having to pull motor out even before the first race.

Well He((, I guess I will try some of the machine shops around me and see if I can come up with a 60 over two bolt block and then get it machined.


I would never take a known good block and have it punched 60. So I will have to try and find one that will clean up at 60.


Engine builder says go try it....heard this before, I ran the motor in the shop for about 15 to 2o minutes and already the oil is too hot, gotta believe it will do the same at the track.



juliaferrell
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 370
posted January 28, 2005 07:15 PM  
Hardblok is ok when you use it as intended. The primary part of the chamber for cooling is the top 1 to 1.5 inches. I've filled several with "short pours" and with the engines I'm building they won't last 6 races without it. Just my 2 cents. Just figured I would add that.


Istock66
unregistered Total posts: 370
posted January 28, 2005 07:58 PM           send a private message to juliaferrell   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/QuoteBBBBBB
240 oil temp is not hot...

when I first installed a oil temp gauge it took me installing a heat exchanger to get the oil temp low enough to not peg the gauge, i mounted the sender in multiple places and tried multiple gauges thinking that was the problem.

this was a good motor that was used before installing the guage, it took a heat exchanger and full synth to get down to 200-240 range.

6pack
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 171
posted January 29, 2005 06:27 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by mekomod51:
According to the engine builder yes to the piston clearance and that was done.

Ok well, the oil cooler I have now has no fan. I may try one with a fan, but I think its good money after bad. Just dont like having to pull motor out even before the first race.

Well He((, I guess I will try some of the machine shops around me and see if I can come up with a 60 over two bolt block and then get it machined.


I would never take a known good block and have it punched 60. So I will have to try and find one that will clean up at 60.


Engine builder says go try it....heard this before, I ran the motor in the shop for about 15 to 2o minutes and already the oil is too hot, gotta believe it will do the same at the track.


I believe the poster that recommended the fan meant to try a household type fan or a "blue blower" type fan to blow air through the cooler to simulate what would happen when the car is in motion to see if the oil temp dropped.


dirtracer14
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 1261
posted January 29, 2005 06:40 PM  
Did you check the oil temp before adding the hard block....I had to fill a block once only because it was cracked from freezing lasted about 35 races in a mod on allky till it leaned and burnt top of piston(cast) he didnt have much heating problems unless we had to sit after racing and idle.

hughes
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 194
posted January 31, 2005 06:56 AM  
In my opinion if sdhnc29 says "Do it or Don't do it" then it is fact. I have watched Steve post on here for atleast 2 years and he would not steer you in the wrong direction. I appreciate him taking his time to answer questions. Mell00 needs to sit back, listen and then speak without taking personal jabs at the top dog. Thanks Steve for helping the rest of us out.

juliaferrell
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 370
posted January 31, 2005 10:09 AM  
I agree with Bill also. I'm talking building other types of engines.....non V8 stuff...........Its made for a specific purpose....Just have to keep in mind that its out there to keep some out of a jam..

brownstone
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 284
posted January 31, 2005 11:12 AM  
mekomod's computer bit the dust but I talked to him and he is gonna try the putting a fan across the oil the cooler in the shop to simulate air coming thru it on the track, and see what what happens.
hopefully he will get his computer going again and let us know.

Ego Racing
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 724
posted February 03, 2005 02:02 PM  
Steve I have almost always agreed with your posts but we have been running a partial fill on our engines for almost 20 years and have not had any problems with heating. We were even running a 16:1 small motor turning 8500rpm. WE DO NOT FILL PAST THE BOTTOM OF THE FRONT FREEZE PLUGS!!! most of the time we are below the plug holes. As for the Mfg warranty almost any racing company states that there product is not warrantied for racing. The new Mastersbuilt and Rocket late models even have a warranty and liability label on the chassis.

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