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Author Topic:   Motor oiling problem..... help please...(Long)
STOCK64
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 23
posted December 13, 2004 06:45 PM  
Ive got a Chevy 6" 355ci, dart heads (64cc), 13:1 comp., roller tip rockers, scat crank.
with everything else is pretty standard.

The problem that Im having is I cant get any oil to the top of the motor (rockers). I had restrictors in it, took them out. When we went to start it we primed the motor for a long time... 20 min...at least... some oil came out a few of the rockers, not many but the oil pressure gauge showed a good 45- 50 lbs when priming... we ran this motor and just blued the rocker balls and scorched the oil that was there really bad...we had great oil pressure 60-70 lbs...at idle...The bearing looked great after tear down...
So last year we changed blocks, oil pumps, cam and lifters, rockers. During
pre-assembly we triple checked the oil passages.. blew them out to make sure nothing was blocking them...blew out all the push tubes... We took every precaution that we could think of durning assembly... We then put it on the engine run stand and same exact thing... we had a hard time priming the oil to the top again... tried turning the motor over to help it...it didn't help... we fired it up... great oil pressure... ran it about 20 minutes.... it blued the new rockers just like that... and started to burn them too... thats with pre-lube and everything, they were dryer than popcorn...checked valve lashes...they were fine... im out of ideas... please help.. this motor is useless this way...
thanks...

Xtreme12x
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 874
posted December 13, 2004 07:05 PM  
its your pushrods

ctfarm
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 206
posted December 13, 2004 07:06 PM  
Sounds like your rear cam bearing is installed wrong.



thirty2rocksu
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 18
posted December 13, 2004 09:19 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by ctfarm:
Sounds like your rear cam bearing is installed wrong.


open valve spring pressure is probably to high, when you get close to 330lbs this will happen, are you running tall or short valve covers

thirty2rocksu
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 18
posted December 13, 2004 09:30 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by thirty2rocksu:
open valve spring pressure is probably to high, when you get close to 330lbs this will happen, are you running tall or short valve covers

one more thought,,,,,check oil hole location on the side of the lifter,,,,,have seen them way to high or low and have even seen some without.

maniac motors
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 128
posted December 14, 2004 04:03 AM  
nobody mentioned the 1/2 inch galley plug in the rear main above crank in block.have seen it happen before and also if front oil galleys arent tapped for pipe plugs have seen them come out.

dirtbuster
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 2007
posted December 14, 2004 08:13 AM  
Sounds like you might be pushing the limits of stock type rockers. Are the pivot balls grooved to let oil in under them? If not there might be enough spring pressure that oil just cat get under them to lube them properly.
Or are you not getting oil to the rocker at all? Is it possible the oiling hole in the rocker and the tip of the pushrod are never lining up and letting oil flow to the rocker. Just thinking that if you have longer than stock valves with stock pushrods or some other way your rocker geometry is off they may not be matching up. Or maybe it is letting oil out but it is squirting it up and over the pivot ball assembly. Some older rocker covers had baffles in them to catch oil and drip it back on the rocker assembly. Like a previous poster said maybe your covers are too tall and the oil is not hitting them and splashing back on the rocker.



autoshop
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 298
posted December 14, 2004 10:11 AM  
Did the same person assemble the block both times? just a guess either you have a cam bearing is installed wrong or you have a galley plugs missing or scr**ed in to far in the front.

Todchester
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 23
posted December 14, 2004 02:22 PM  
Check to see if the oil hole in the rocker lines up with the hole in the pushrod. Incorrect length pushrods can cause this.

wrench1
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 6
posted December 14, 2004 03:32 PM  
Make sure someone hasn't tapped and installed restrictors in the two lifter galley ports behind the rear cam bearing.

STOCK64
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 23
posted December 14, 2004 07:31 PM  
Thanks everybody for the suggestions...
- All the pushrods where checked for straightness and blown through to make sure there wansnt anything in them.
- The same person (father) did build both motors.. plus hundreds of other... and have only lost one motor ever that he put together because of a cracked head (hydro-locked).. I watched him put the rear cam bearings in both motors... it was the way hes always done them... and we checked to make sure that the holes in the bearing were right over the oil runner in the cam boss.. so i dont think the rear cam bearing was in to far or not far enough... and he always turns the holes in the bearings so to not line up with were the oil comes in... ( to force the oil around the bearing... but i will recheck this again when we pull it back apart again.
- The spring pressures are 330lbs open, and like 130 lbs closed.. single springs with dampners.. good up too .600 lift.. nothing crazy.. the cam is pretty small ( i run imca stockcar with the 350 cfm carb... my lift is around 540-560 somewhere in there...)
-the valves are stock length i think... ill have to check that also.. and make sure the pushrod holes line up with the rocker holes... we do get a few of the rockers to get oil when priming, but it takes forever and never all of them.. we never have that problem on other motors..
-we run the tall valve covers, but have the baffles that bolt right on top of the rockers to deflect the oil down on top of the rockers...
- the rocker balls are grooved.. the rockers are the aftermarket heat treated roller tipped rockers by competition cams... i think thats who makes them...
-as far as the oil galley plugs... we tap them so that the plug is just about flush.. not quite... so not to go in to far... but i will check them also agian after we dis-assemble it...
- we tightened up the crank clearences to try to help also...
-when priming we get very little oil if any to the top.. after running it... the middle balls seemed to be burnt worse than the end ones.... both sides...

these are some great ideas... keep them coming, i really appreciate it... Just wish i didnt have to tear it down again...lol and waste the gaskets... o-well... thats racing, huh....lol

thanks again everybody...
-

[This message has been edited by STOCK64 (edited December 14, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by STOCK64 (edited December 14, 2004).]

Donnie Ross
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 264
posted December 14, 2004 08:15 PM  
is the same dist. being used on both engines,I'm not totally sure but I believe the groove in the dist housing directs the oil to the lifter galleries? maybe something wrong with the housing or installed hieght? hope this helps,also when you prime are you using an old dist to turn the pump or some thing else?

STOCK64
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 23
posted December 14, 2004 08:37 PM  
yeah we used the same dist. in both motors...hmm have to check that also..
and yeah we use an old dist. and a 1/2"
drill to turn it...
thanks...

thirty2rocksu
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 18
posted December 14, 2004 09:45 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by STOCK64:
yeah we used the same dist. in both motors...hmm have to check that also..
and yeah we use an old dist. and a 1/2"
drill to turn it...
thanks...

you said it,,,,330 open pressure, comp says that is the maximum spring pressure those rocker arms will handle. been there and done that. i know you want that kind of pressure but that is a scrifice with using those arms. back the pressure down to around 300 and it will be fine. or change to a full blown roller rocker arm. what is the part number on the spring you are using. there are alot of springs that say they will go 600 lift, but when you chck them they are coil binding at 600.

The Flash32
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 120
posted December 15, 2004 07:19 PM  
I have just one question on this, what kind of oil filter is being used? We had the same problem with our first motor this year. Never had a problem before with Fram filters but after putting a Wix filter on, the oil came up with no problems!

STOCK64
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 23
posted December 15, 2004 08:14 PM  
all we've ever run is wix or baldwin oil filter... as far as the spring pressures these are what the cam manuf. told us to run...(all comp cam stuff... cam,springs,rockers) also when priming the motor some of the valves are completly closed...thus the rocker isn't tight to the push rods (valve lash) so the spring wouldnt have an effect on those at that point.. and those still couldn't get oil to them... i feel that is has to be that the oil is escaping to somewhere else, or plugged off some how that it cant get to the top... Im leaning towards the cam bearing or dist possibly... not sure... its really baffling... we've never had problems like this before or since on any motors we have done..... thanks again everybody...

thirty2rocksu
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 18
posted December 15, 2004 08:44 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by STOCK64:
all we've ever run is wix or baldwin oil filter... as far as the spring pressures these are what the cam manuf. told us to run...(all comp cam stuff... cam,springs,rockers) also when priming the motor some of the valves are completly closed...thus the rocker isn't tight to the push rods (valve lash) so the spring wouldnt have an effect on those at that point.. and those still couldn't get oil to them... i feel that is has to be that the oil is escaping to somewhere else, or plugged off some how that it cant get to the top... Im leaning towards the cam bearing or dist possibly... not sure... its really baffling... we've never had problems like this before or since on any motors we have done..... thanks again everybody...

what is the part number on the spring????just because comp says so dont mean it will work. when pre lubing solid lifters sometimes it is harder to get oil to the top like you want, as far as the ones with the valves being completely closed, those will be difficult because of the clearances between the lifter, pushrod, and rocker arm.
a lifter also acts as an oil pump,, when the lifter moves up and down in the bore the oil groove in the lifter along with the hole causes the lfter to pump the oil up the pushrod. the solid lifters you get these days are metered and this will hinder oil flow at low enginge speed. what weight oil are you pre- lubing with? double check your installed height on the valve springs and the open pressure. ill bet a 100 that is where the problem is, seen it to many times on imca claimer motors with the same set up you have. your dad didnt make the same mistake on two blocks with cam bearings and such.pm me and i will go furhter into detail.

mod_racer98g
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 25
posted December 28, 2004 02:47 PM  
You don't have direct lube solid lifters in it do you ???? I've had nothing but oil troubles this yr with them in.

HIT THE WALL
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 86
posted December 30, 2004 06:09 PM  
mod_racer98g
what type of oiling problems have you had with the direct lube lifter, i have had them in some motors working fine, but i have 1 motor giving me fits with oiling problems. would like to hear the problem you have been having, and why you think it is the lifters
thanks

autoshop
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 298
posted January 03, 2005 09:36 AM  
stock64 Did you find out the problem yet??

STOCK64
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 23
posted January 05, 2005 06:29 PM  
No not yet... to busy getting the car painted and ready... hopefully i'll get to the motors here soon... i will post if i find anything... thanks everyone for the help and input...

ruggs66
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 193
posted January 06, 2005 02:34 PM  
What about the three plugs that go in behind the upper timing gear?

doesn't that affect the oil travel if they are in too far?

paulickr
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 110
posted January 12, 2005 10:46 AM  
last year when building a new motor i was priming for a long,long ,long time with no results, i literally primed it for an hour or more.

i would get oil to a few but only like 3 or 4.
i discovered that the dist. i used for priming was in the bore too far and it stopped the flow to the rest of the motor, proper installation and proper distributor length is imperitive.

quote:
Originally posted by STOCK64:
yeah we used the same dist. in both motors...hmm have to check that also..
and yeah we use an old dist. and a 1/2"
drill to turn it...
thanks...


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