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Author Topic:   traction control
2wildcrewguy
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 5
posted May 27, 2002 09:30 PM
does anyone know how to truely detect if a car as it or not? what do you look for on a car if you think they have it?

jlfastride
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 79
posted May 27, 2002 09:42 PM
if your talkin' bout the multiply options on rear end locking and unlocking mechanisms. all they have to do is make a mark on both rear wheels before the feature and then afterwards they had still better line up. or be prepared for disasembly

racer17j
Dirt Forum Champ
Total posts: 885
posted May 27, 2002 11:32 PM UIN: 54865418
they did that at a track here didn't find anybody tho but it makes sence

devil wrench
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 51
posted May 29, 2002 08:54 PM
I'm pretty sure they're talking about electronic TC on the motor and not a rear differential unit.

2wildcrewguy
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 5
posted May 30, 2002 08:15 PM
i have heard something about pulling the brake lines. what is that all about?

pepsiman
Dirt Newbie

Total posts: 2
posted June 02, 2002 09:13 AM
TC works on sensor's on the rear brake rotor. If the tire starts spining the motor Cuts power.(you can also most hear it. You need to run an undetected wire to the back brake, So you run it in the Brake line. Todays updated TC Devices dont need sensor's. Its all in the MSD boxes. YOu can find out more about TC at http://www.moretraction.com/prod02.htm

mod66m
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 5
posted June 04, 2002 10:02 AM
We heard of a unit that is activated by cell phone before or during the race and then can be shut down before tech--with a cell phone.. Any body else no of such a thing?? Rumor has it that some UDTRA guys have it.. Id like to see the price tag on this piece.

2wildcrewguy
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 5
posted June 09, 2002 03:03 PM
thanks for the info so i guess it is almost imposable to detect this new traction control then

Dirt2race
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 40
posted June 10, 2002 10:59 PM
This is going to hurt some feelings, but it has to be said, all ankles bend both ways, the only thing traction control is good for is to be crutch for someone that can't control the throttle. Tires do not make any more or less traction with traction control. If you barrell off into the corner to hard, you are still going to drift and break your tires loose from G force. Everytime you do that, and mat the throttle, the TC takes horse power from your engine and I'll drive right past you every time. Learn control from entry to exit and save your self the head ache of hiding all that crap on your car, not to mention $$$$$$$. Just my 2cents worth.

mod4
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 7
posted June 11, 2002 10:11 AM
You can't out-throttle a good electronic traction control set up. As humans we can't take a wheel speed sample 500 times a second and make 500 adjustments, which is no problem for some of these systems.
A guy with a single shot rifle might be a superior marksman, but an idiot with an M-16 will still probably win the gunfight, if you get my drift?

You are exactly right about it being a crutch, but a lot of races are being won with them, unfortunately.

If a track was SERIOUS about outlawing traction control, they would specify a certain ignition box (like an MSD-6AL) mounted in a specific place with quick-connectors. Collect the boxes at sign in and have the Tech man hand them out randomly for hot laps. This would be a huge pain in the **** and nobody at a local level will do it.
And the people with enough money and no qualms about cheating will keep running it.

modman97
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 45
posted June 11, 2002 04:18 PM
I was told by an associate of mine that used this type of unit, that it really didnt benefit him on a slick track all that much,and certainly not $4000 worth. He returned it!
An easy way to rectify the problem anyway,would be a claim on the box. There arent to many legal guys out there that wouldnt mind selling there used MSD boxes for a small profit each weekend.

Dirt2race
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 40
posted June 11, 2002 11:27 PM
The best idea I have heard modman, that would sure make someone think twice to see $4000.00 or whatever those cost to walk away for $125.00. Mod4, I hear what you are saying, and I agree with 90% of it. I would have to guess that alot of races are not being won because of TC. I'm sure some are, but not many. From the corner to the straight away is generally 90 to 130 feet, and there is only 2 of them. That leaves alot of race track that TC cannot make a difference. If guys would just take a look at them selves on tape and truely evaluate there driving, they would be amazed. I love nothing more than to get behind a guy that buzzes his tires out of every corner. 9 times out of 10, if you show him a nose and back out, he drives in harder, G forces push him up the track a little and he tries to come off even harder. That guy is passed in seconds. It's the guy that slows a little and gets a good run through the middle that is immpossible to pass. I know you've had to follow one these guys, you are faster but you can't make the pass. To win a feature in most areas of the country, takes a lot of car knowledge and ability. TC might help, but it sure isn't a magic wand by any means.

mod4
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 7
posted June 12, 2002 07:14 PM
Thanks for your input. I also like the idea of a box claim, it's a great idea. I would like to offer a few points to think about:
Traction control doesn't just help "off the corner". I was hired a few years ago by a major tire company looking to get into road racing. We used the Roebling Road facility in Savanna, GA. The amount of test equipment they had was amazing(at the time-it was 1992). The data recorders showed that on dry pavement, about 8% wheelslip maintained the highest value of acceleration. In lateral acceleration the 'magic' value was about 12%. The recorders also showed that once you exceeded these number by much(2% or so), the coefficient of friction (meaning the work the tire is doing) drops off like a rock. Also interesting to me, but sorta off the subject was when a car is spinning out, the tires are still generating significant amounts of friction. Anyways.
Think about 4-wheel drifting. Think about Top Fuel drag cars (where the art of Clutch Packing IS a form of Traction Control). Tires slipping at a constant and controlled rate generate more grip then no slip at all.
In the past, only the most talented drivers were able to "work" the tires at consistant slip angles. Now you can "dial in" your wheelslip angles and plant that right foot.
Now, on a good dirt track, we operate IN the dirt - wheelspin isn't bad, it's needed. However, the moment the track slicks off ...
Well, at our track once it slicks off I can normally break the tires loose at any point. I certainly never get full throttle until the flagstand. I feel certain, like pavement, dry-slick tracks have an "ideal" amount of wheelslip. Of course good drivers work their butts off to get to the limits and keep it there - but if you can merely set "5% of slip" on your dial and floor it, and can accelerate at that value all the way down the straight - thats a HUGE advantage.
Sorry for the length of this post.

Fast132
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 19
posted June 13, 2002 08:22 AM
Nonbelievers: If you think that you can outdrive Traction Control with your right foot, I'm sorry. UDTRA's Dale McDowell won 4 or 5 in a row, and on the 5th was DQ'ed for 'an illegal' box. The official UDTRA statement did not clearly say T/C, but they fined him, confiscated the box, and put him on indefinite probation. If the UDTRA guys with more but compareable horsepower and WAY more tires got stomped by T/C, don't you think that an undertired, overpowered mod would benefit even more? (Someone was selling shirts at Eldora that had Dale McTraction on 'em)
I'm not saying it will make a rookie a winner, but it can make average exceptionally quick.
Fast132

jammin
Dirt Administrator

Total posts: 5060
posted June 13, 2002 09:09 AM UIN: 16262997
I have been watching this post for a while now...... There is only one thing I can say about TC.....

If you plant the car, you don't need it. If there is no tire slippage then you don't need it. Just take a look at your motor combinations. If your spinning the tires that bad down the straights and you have as much bite as you can get in the car, then you might need to reconfigure your engine combination to make it work better. Why do you think most guys are going to short stroke and big piston combinations? That is exactly the reason. Short stroke will lessen the initial torque and make the car easier to hook up, but the compression is high enough in the motors that it still has good torque to pull once you get the RPM's up. When it gets dry slick, how much motor do you think you need? This is legit TC, if your running a box or some other device, it is just a crutch simply because you can't get the car to do what you want it to do.

My two cents.

jammin

mod4
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 7
posted June 13, 2002 12:28 PM
I agree that Traction Control is a crutch, Jammin. But Ferrari spent 22 Million dollars getting it's Formula One traction control system perfected. In other words, when you got a broke leg, a crutch is a good friend.
'FAST132' and I race at the same track in Florida, neither one of us is overmotored I can promise you that, lol. He won the feature last time we raced and I'm leading the points. Our cars are legal (well, his body IS kinda funny looking). We both have a personal interest in finding and getting rid of guys with TC.
The part I guess we disagree with is how valuable TC is : no matter how talented a driver may be, none of us can match the perfection and repetition of a computer. Eventually we make mistakes, the box isn't going to.
I won't clog up the board anymore, I've said my piece. The suggestion of a "Ignition Box Claim" was a great idea (especially here in Florida), FAST132 and I are going to speak with our Tech Official about it.
Thanks.

mod66m
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 5
posted June 24, 2002 03:46 PM
Its summer time here in Texas and its getting real dry. If I was to break three toes in my right foot would that work??

Actually guys my thinking is this way-- You see these guys pull into the track with their toter homes and stacker trailers, they have two or three mods ready to go, and money falling out of their pockets-- why WOULDENT they have TC?? To me it would be just another piece to the equation.

redbirdtiger
Dirt Newbie

Total posts: 3
posted June 25, 2002 04:39 PM
My home track is getting their own MSD boxes that the winners will get every week, and must run it the next week. Or, atleast, that's what was told to us in the drivers meeting last week. They are just waiting on the boxes from MSD.

hiredgun
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 16
posted June 25, 2002 10:41 PM
I was told of a system thats been developed that the driver carries a tiny remote peice on him and when the race is over , out the window it goes . not sure exactly but i know someone who was approached to test it . Seems its getting harder and harder to find this stuff.
Cell phone run, satallite controlled , disposable , whats next ? ?

Announcer1
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 15
posted June 26, 2002 04:20 PM
as requested at my Bluegrass Bash by many.. I am stepping up and not only putting on a $7,000 to win Mod show on July 7th but i am also doing something NO OTHER track with a big money mod show has done before... I am Personally going to CLAIM the top 5 Boxes!! This will insure that at least the top 5 are legal and if one is found to be TC equipped they automaticly lose all money for the event! I be ****ed if someone is going to steal from me or people that support me!

My 2 cents worth!
Bluegrass Bash
July 7th
Soggy Bottom Speedway
Morgantown, KY

modman97
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 45
posted June 26, 2002 11:07 PM
Sounds great!

hiredgun
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 16
posted June 26, 2002 11:51 PM
Thats a great idea, But si that the only place to hide it.....?
just askin.

PrimeRace
Dirt Newbie

Total posts: 1
posted June 28, 2002 12:31 PM
For an overview on the current state of TC, (well, last year anyway) see www.dragracingonline.com/features/tc_1.html
Current TC units do not have to be installed in the ignition box, so managing ignition box distribution/confiscation is useless to police it at the Modified level.

fastin8
Dirt Newbie

Total posts: 2
posted June 29, 2002 11:13 AM
We have a two car team,one mod and one late model. The mod is straight up legal with a rookie driver,but the late model is equiped with a t/c system from racetronics. Neither car has a MSD box, they both run HEI systems. The t/c system we have uses wheel sensors to apply the rear breaks and is activated by the power steering. $1800 and no improvement in performance.

modman97
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 45
posted June 30, 2002 11:19 AM
I think we all know that the MSD box type TC is not the only thing out there. I am not even certain that anybody I compete with uses it. However,having the "box claim" is just another way for the drivers to police themselves. Its just yet another way of leveling the playing field for everyone.
Where I race in the northeast they dont tech the cars and have no idea of what to look for anyway. They have just started to look at safety items in the cars. For that, I am greatful.
We are IMCA sanctioned.
I have for years suggested a track tech's semminar for our region prior to the season. A couple hour workshop that could bring all the sanctioned tracks up to speed in the rulebook department. It fell on deaf ears.
Dont get me wrong, I really dont have a
problem getting beat by better race teams.
Its been happening for years!

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