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Author Topic:   Gases that contract under heat?
jammin
Dirt Administrator

Total posts: 5060
posted November 10, 2001 06:39 PM UIN: 16262997
Anyone know of a gas like nitrogen or any additive or combination that will contract under heat?


jammin

Rooster
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 117
posted November 10, 2001 11:08 PM
Whats on your mind jammin, if it's for tires just use bleeders, if it's for something else, let me in on it....LOL

jammin
Dirt Administrator

Total posts: 5060
posted November 10, 2001 11:20 PM UIN: 16262997
Always all over me.....aren't ya.

LOL


jammin

irace74
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 38
posted November 11, 2001 09:11 PM
Jammin, Nitrogen doesn't contract under heat. the simple fact is that the nitrogen has no water vapor in it. The expansion of the water vapor under heat is what causes the air pressure to increase. I do not know of any gas that contracts under heat. As molecules are heated they become more excited requiring more space therefore, expanding. Keeping an extremely expansive molecule such as water out of the system allows for better control under temperature changes.

jammin
Dirt Administrator

Total posts: 5060
posted November 11, 2001 09:18 PM UIN: 16262997
I wonder if their is a chemical of some type or mix that could achieve this.


jammin

awkwardjeff
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 390
posted November 11, 2001 09:36 PM
Jammin, Are you looking for some thing to help in the tires, or are you thinking of some thing totally different. Maybe if you explain to us what it is you are trying to achieve we could help you comeup with some thing.......But then your idea could be stolen and patented and sold back to you...LOL

I also don't know of anything that contracts under heat, only gases that expand less.
Maybe taking the heat out of what you are trying to achieve is the way to go......water cooled tires for your car, TRY THAT, and get back to us.........LOL

jammin
Dirt Administrator

Total posts: 5060
posted November 11, 2001 09:43 PM UIN: 16262997
Thanks for the constructive thought...lol.....just have an idea I want to try if I can figure out how to do it.


jammin

bogged
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 53
posted November 12, 2001 04:56 PM
jammin,

you should try jupiter gas, the same stuff they claim to use in the new golf balls. by the ad, they claim to beam it down over the internet.(ha ha)

rexalott
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 5
posted November 12, 2001 06:32 PM
Sorry to disappoint you jammin there is a basic physics principle called the Ideal Gas Law that says this is impossible. P1V1/T1=P2V2/T2...It was a good idea it just wont work.

James Birmingham
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 9
posted November 12, 2001 07:09 PM
I would assume there is some type of coating that could be applied to the wheel that would absorb free molecules as they heated up the brakes should also increase the heat in the reaction. But controling the heat would be the key to the reaction and I dont think you would be able to control that variable.
Not undoable just not very practical

Dirt2race
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 40
posted November 12, 2001 07:31 PM
Akward jeff actually had the right idea, controling the heat. It is called your right ankle. I don't think most drivers realise it goes in both directions. I know that sounds like I'm being a smart ***, but I'm really not. Look at Tom Cruise on the Days of Thunder, he went a lot faster when he listened to his coach.....LOL.....
Good Luck everybody..... and remember, WINTER BLOWS , if you're not a penguin.

[This message has been edited by Dirt2race (edited November 12, 2001).]

jammin
Dirt Administrator

Total posts: 5060
posted November 12, 2001 07:32 PM UIN: 16262997
I realize that gas expands with heat, but I wonder if there is a way for a chemical reaction to do this.

jammin

antidive
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 15
posted November 21, 2001 06:15 PM
some chemicals have exothermic reactions when mixed and generate extreme cold would this be helpful

dman60
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 41
posted November 21, 2001 09:03 PM
Let me see if I can get crazy with this. Chemically inject the tire with an agent that heats up the tire and the air in the tire BEFORE you run, then starts to cool while racing, thus keeping a consistent temperature throughout the race and fight the properties that make it gain pressure. Some variables would exist, but it's nice to set and dream up stuff huh.
Dman

6pack
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 111
posted November 21, 2001 10:32 PM
Helium expands less than Nitrogen.

jammin
Dirt Administrator

Total posts: 5060
posted November 22, 2001 09:41 PM UIN: 16262997
Hmmmm.....

jlfastride
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 79
posted November 22, 2001 10:43 PM
yeah but then you couldn't make minimum weight at the scales unless you let the helium out of your tires. lol

6pack
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 111
posted November 23, 2001 09:38 PM
Nah, fastride, you just have to throw "in" your anchor!

rjs
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 72
posted November 24, 2001 08:15 AM
Helium......Remember the Hindenburg ? Hope you have a good fire suit. Jammin here is an idea for you fill your tires 1/2 full of water, freeze them and when the water thaws under the heat from a feature it will contract and theoretically occupy less space. The water will supply extra traction (farmers put water in rear tires for years). Just don't run too long a race that boiling water would expand and there you go. Glad to see you thinking though! Good luck!
Oh by the way there may be a small vibration with ice cubes flopping around.

Deek
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 41
posted November 24, 2001 09:56 AM
The Hindenburg was full of hydrogen, not helium. Helium isn't flammable.

devil wrench
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 51
posted November 24, 2001 11:17 AM
I'll back deek on this one. Helium will put a fire out.

awkwardjeff
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 390
posted November 24, 2001 11:34 AM
Jammin, 1 question a yes or no is good enough..........people asked and you never said, you beat the bushes on this one.....
ARE WE TALKING ABOUT HEAT IN THE TIRES?

Or was that you, talking about coating the wheels with something?

How about a teflon coated body to keep the mud off the car............?????????
don't nobody steal my idea now.......I may want to sell that one..........LOL

jammin
Dirt Administrator

Total posts: 5060
posted November 24, 2001 12:17 PM UIN: 16262997
Yes Jeff....for tires....

jammin
Dirt Administrator

Total posts: 5060
posted November 24, 2001 12:23 PM UIN: 16262997
Here, I will spill it....what I was thinking...Most of the time when you are off on a set up, the tires with too much weight on them will actually get hotter than the others. If that is the case, if gases would contract under heat, then it would be possible that you could actually have the car correct itself. It would lose air pressure under heat and actually help the setup, rather than expand and make the set up worse. My thoughts.

jammin

Racer14K
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 97
posted November 24, 2001 02:24 PM
Just a joking reply jammin, but do you have a day job or do you just stay up all nite thinking this stuff up?
I think you are getting weird on us jammin.

jammin
Dirt Administrator

Total posts: 5060
posted November 24, 2001 02:29 PM UIN: 16262997
LOL.....racer always looking to improve.....never ending.....same with The Dirt Forum.

jammin

3dirtLm
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 37
posted November 24, 2001 09:13 PM
How about a remote bleeder valve controled by infrared sensors that read your tire temperatures and adjust the pressure automatically. preset each tire for temp range and hot tire will bleed off pressure there by taking weight off that wheel

jammin
Dirt Administrator

Total posts: 5060
posted November 24, 2001 10:04 PM UIN: 16262997
Is it realistic? Do you think that it is possible? Are there other ways to determine air pressure with mercury type valves or switches or something?

jammin

[This message has been edited by jammin (edited November 24, 2001).]

rjs
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 72
posted November 24, 2001 10:17 PM
When I posted, I was thinking the next step would be hydrogen ( racers take things to extremes) If a little is good a lot must be better. Mt them next to the traction control box and the hydrolic weight jacks. Could be a sonic wireless transmitter placed in each tire to relay vital info and change pressure release valve...... keep thinking .

rjs
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 72
posted November 24, 2001 11:05 PM
Jammin can inform you if he wants but the basic system has been defined. It's the JCITSBCS or JBCS for short. It's a temperature sensitive ballast control system the likes of which the world has never seen. Good luck Jammin don't forget the patent.

jammin
Dirt Administrator

Total posts: 5060
posted November 24, 2001 11:14 PM UIN: 16262997
RJS.....LOL.....Man...ROTF

6pack
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 111
posted November 25, 2001 01:51 PM

Tire Reliefs - Tire Pressure Relief Valves
"Relieves Tire Pressure Buildup As You Race - Automatically"


kain
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 7
posted November 25, 2001 10:10 PM
This is really not a answer to the original question but one thing i have done to control tire pressure without relief valves. After mounting the tire use a vacuum pump to boil off the moisture inside the tire then add nitrogen.

Homer62
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 10
posted November 26, 2001 11:08 PM

Jammin,check with a competent airconditioning engineer on the properties of freon. Good luck racin'.

go4win
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 28
posted December 02, 2001 05:50 PM
Freon is a name brand for refrigerant.
R12 ,R22 etc . are different chemical combos
to serve a particular need.
These gases have a certain pressure for a
given temperature.Many others do as well.
This is why they "make cold air". This concept would not be advisable for tires.

The volume required to fill a tire so it would roll would cause a great pressure increase as the temp rose.
While you would have access to a pressure/
temp chart for exact pressures at those
temps , you wouldn't like the extreme rise
in pressure with the 40 or so degrees
that dirt tires rise during a feature.
Just use the traction aids available to
"clean" the tires each week . Works for a lot of guys ,or so I hear.

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