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Author Topic:   Eagle's Claw
eagleii
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 109
posted August 26, 2001 01:35 PM
All,

I would like to invite any of you that have been sent a G3 or G4 Claw to post any comments you may have here on The Dirt Forum. Any comment, good or bad, would be helpful to everyone who has one.

I know that many of you have had yours most of the season, some of you just recieved yours, and several of you are expecting one at any time. I AM behind on them, but I am getting them out as fast as I can. Please be patient.

There are over 100 of them in the hands of racers all over the country, so let's hear from you. Jammin has a fine forum here and I will be happy to respond as often as I can. But, that shouldn't stop any of you from swapping the knowledge and experience you have gained thus far with your Claws.

The new G5 Talons are on the USMTS and doing extremely well. These units are only slightly diffrent than the G3 and G4, but they all tune the same. Let's get a discussion started and see if we can all help each other.

Thanks,
Jerry
Eagle Chassis & Fabrication

LITTLEMAN
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 82
posted August 26, 2001 06:37 PM
I'm curious to to see how they are working out to because I didn't get achance to try mine yet.

eagleii
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 109
posted August 27, 2001 12:47 AM
Littleman,

I was not aware you had one. How did you get it? From whom did you get it? I keep pretty good records on who has each of them that were sent out and your name does not appear. I do remember that you were talking to Strokin3 about getting one, but I was under the impression you never followed through on it.

There are only 2 places to get one. From me or Strokin3. Either of us can help you out with it when you are ready. Let us know.

Jerry

eagleii
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 109
posted August 27, 2001 01:16 AM

To: Everyone who has e-mailed me.

OK,OK, now you guys know what they are!! It never has been a secret. I call them the Eagle's Claw.

But, geez guys, slow down. I appreciate all the e-mails. I will answer each of them, I promise. I can only type so fast. Please be patient. I never imagined this much response.

Thanks so much,

Jerry

LITTLEMAN
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 82
posted August 27, 2001 05:13 PM
eagle,you guessed it jerry the reason I haven't tried mine yet is cause I never recieved it both you and stroken 3 promised me one and I haven't recieved it yet,I figured it was cause I build cars for john saathoff even though it was for my own race car.

eagleii
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 109
posted August 27, 2001 07:52 PM
It does not matter to me who you work for, what chassis you have or who owns it. The Claw is available to anyone, even chassis builders. By the way, Johnny has already seen the business end of the Claw several times on 4 cars running the USMTS. Before he won his race, he was behind a Claw equipped car when it pulled our pull bar in two and sent us to the pits. It wasn't even on one of my chassis.

As I said before, I was under the impression that you and Strokin3 were making the deal. I will follow up on it for you. Sorry for the mixup.

Jerry

bogged
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 26
posted August 27, 2001 08:56 PM
what is the cost of this device and how many brackets need to be added to the car?

eagleii
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 109
posted August 28, 2001 06:17 AM
Bogged,

Only 2 brackets need to be added. These are the same brackets used for a trailing arm. I use one with 5 holes spaced 1 in. apart. This bracket mounts to the tubing that runs in front of the fuel cell. The rear bar attaches to this bracket. Nothing else needs to be added. The pull bar uses the same front mount and the Claw mounts to the brackets on top of the rear end using the pull bar bolt. The pull bar mounts to the lower hole of the Claw and the rear bar mounts to one of 4 holes on the top of the Claw creating a watts link or z-link.

I'm not sure Jammin wants me to post the price. I will leave it on a private message for you.

Jerry

eagleii
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 109
posted August 29, 2001 05:36 AM
All,

Many of you are asking how the Claw works. I will try to explain it simply as I can.

The Claw is a simple watts link/z-link device that works in conjunction with the pull system on a race car. It doesn't matter what rear suspension you have as long as you have a spring bar, biscuit bar, or solid bar style pull system.

The Claw is "birdcage" that has a bushing for a 3/4" bolt at it's pivot point. Another hole is located just below the pivot bushing to which the pull bar mounts. Above the center pivot is 4 - 5/8" holes to which a rear bar is attached.

The Claw mounts to the upper brackets of the rear end in the same hole that is used for the pull bar. You remove the bolt from the pull bar and install the bolt through the pivot bushing on the Claw. The pull bar then moves to the hole just below the center pivot of the Claw. A second bar, push bar if you will, is added from the top of the Claw to a bracket mounted to the tube in front of the fuel cell, thus completing the linkages. This bracket usually has 5 holes spaced 1" center to center and mounted to where the top hole of the Claw and the top hole of the rear bracket is level at ride height.

The Claw is then set to tilt forward the same amount as the pinion angle. In other words, if the pinion angle is 5 deg, then the Claw tilts forward 5 deg. Using the pull bar and the rear bar, the pinion angle is adjusted to obtain this primary angle. Once set, the rear bar alone can be used to either increase or decrease the pinion/Claw angle.

The pull bar should be from 15 - 20 deg angle down to the front of the car and as long as practical. The rear bar should be 8" or longer to keep the angle change to a minimum. The rear bar angles down about 10 deg for most track conditions. Increase the angle for dry tracks, decrease it for tacky tracks.

The 4 holes in the top of the Claw are what determines the leverage ratio. The higher the hole, the greater the leverage will be. The upper brackets on the rear end also have a leverage factor which varies from car to car. The Claw compounds this leverage and applies it back to the rear end and creates extra downforce on the wheels, thus creating extra traction and forward bite.

Because the Claw is a watts link, the chassis does not realize it is there until power is applied. When power is applied, a solid link is developed between the chassis and the rear end. However, being a watts link, the chassis is still free to roll and move. The Claw can also be moved from side to side to enhance traction on the wheel it is closest to.

Setups do not have to be changed for the Claw to work properly. You use the same setup that you would use if the Claw was not installed. No spring or shock changes are necessary.

The Claw is simple and easy to use and adjust. It does require a little thought to understand how it works. I have sent Jammin a couple of pics of it installed and hooked up and have talked at length with him about it. I have also asked him to post them so everyone can see it. I know my explainations are basic and may be confusing, but I will be happy to answer any questions on details I may have omitted. You can e-mail me directly or I will try to answer them here on the forum. My e-mail is JRRGS@AOL.COM

Jerry

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EagleII

eagleii
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 109
posted September 02, 2001 05:53 AM
All,

I have been asked about the difference in using a spring bar versus a biscuit bar for the forward link on the Claw.

The spring bar works with virtually all types of rear suspensions. It allows more rotational movement of the rear end which in turn, gives Claw more movement. With the greater movement of the Claw, you get more chassis lift as well as better traction control. The spring dampens the shock on the tires and takes somewhat less throttle control by the driver. The spring bar works well with the 3-link systems and clamped on brackets. It works extremely well with bird cages.

With a biscuit bar or solid bar, the response to the throttle is instantaneous. The trade off is the amount of lift the car has and somewhat less weight transfer. If you use this set up, I would recomend that the rear suspension be on bird cages to free up the rotation of the rear end and gain maximum traction.

I personally like to use the Claw with a 900# spring bar with med rubber biscuits as a spring dampener and decelleration dampener. I also like to use a rear suspension on bird cages to free up the rotation of the rear end. This combination works very well on any chassis we have tried it on.

Another combination we have used with good success is to use a trailing arm/panhard bar dampener on the rear bar. This works really well with a solid pull bar. We have also used it in combination with a biscuit type pull bar with very good results.

We have tried just about every combination you can imagine. As I think of some of those things I will post them. I am sure I have forgotten some things, or at least put them in the back of my mind somewhere. I re-read my posts at times and remember things I should have mentioned. I'll post them as I remember them.

Jerry

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EagleII

dirtsquirt
Dirt Newbie

Total posts: 4
posted September 02, 2001 09:14 AM
Will any of you guys be at Boone? I would like to check this out. Thanks in advance. Please respond asap, were leaving around 1:00 today.

eagleii
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 109
posted September 02, 2001 05:01 PM
There are supposed to be 4 cars there equipped with the Claw and an Eagle III with the new Talon on it. The cars belong to PHP Motorsports of Galesburg, IL. These are the cars running on the USMTS. Steven Peterson, the owner, told me last week that they would be at Boone. Please go by and take a look. The crews should be able to answer all of your questions.

Jerry

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EagleII

millerlt3
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 23
posted September 02, 2001 10:07 PM
eagleii,
is this claw your talking about the same as the fulcrum device discussed awhile back on this forum?

dirttrackracer
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 26
posted September 02, 2001 10:56 PM
Could you give names of drivers that will be at Boone,it would be hard to find them by car owners name when there will probably be 200-300 modifieds.

eagleii
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 109
posted September 03, 2001 04:25 AM
MillerLt3,

Yes it is the same fulcrum device that we didcussed several months ago, however there are 2 new versions of it that we have developed since then. The G4 Claw and the Talon.

DirtTrackRacer,

I am not sure what all the drivers name's are. Steven just hired a father/son team last week. Ryan Disterhef drives the #6P Eagle III with the Talon. A young man named Dean also drives for them. The Claws are on 2 K-Mods and 2 Shaws, but have been fully converted to the Eagle III rear suspension systems. They are all FORD powered so they should be very noticeable. I'm sure there won't be many Fords there. Look for PHP Motorsports. When you find the Red #6P Ford, you will get to see them all.

Jerry

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EagleII

[This message has been edited by eagleii (edited September 03, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by eagleii (edited September 03, 2001).]

wfoondirt
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 143
posted September 04, 2001 12:23 AM
is the father/son team you are talking about dean mcgee jr/sr? i'm from central il and have run against them a few times. If i remember right the numbers were 6p and 6pm.

eagleii
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 109
posted September 04, 2001 04:22 AM
wfoondirt,

That could possibly be. PHP Motorsports is in Galesburg, IL. The names sound right and the car numbers certainly are correct. I understand that Dean used to run some Sprint cars or maybe even late models and his father has raced just about everything with wheels. I also understand that they are both very talented. But sometimes that can be a matter of opinion. I have never met any of Steven's drivers. Steven's father, Stewart, usually comes down to pick up the cars and/or parts. In December I'll get to meet them all when they come down here for the Miller Modified Nationals. I look forward to it.

Jerry

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EagleII

millerlt3
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 23
posted September 05, 2001 09:40 PM
eagleii,
have you sold any of these to drivers on the west coast Nevada or California or maybe on one of your chassis so i can see one and possibly speak to someone face to face on how it affects thier car. I was running a three link pull bar but i wasnt happy with the forward bite so i went to a two link coil spring torque arm system like on a harris chassis and the forward bite was much better and the forward bite is great but would be willing to give your system a try to see how it works hopeing to get even better results.

eagleii
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 109
posted September 06, 2001 06:41 AM
MillerLT3,

Strokin3 helps me build the Claws and he sent one or two to teams on the west coast. I'm not exactly sure where it went.

I'll contact him and find out.

Jerry

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EagleII

racinrich66
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 15
posted September 06, 2001 11:02 AM
EagleII
When will we be able to see some pics of this thing? I understand that Jammin has some but we have yet to see them. In my mind I understand how this thing works but pics would answer a lot of questions. Have you sold any to the guys around the Houston area? Im interested but still have questions.
Thanks.

Steph
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 61
posted September 06, 2001 02:31 PM UIN: 6762482
It does look interesting...

Here's the pic and here's the site page about it. Seeing the picture really helps when reading the explanation.

Hmmm....

eagleii
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 109
posted September 06, 2001 03:40 PM
Steph,

Yep, That's the G3 Claw. The picture helps, but there is much more to it to understand. It's a little unclear in the picture, but you should notice that here are 3 holes in the top of the Claw to choose from. The rear bracket has 5 holes. The leverage is determined by the spacing of these holes as well as the bottom hole that the pull bar attaches to. The angle of the bars are critical to the amount of bite the car will have.

The G4 and the Talon are major improvements over the G3. The G3 works best with short pull bars. The geometry is different for longer pull bars and the G4 and Talon are for those. Study it and analyze it. Print the description and picture. It will be easier to understand.

Jerry

eagleii
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 109
posted September 06, 2001 03:44 PM
RacinRich66,

I gave Brian Stipes of Baytown one of them when we brought the house car to Gator. I am not sure whether he has installed it yet or not. If you know him, give him a call. Then, you can see one up close and personal.

Jerry

dirttrackracer
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 26
posted September 06, 2001 05:34 PM
What is the diference between the G4 and Talon?

Strokin3
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 69
posted September 06, 2001 07:23 PM
If it helps, I sent a G4 Claw to a racer named Richard in Oregon. He logs on this forun as racerraw25 I think.

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Artie Perilloux

Strokin3
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 69
posted September 06, 2001 07:33 PM
My Claw works perfectly with a double pull spring bar. The past weekend we raced at a track that doesn't allow a spring loaded torque device so I installed the cute little rubber biscuit device from Sweet. It isn't allowing my rear end to rotate enough to make everything work correctly. Is there something else that I can use to give me back the 1.5 to 2" of travel I use to have on my pullbar without using springs. It needs to have a 3/4" rod end on each end to hook up to the Claw just like in the pic in the previous tread.

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Artie Perilloux

racerraw
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 8
posted September 06, 2001 08:21 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Strokin3:
If it helps, I sent a G4 Claw to a racer named Richard in Oregon. He logs on this forun as racerraw25 I think.


Yes Artie I will get back after our race this friday. We had a couple of weeks off, but i did do some testing last wednesday and it is very promissing. Great bite that lasts. I will let you know how it goes.

eagleii
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 109
posted September 07, 2001 03:36 AM
DirtTrackRacer,

The G4 is similar to the G3, but has a tighter leverage and geometry. The spacing of the holes are different than the G3. The bottom hole is closer to the center pivot and there are 4 holes on top which are spaced to allow a 1:1 ratio to negate the leverage if necessary. We have been bendng parts on a real tacky track when the leverage is set to high. The G4 allows us to go to a 1:1 ratio for tracks that have a sticky surface early in the night and then start adding leverage as the track dries by moving the rear bar up on the Claw. The G4 WILL break the pull bar and/or the upper brackets on the rear end if you put too much leverage on it. Especially on a tacky track. The bottom hole was moved up to allow more angle on a long pull bar.

The Talon is similar to the G4 Claw with the tighter spacing on the bottom hole and a 1:1 ratio feature. The major difference is the stagger of the upper holes off center from the center pivot. These holes are also drilled on a radius to match the length of the rear bar. The Talons are built to specs measured from the car it is to be installed on. It is built around the pull bar and rear bar lengths as well the height of the rear end bracket. The geometry of the Talon follows the pinion angle change more closely than does the G3 or G4 Claws.

Jerry

eagleii
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 109
posted September 07, 2001 03:57 AM
Strokin3,

Since I know which Claw you have, I suggest you throw it as far away as you can if you are going to use the Sweet biscuit bar. Take it to the Bayou and use it for a fishing weight or something. LOL

As you reported, with the spring bar Keith was pulling both front wheels off the ground coming off the turns. You are right in your analysis that the rear end needs to rotate more with the Sweet bar. To make it work with your Claw, you will need to take all the preload off of the biscuits. Back off on the nut on the through bolt until you can freely turn the biscuit in side the main body. Not too loose, now. Get as much angle on the pull bar as you can. Set the trailing arms as I suggested before. The key to making your version work with the Sweet unit is to get the chassis to lift in the rear. If you are lifting the chassis, the rear end will rotate back giving the Claw a chance to do it's job.

I have your new one ready and in the box. The new one is a Talon. I believe it will work on your car with BOTH pull systems.

RacerRaw DID get his Claw installed and reports that he set the new lap time record at his home track his first night out. He beat the old one by 2 tenths of a second. He did say the track was tacky, but 2 tenths; that ain't too shabby. Way to go, Rich!!

Jerry

[This message has been edited by eagleii (edited September 07, 2001).]

eagleii
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 109
posted September 09, 2001 05:23 AM
All,

RacerRaw made an interesting comment in his posts. He stated that it has good bite that "lasts". I have been remiss in my posts for not commenting on that before. Richard is right.

The reason that the bite "lasts" is that the Claw reacts to throttle input through the rotation of the rear end. As long as power is being applied, the Claw stays "hooked up" and provides the extra traction. It will only "unhook" when you let out of the throttle and the rearend returns to it's static position. The Claw "hooks up" and "unhooks" proportional to the throttle input. The smoother the throttle input, the smoother it will work.

The same goes for decelleration, however you have the dampener to help you there. The axle dampener will help keep it smooth when its "unhooking". But, keep in mind, there is no substitute for a smooth driver.

Jerry

[This message has been edited by eagleii (edited September 09, 2001).]

FastFred
Dirt Newbie

Total posts: 1
posted September 17, 2001 11:33 PM
Jerry,

I read were you said you can set the leverage to 1:1 on the newer claws, can you explain were everything is set to achieve this? I was looking at the picture on your website and was trying to figure out how you achieve that. I am thinking about buying one but want to understand how it works first.

Thanks in advance.

ps what is the current wait time if I were to order one.

eagleii
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 109
posted September 18, 2001 05:06 AM
The 1:1 ratio is simple to achieve. The first hole on the top of the Claw is the same spacing above the center pivot as the bottom hole. The top has 4 holes for the rear bar and the bottom has one hole for the pull bar to attach. Equal spacing from the fulcrum provides the 1:1 ratio. As the top hole moves farther from the fulcrum point the ratio increases.

We currently have a 1 week lag time. We are building a lot of chassis' for our sponsorship program and are building Claws and Talons once a week in batches of 10-20. They go out pretty fast. We will build the next batch Thurs. for shipment Monday. Last week's run are already gone. This week's run is almost full.

Jerry


[This message has been edited by eagleii (edited September 18, 2001).]

BILLY BOB
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 87
posted September 18, 2001 08:26 AM
Isn't this claw the same idea that Randy down in the valley has been running on Austin Carter's car for the last 3 or so years. Is that where the idea for the "claw" came from? That fulcrum deal isn't new.

CHAMP00
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 5
posted September 18, 2001 01:34 PM
Hey Jerry, Whens my claw coming this way?? Randy

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BILLY BOB
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 87
posted September 18, 2001 02:58 PM
YOU GUYS ARE FUNNY

eagleii
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 109
posted September 18, 2001 04:27 PM
BillyBob,

It is the same idea that Randy has used. Mine is a diffrent takeoff on a VERY old idea. There is nothing new or mysterious about a watts link device. I have never claimed to have invented it. In fact, if you had read my post from 8/29/01, you would have read that it is a "simple watts link" that mounts to the rearend. The same devices were used on some car that were manufactured back in the late '40s and '50s. I was called the "rocker arm" on those cars. There are many uses for a watts link. This is just one of them.

Randy,

It's on it's way!

Jerry

eagleii
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 109
posted September 21, 2001 05:43 AM
All,

Don't give up on your Claws. Kevin and I are making them as fast as we can. Several are being shipped today and another batch is going out Monday.

Thanks for your patience.

Jerry

Racer14K
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 16
posted September 21, 2001 04:48 PM
eagleii, do you know of any drivers in the St.Louis area that has purchased one of the claws. I'm very interrested in trying one myself. If there is any info you need about the chassis please let know.
Racer14K@aol.com

eagleii
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 109
posted September 23, 2001 04:38 AM
Racer14K,

There are Claws all around you, but I don't know of any that are in St Louis. Look on the website WWW.EALGEMOD.COM and you can see a pic of what it looks like. You can click on it to blow it up.

Jerry

Racer14K
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 16
posted September 27, 2001 05:53 PM
From what I've been reading about the incresed bite from the claw will this effect the rpm where a lower gear would be needed?

eagleii
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 109
posted September 27, 2001 06:40 PM
It would definately be an advantage to go to a taller gear. That would depend on the motor you have. We went from a 5:43 to a 5:67 and have had no problems.

I have not had any reports of anyone having to make a big change in gears. If you are lugging the motor, then a gear change is necessary.

Jerry

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