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Author Topic:   UMP Mod Motors $$$$$$$$
brownstone
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 45
posted April 24, 2001 08:04 PM
this subject was touched on in the IMCA weight rule post. But how do others out there feel ? Does anyone else out there think that the current price to run build a competitve UMP motor has sky rocketed beyond reality ?

I find myself running against more and more 434 or $1600 lightweight crank motors.

CNC DOC
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 20
posted April 24, 2001 08:24 PM
I run AMRA and we have the same problem. I've seen 18deg motors, Dramie motors, and Hartman motors at my home track. I talked to an engine builder that did one of the motors at our track and he told me it was a 17deg AllPro head motor that dynoed at 720 horsepower. Sometimes I think I would be better off if I switched to steel block latemodels.

[This message has been edited by CNC DOC (edited April 24, 2001).]

wfoondirt
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 142
posted April 24, 2001 09:17 PM
in most cases its not the motor that wins races, i have run and won with everything from stock rod 355 to 18 degree 434's but now am mainly running 23 degree 406's or 377's that have smooth torque curves. Alot of the newer low angle heads tend to make good horsepower but tend to be too peaky to be really drivable in a dirt mod on an 8in tire. i dont spend more that 5-6k on a motor and save the rest to keep new tires on the car week to week and to make sure the car is in top shape mechanically.
the thing is, if someone has 20k in a motor more than likely they have the best of everything and their car is in top shape and have the resourses to win consistantly, not only money wise but also setup research.
look at ump champ jimmy owens, i have seen him numerous times in the past few years roll into a track that he has never been to and walk away with the money, not because of the motor but because of the driver, and the crew knowing how to setup the car.
in ump there is also such a thing called a claim. i'm not a big advocate of the motor claim idea but if you really think that the motor wins races, go out finish on the lead lap and claim the winner, problem solved right? maybe, until he comes back next week and beats you with your old motor. then whats the excuse? my 2 cents

fury
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 52
posted April 25, 2001 08:43 AM
while I would agree that motor is not everything, and that car setup means a lot.... I agree with brownstone, even the last poster admits that he is spending 5 or 6k on his motors. Wow I think this is exactly the thing that is going to drive modifieds out of buisness in the long run. the late models are a fine example of this happening. I keep hearing how you can only do so much on an 8 inch tire. Who's kidding who ? At every UMP track I go to this year the top 5 cars are carrying the left front down the straight away. A lot of IMCA cars are doing the same thing. So the old story of the 8 inch tire wont hold the motor is not always true.

The engine guru's are catching on, they are building motors with an acceleraion pattern to help with the 8 inch tire dilema. The chassis builders are also catching up, they have been working at this 8 inch tire game long enough now to know what to do. If you dont believe this you are fooling yourself.

I think there needs to be some other ideas to help keep cost down, like no alluminum heads for UMP or AMRA, just like IMCA.

Claiming is not the answer, we all know that it promotes low morale and angry racers. That being said I would have to laugh if one of these high dollar 434's did get claimed. ( I have never claimed )

IMCA's low claim price does keep the threat real. I dont want to beat the dead horse claim issue.

Something needs to be done, before the mod class goes the way of the late model.

MOD RACER#93
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 251
posted April 25, 2001 07:46 PM
when i see 35 to 40 cars showing up week to week. i dont see the class going by the way side anytime in the near or far future. forward bite is the key. as long as tracks keep going dry slick it will be hard to hook up the cars. i agree that chassis and engine people are on top of the issue, but a smooth right foot is the main ingredent here. 5 to 6 grand is a good price for a good reliable mod motor. i put 4500 in a "hot" street stock motor once.. there are so many things i could say, that would prolly get me in trouble here. so ill just say that the more rules you put on like motors (this is one reason i like the class no motor rules) the more people will cheat.... o yes it is true there are "cheaters" out there. so at least this away it keeps people from accusing others of cheating with engines. put us all on 8" tires and give us a weight rule and factory front clip and lets go race.. may the smoothest right foot win.. just my thoughts... by the way i run 355cid... i currantly have the 4500 dollar hot stock motor with j&e, isky solid, gear drive, 2.02 1.60 vortec heads, and a light crank in the car now...lol. but i am working on a 406cid.. WITH ALUMINUM HEADS.. they better not change that rule..lol.

Iowamod20
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 20
posted April 26, 2001 10:36 AM
I run a couple of NASCAR tracks in eastern Iowa, and a couple of independents as well. Motor costs do seem to be going up, and guys are spending more on their motors. We basically have a paper claim (rules say you can, but nobody does), so this takes the threat out of building a high dollar motor.

We switched to the Hoosiers last season, and that hasn't helped much either. You can hook the motors up more, and the tires cost more and don't last as long as the American Racer.

One thing I haven't figured out is that we are only racing for $400 to win & $50 to start. From a business standpoint, it doesn't pay to build an $10,000 motor. You would have to win 25 races at $400 each to pay for it, and that doesn't inlcude all the expenses for tires, fuel, parts, & wrecks.

Competition is the driving force here, but instead of just trying to win on the track, you have to win with your wallet as well.

Not sure what the solution is, as money is always an influence in motorsports. Weight rule, spec tire, no aluminum, maybe a cubic inch limit on the motors. Try and make the cars more power limited and force suspension handling to be the winning factor???

Would like to hear what everyone else is racing for as for as their weekly purse goes, in UMP, AMRA, IMCA, Independents, etc.

Thanks.

Steph
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 60
posted April 27, 2001 10:37 AM UIN: 6762482
Iowamod,

We're UMP, weekly payout at our local track is $400 to win, $50 to start. Some tracks offer a little money for the transfer spots in the heats as well, but not much.

I don't think that a person looks to recoup engine expense in one year though. As much as you want to call this a business, unless you truly do this as a business (meaning you have a race shop, own two or three cars, etc.), you're not going to make money at this. For weekend racers, no matter what you tell the IRS, this thing is a hobby. And an expensive one at that. And besides, guys that do run at this as a business and try to make a profit go out there and race two, three, four or more times per week, EVERY WEEK! If it's "your only job", there is money to be made - but you're going to have to haul for it. And often, those types of people aren't showing up at the "competitive local tracks" either. They look for a track that guarantees an "easy win" for the quick 4-500 or else they are hauling to a race with a minimum payout of $2000. There's a cost-benefit analysis there. It's for the money, not the fun.

We do it for the fun.

Three years ago, we upgraded our 377 and now I think it's something like a 410 with lots of ponies. We rely on our engine builder and I couldn't even tell you what's in it, other than I know some of it is used. We're probably over $10,000, but not all at once. Our "refresh" cost is $1200 per year, but we haven't done any major upgrades since the 1998-1999 off season. During season, all we do is change the fluids. We don't touch the engine, tranny or carb other than normal maintenance.

This is what I was saying in the other thread... you pay for the quality up front and then you just maintain it. So, it's not like you're spending $10K every year.

Goldigger
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 26
posted April 27, 2001 12:16 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Steph:

Steph do you realize about the only difference between your car and an all out latemodel is the tires- wheels and cage? That is not what the Modified class was intended to be. You guy's literally have a late-model you are running in a modified class. That's why they have a weight rule, to make it worthless to buy that aftermarket lightweight trans. Geez, 10 grand for a modified motor?? Come on.

wfoondirt
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 142
posted April 27, 2001 12:52 PM
You can't honestly tell me that you consider modifieds are an entry level class. Some of the top drivers on dirt are running in the modified class for the simple reason that reguardless of what you say, a modified costs less than half what a late model does. 10g is very cheap for a top l/m motor these days, not to mention the cost of the lightweight chassis parts and tires etc. I agree w/ steph this is a hobby not a business. Most of the people i know that spend a bunch of money on their cars arent spending their own money, the majority of it is sponsorship money. If your looking to make money at this sport, that is where the money is made, not in weekly purses. Do you really think nascar teams live off the week to week purses? Most of the people i am associated with collect enough sponsorship money in the off season to pay for the car, and the weekly purses pay for consumables and other week to week expenses with occational out of pocket expense this makes racing a **** of alot more fun.

wheels13
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 26
posted April 27, 2001 01:51 PM
wfo, I need to come race in your area then if sponsorship is that readily available. I have been racing since the late seventies and I can count on my fingers the number of guys I know that have sufficient sponsorship to pay for the car. I wish that were the case. I am one of the fortunate ones to have a fuel sponsor and a little weekly help but most operate out of the wallet. The costs are reaching a point that prohibits the weekend racer from participating in the program. those who can spend the exhorbitant amounts of dollars are forcing the class away from the very ones it was designed to appeal to in the beginning. No, it isnt a entry level class, it was a class that was intended for those who could not even attempt to afford a late model of some car of this type. The modified class is no different than any other class, someone always wanting to spend money on things because they can and knowing full well that others cant. Gives them the edge. I miss the days of ingenuity and fabrication. Now we have "house" cars and cookie cutter chassis. Once again it seems the dollar has proven the fastest. We have to stop it some where, and judging by the number of mods in this country, the idea is sound. We just have to find a way to "even" the playing field so that more players can score on any given race night. Lets get back to 40 car fields on a weekly show instead of 20. If the B-mod is a suitable alternative , then so be it, lets get more guys racing them so they can see if they will be able to step up. But, lets not price them out before they get a chance.

KK17
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 75
posted April 27, 2001 06:26 PM
WISSOTA for the last 3 or 4 seasons has had 2 different motors availiable. A spec motor which is 362 cui or less and allowed to run roller rockers, no porting on heads and only certain head #'s allowed, not claimable. The other option is a claimer, 410cui or less, porting allowed on heads , no rollers. Neither were allowed aluminum heads. Now for this season it was decided that nobody was claiming and the big motors were too fast, so they went with a restrictor plate on the big motors. Now heres where it gets complicated. If you run unported and certain castings , you dont need one. If you run ported, you can either run a restrictor plate or run an extra 150lbs of weight. Sounds like a tech inspector nightmare. It might have been better just to institute a weight change instead of the plate, becuase now I think guys are gonna be spending coin on figuring out how the get more power with the plate or stock heads.
Lead is cheap, horsepower isn't.

MOD RACER#93
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 251
posted April 27, 2001 07:49 PM
see this is why i like the ump class now. no spec anything. spec's only lead to cheating, name calling, speculation.. things like that. things i got tired of in the stock classes. this is "not" an entry level class. this is a hobby. i dont think there is any way possible to make money at it. unless all you do is drive a car and get paid for your trouble. i know of tracks that pay 400 to win i know of others that pay 750 and one that pays a grand every week to win... bet yall can guess which i race at. still.. the cost of just running in the top 5 is more than your gonna get back at the window. so it must mean that we love racing that much to spend our hard earned money on a peice of iron with 4 wheels. just so we can go to the track to see how many freinds or enemys we can make in one night..lol. i too would like to get in on this getting sponsers to pay for everything for a year. and all i do is take the money i win and pay my vehicle gas, or taking my g/f out on a friday night....

Steph
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 60
posted April 30, 2001 08:06 AM UIN: 6762482
quote:
Originally posted by MOD RACER#93:
so it must mean that we love racing that much to spend our hard earned money on a peice of iron with 4 wheels. just so we can go to the track...

That it, right there. We don't have enough sponsorship money either... we get less than $3000 a year. Everything else comes out of our pocket book. It's basically another house payment. In fact, how we pay for racing is that a certain amount comes out of my paycheck and is directly deposited into the race account. On a monthly basis, that amount is more than our house payment! And I don't think that means we're being unfair because we know "full well that others can't"... we're just lucky to be able to spend that much and we do spend that much in order to have fun because we love it.

And as far as our car basically being a late model... HA! A good friend of ours that moved up to LM's last year just bought their own engine this year... almost $30K. We're not even close!

Steph
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 60
posted April 30, 2001 11:27 AM UIN: 6762482
I remembered a point while writing a response over in the other thread (IMCA Weight Rule)...

How many of you that run against, or with, a big engine qualify? How many draw?

[This message has been edited by Steph (edited April 30, 2001).]

fury
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 52
posted April 30, 2001 12:18 PM
One of the biggest classes going down in SOuth Texas is the limited modified class. In fact they run them at several different tracks on the same night.

With the money no problem attitude of Steph and racers that operate there mod team the same way, your tactics will only make classes like the limited modifieds grow in number.

In fact if I was starting over I would build a limited. I cant begin to count all of the people in limited mod class that have said the following " I quit running UMP because it got too expensive "

Car counts for UMP are up for now but they will start to decline as parts and cars become more expensive. Then all the big money teams can run against each other in 4 to 8 car shoot out just like you see at a lot of tracks in the michigan where almost no one can afford to run a late model anymore.

But dont worry, cause when the car counts in UMP mods start to decline, thats when Steph and the teams like hers will grow tired of the lack of competition and low car counts and guess what they will do.................

They will start running a limited mod or something like it and start the out pricing process all over again.


Steph
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 60
posted April 30, 2001 01:07 PM UIN: 6762482
quote:
Originally posted by fury:
money no problem attitude of Steph

Please don't take my posts the wrong way. Just tell me what the options are instead. Go a few more years of not winning?

Just because I'm willing to be honest about our team doesn't mean that I feel like being blamed for a historically repeated problem in the entire sport. We're definitely not spending the most out of anyone at our track. It's not like we're out there throwing money around willy-nilly either. These are simply the choices we have made.

Let's come up with some better options and work on making it better rather than just casting blame. Sitting around waiting for new rules and hoping that others won't push the barriers is not cutting it, wouldn't you agree?

Are more rules the only way out of this repeating cycle?

jammin
Dirt Administrator

Total posts: 3279
posted April 30, 2001 01:17 PM UIN: 16262997
Steph...I hope you didn't think the stuff I said on the other post was directly aimed at you. I am just so afraid of seeing our modifieds fade away. I love this class and dont want to see anything happen to it. It upsets me to see the rules being fluctuated toward Late Model status since there are fewer and fewer lates around now.

jammin

Steph
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 60
posted April 30, 2001 01:50 PM UIN: 6762482
No, no, jammin' - not at all.

I normally just lurk... and I guess I've read enough of these types of threads all over many boards that I finally got to the point where I had to explain it from my point of view. And over the course, I'm realizing that this "problem" isn't going to go away. It happens in all classes, not just mods. So rather than complaining about it, I had to ask, "what's a team to do?"

Complaining alone solves nothing. But maybe pushing the limits is just as valid a way of trying to elicit change as is sitting back and waiting for new rules to induce the limits. Am I wrong?

jammin
Dirt Administrator

Total posts: 3279
posted April 30, 2001 02:19 PM UIN: 16262997
No, your right....

This is the only way that we can better the situation. I dont think we will ever elimitate it, but I believe rules and enforcers are the only ways to keep it down. Tracks sometimes are swayed on rules to accomodate their current car counts. This is part of the problem I have seen. Going with the majority is going to hurt the racer every time.

dirt mod 70
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 35
posted April 30, 2001 08:40 PM
i race at a track that averages 53 IMCA mods a night...you have to have a big horse just to make the darn feature!!ive run a 383(cant make the feature...406 i make the feature but out of top 5....421 and i have a chance to win)all these motors are easy to hook up....even on a dry slick clay track(set-up and a light foot out of the corners) unfortunately HP cost big $$$..but if you want to win, we have to do what it takes...whinning doesnt work!!!!!IF YOU CANT AFFORD TO WIN...DONT BLAME ANYBODY BUT YOURSELF!!i work just as hard as everybody else for my money(im a welder)but i choose to win...so i spend whatever it takes...DO I THINK THIS IS RIGHT...NO FRICKEN WAY!! THATS JUST WHAT IT TAKES TO WIN NOW!!

just my 2 cents worth...

PEDDLER
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 148
posted April 30, 2001 09:27 PM
The cost of motors are out of sight for most people compared what the classes are paying. There will always be someone with more money than brains and the rest will have to spend what it takes to keep up.

Street stock several years I had over $5000 in the motor to stay in the top runners and all for $250 to win. Kinda dumb .

I feel the more spec rules or rules that are eaiser to tech like the I Stock carb rule will do their part in keeping cost down.

Carb restrictions, Tires,and weight rules will do more than anything.

My thoughts only
The PEDDLER

Hammer 1
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 48
posted May 01, 2001 12:30 PM
Last fall at the Dirt Track World Championship at West Virginia Motor Speedway, the modified pole sitter would have qualified 15th in the LATE MODEL feature!!! with the likes of Freddy Smith and Scott Bloomquist. What's up with that??

neverenoughbrew
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 20
posted May 03, 2001 08:15 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Hammer 1:
Last fall at the Dirt Track World Championship at West Virginia Motor Speedway, the modified pole sitter would have qualified 15th in the LATE MODEL feature!!! with the likes of Freddy Smith and Scott Bloomquist. What's up with that??

We ran at the Dirt World Championship last year. We had to run the consi because of fuel problem. We won the consi, started near the tail in the feature and finished in the top 10. By the halfway point the fuel problem had returned and by the end of race we only had 3lbs of fuel pressure. Not good on alky!! That was the last race of the season for us, and upon refreshing the engine this winter We found a set of lifters turned sideways, intake gasket sucked in around runner, and our heads which had not been freshened since they were purchased 5yrs ago had two dampner springs broken and had went through the motor. I believe we would have finished far better if our "little" motor was not sick and wore out. We run a little 377 that is home built, good heads, pistons and rods. The crank cost $4oo and ran it all season not being balanced. We broke down and had the crank balanced this year (they had to drill 5oz. out of it) as it vibrated at idle so bad it was starting to break the mounts out of the chassis. Our home track averages 50 to 60 car count and we run against big and high dollar motors, but we also generally finish in the top 5. My point is,unless you run a track that is always very tacky, no-one has proved bigger is better in a mod to me. In four years, all we have spent on our motor is $400 on a cheap crank and bought two rods beside just refreshing it once a year.

Hammer 1
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 48
posted May 03, 2001 09:23 AM
No matter what you run from 4 cylinders to Winston Cup cars, there will be have's and have nots. It's a given. I run a home built 377 like you and had a very good year last season. What bothers me is that I chose to run a modified, not a late model. I knew up front I couldn't afford a motor program for a late model, that's why I'm in a modified. We have what we have, and we do well with what we have but if it's comming to having to have a big buck motor to get the job done,(and now there's a few SB2's floating around) we all might as well get it over with and run late models for more cash. Let's face it. A new modified roller will cost you pretty much what a late model will cost. However, a modified motor SHOULDN'T cost what a late model motor costs.

jammin
Dirt Administrator

Total posts: 3279
posted May 07, 2001 05:49 PM UIN: 16262997
The one reason that late models are fading away is that the ordinary track can not afford to pay what is necessary to run a car with really high dollar stuff. I just feel like that if we as racers do not do something about the dollar situation, we may be in the same boat as the lates. I personally love to race at many different tracks. Normal modifieds allow that. Do you think that if we go big, that this will be the situation? I dont think that most tracks can afford it. If the tracks can't afford it, then we have no place to run.....sound familiar? It has already happened to lates here in Ark......and I am sure it is still spreading. We have to put a lid on it somewhere if we want to keep our mods on weekly shows.

jammin

MOD RACER#93
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 251
posted May 08, 2001 07:02 PM
i wouldnt do it... but there is a engine claim rule... some people talks about the guys with alot of money in their motors. and how they wish there were more rules on motors... but no one ever just claims the big motor. when i got into the class i knew that guys were running big high dollar motors, (i cant afford one righ now. but one day i will have one) but because of some kind of "agreement" no one claims. if everyone is this fed up with high dollar motors.. then start claiming.. forget about the "agreement"... it is weird to talk about some guys that have better sponsers or can just afford more than others, but when it all comes down to it. nothing ever happens. these high dollar motors just get talked about again during the week. i dont talk about anybody who has more, or can afford more than me. cause if my situation were different and i could afford more i would have more too... i want a 434.. one day........one day...... just my thoughts..

jammin
Dirt Administrator

Total posts: 3279
posted May 08, 2001 08:01 PM UIN: 16262997
Jeff....that is not the reasoning behind this. How can someone come into this class if the costs to get into it get higher and higher and higher? So, what does this mean? The current modifieds are basically the backbone of the class? What happens when we are gone? Will it continue? Or will it be so expensive that no one in their right mind ever try it? Everyone talks about now.....the future of the sport is what I am concerned with. This me and I attitude is gonna kill it. If it continues to escalate.....dirt trackin as we know it will be gone. It is already doing a pretty good job on the lates. How many new guys do you see running latemodels now? Not very many. What happened to their class? The guys that are doing it now are the backbone of their class. How many do you think will be here 20 years from now? More cars? I dont think so. These are my thoughts. I do now wish to offend anyone, but I believe we must do something to put a cap on the classes we have to preserve our sport.

jammin

awkwardjeff
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 218
posted May 08, 2001 09:45 PM
I have sat back watching this post, I will add my thoughts at this point. I wrote a message that either got lost or Jammin didn't feel it's message was proper for this board? I was in a rather NASTY mood when I wrote that letter.
On the cost of modifieds, Jammin is right on the button here. Here where I race the costs of motors has gotten so far out of hand this has already happened, YES our modifieds are dying. Our sanctioning body has let the cost get so high that the average person can no longer race week in and week out. So as a result over the last 5-7 years alot of racers have quit. Well then 2 years ago a person started a NEW class of cars...........MIDWEST MODIFIEDS...... sound familiar? Now this class is taking off like wild fire, growing like crazy because of the people that quit and the people that feel they can no long compete in the BIG mod class. How much longer do you think the big mod class will be around? I will tell you some tracks already dropped them this year. THE FIRST YEAR OF THE MIDWEST MODIFIEDS.
This same santioning body has let the class of street stocks get so far out of control that now tracks have started racing PURE STOCKS.........these are the same things street stocks were about 4 years ago. The sad thing is this sanctioning body is smart enough to see this happening so they now santion all the classes I have mentioned.
This sanctioning body has let the cost get to the point that racers quit, then when the track "INVENTS" a new class to run at their track (un-sanctioned)......then the smart people at the santioning body see what is going on and add this class to their organization.........then the racer all want to racae for points........thus, back to the same old santioning body.........only to start all over again.
I blame the santioning body for this, I blame the racers for this, I also blame the tracks for this mess............nobody can say they are blameless.........not my either.
I will tell you we race on a budget, I have 4 motors, 1 cost about $10,000.......another built this year cost about $8000......the other two are cheap spares. But if I were smart enough and had enough guts to say I will help make the change, I would just show up with my $400 and claim one........I personally have friends in this class that have motors over $14,000..........We are all to blame..........
The good side to this is there will always be someone willing to start this class over calling it something else, so we with modifieds will always have a class to race.

BILLY BOB
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 81
posted May 09, 2001 08:37 AM
I SEEN A DEAL DOWN IN SOUTH TEXAS WHERE THEY ARE RUNNING LIMITED MODIFIEDS NOW. BASICALLY YOU TAKE THE BODY OFF A METRIC CAR AND BUILD A MODIFIED FRAME AND BODY ON TOP. KIND OF LIKE THE OLD WISSOTA RULE. THE MOTORS ARE SUPPOSE TO BE STOCK, IF ABOUT 4000 BUCKS IS STOCK. THEY RUN STREET RADIALS, STOCK 10 BOLTS AND STOCK TRANSMISSIONS, MOSTLY TURBO 350'S. I THOUGHT THE MODIFIED WAS THE AFFORDABLE CLASS. ISN'T THIS A SIGN OF THE TIMES THAT PEOPLE ARE BUILDING BOMBER MODS. THE UMP DEAL IS WHAT IT IS, BIG MOTORS AND BETTER TIRES. PEOPLE SAY THAT WITH THEM LITTLE TIRES MOTOR DOESN'T MATTER. HA. I'VE SEEN AN 18,OOO DOLLAR MOTOR LIFT THE LEFT FRONT AND WIN WITH HOOSIERS AND MCCREARY'S SO THE TIRE DEAL TO ME IS NOT AN ISSUE. IF YOU ARE RUNNING UMP I FEEL THAT YOU HAVE TO STEP UP TO THE PLATE AND BRING A DECENT MOTOR TO THE TRACK. IF YOU ARE RUNNING IMCA YOU BUILD ENOUGH H.P. AS CHEAP AS YOU CAN AND IF YOU HONESTLY FEEL THAT MOTOR IS THE ONLY THING HOLDING YOU BACK. UTILIZE THE CLAIM CARD.
SORRY IF PEOPLE DON'T AGREE WITH ME. SEEMS LIKE PEOPLE GET ON EDGE WHEN YOU START TALKING ABOUT CLAIMING. LOL

modracr41
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 12
posted May 09, 2001 09:59 AM

I have been following this post for a couple of weeks now, and it seems to me that we are all in some faint sort of agreement. I have heard several people state that if the claim was used, this would help. The problem that isn't discussed is this: You have to finish within a certain number of places in order to claim. If the top 6 or 7 cars all run the big $ motors, then you are no no position to claim one. When those 6 or 7 guys all run in the top 7 every week, where does the opportunity to claim come in? Maybe I'm missing something here, if someone else has an idea, please help me ***** my head on straight. If not, what is the point of the claim when you can't utilize it?
Just my two cents......See ya at the track.

jammin
Dirt Administrator

Total posts: 3279
posted May 09, 2001 10:23 AM UIN: 16262997
Well...in IMCA, if you finish on the lead lap in the feature, you can claim. That should be many more cars than just 6 or 7 I would think.

jammin

Wauge28
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 32
posted May 09, 2001 10:48 AM
The problem with IMCA is simple...the claim is unrealistic. A $ 400 motor just isn't realistic. Bert or Brinns, a good idea and still not adopted. Quick change rearends, a good idea because it is still cheaper in the long run if you run 2 or more tracks. I think the Mods are fading because of poor regulations. Take Bakersfeild CA, they still run IMCA and the car count ***** . The pay out is embarassing and they have claiming wars!! Now take Chico, CA... they have a head and intake claim. It allows someone to build a forged short block that doesn't smoke and can take 7000 RPMs without granading. Most will agree that the heads, carb and intake create much of the horsepower. Their rule is $ 800.00 and exchange. THAT's REALISTIC. We are going to Boone this year and I still can not believe that guys in the feature run $ 400 motors...yet I believe the top 10 motors were claimed last year???? What's up with that? That means someone with way too much money goes in to win $ 2000 and is willing to donate a 10,000 motor. NOW THATS WHAT IS KILLING IMCA!

Mod 78
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 15
posted May 09, 2001 10:57 AM
It does not matter how much people are racing for to win they will still spend the money to run up front.
quote:
Originally posted by modracr41:

I have been following this post for a couple of weeks now, and it seems to me that we are all in some faint sort of agreement. I have heard several people state that if the claim was used, this would help. The problem that isn't discussed is this: You have to finish within a certain number of places in order to claim. If the top 6 or 7 cars all run the big $ motors, then you are no no position to claim one. When those 6 or 7 guys all run in the top 7 every week, where does the opportunity to claim come in? Maybe I'm missing something here, if someone else has an idea, please help me ***** my head on straight. If not, what is the point of the claim when you can't utilize it?
Just my two cents......See ya at the track.

bkap
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 30
posted May 09, 2001 10:57 AM
I've been following this conversation for about 25 years now and have participated a time or two. I spent years racing late models against guys who had more money in their engines then I had in my whole operation, tow van and trailer included. I've done the same in other racing arenas, as well. I've seen late models die and come back and die again. At this time I'm ramping up to run IMCA Modifieds again and although I've never been claimed, I favor the concept.

In a nut shell, the reason the class costs have and continue to grow is that racers keep changing the combination, looking to get faster. More horsepower and better ways to make it stick create other drive line problems, like breaking trannys. In short, I say keep the basic formula. If guys want to build big motors and twist the snot out of them, let them. If the claiming doesn't keep them in check, the constant replacing of transmissions might. In a class where small hard tires are used to minimize the effect of horsepower, why should we be offered other ways in which to utilize that horsepower? I understand the durability arguement but the overall cost factor is the overriding concern for me. We're racing for bags of peanuts. Why spend bushels?

And this whole conversation isn't special to dirt tracks. A few years back I began building an SCCA American Sedan road race Camaro, which was totally outdated by rule changes by the time I got it on the track. When I sold the car they were still having the cost vs. durability arguement centering around transmissions. Of course, the class never really took off after a promising start.

Thanks. I feel better now. :-}

BILLY BOB
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 81
posted May 09, 2001 11:59 AM
RUN A BRINN, A QUICK CHANGE, AND 10,000 BUCKS WORTH OF MOTOR. MODIFIEDS AREN'T A SPRINT CAR OR LATEMODEL. LATEMODELS HAVE NEAT THINGS LIKE COILOVERS, ALUMINUM DRIVESHAFTS AND ALUMINUM WHEELS TOO.
ALSO NO ONE AT BOONE PLANNING TO WIN IS GOING TO HAVE A 400 MOTOR, WHY WOULD THEY. IF THE RACE PAYS 2,000 TO WIN A 2500 DOLLAR HORSE WILL GET THE JOB DONE AND ONCE IT GETS BOUGHT, YOU HAVE 2500 BUCKS, WHAT THE MOTOR COST PLUS A BIG TROPHY, THE CONTINGENCY STUFF, A SPEEDWAY JACKET, AND HAD A HECK OF A GOOD TIME. IMCA HAS A 500 DOLLAR CLAIM, SO THE BOTTOM LINE IS, DON'T RUN NOTHIN THAT WE AREN'T WILLING TO LOSE FOR 500 BUCKS.

Wauge28
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 32
posted May 09, 2001 12:12 PM
Billy Bob, I don't know if you understand what I was saying. I am using the argument about cost in relation to the IMCA. A Bert or Brinn is cheaper and more durable than most trans set-ups when including the triple disk and bell housing.

As far as boone, I agree that the good time is worth breaking even. IF you can lose a $ 2500.00 motor but win $ 2500 in return, the jacket and experience is well worth it. BUT!!!!! Are you trying to tell me that the feature last year was filled with $ 2500 motors??? Go ahead, tell me they were!

My motor is 10K plus because it has too be! Not because I want to spend that kind of money but that is what it takes. The tires "should" take big moters out of the mix but they don't. 4 bars, Z link, tire "conditioners", all help those rock hard tires carry the left front. My point was that $ 400 or $ 500 for a motor is not realistic.

BILLY BOB
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 81
posted May 09, 2001 12:40 PM
WAUGE
I MYSELF OWN A BRINN TRANSMISSION, WHICK I RAN IN UMP AND AT THE BIG RACES THAT ALLOW IT, HOWEVER I DO NOT AGREE WITH YOU THAT IT IS NEEDED IN IMCA. I FEEL LIKE IT WOULD BRING IMCA ONE STEP CLOSER TO THE OUT OF CONTROL STATE THAT UMP HAS GOTTEN TO. ALSO I UNDERSTAND THAT TODAY MOTOR COST IS DRIVEN UP BY COMPETIVENESS, BUT THAT IS WHY THE CLAIM IS IN THE BOOKS. TO USE IT AND REGULATE THE CLASS. I'M SURE BOONE HAS A LOT OF BIG MONEY MOTORS RUNNING, AND IF THE GUYS RUNNING THEM FIGURE THAT THEIR WORTH LOSING TO FINISH IN THE FRONT OF THE SUPERNATS THEN TO EACH THEIR OWN I GUESS. LIKE I SAY ALL THE TIME IF WE DON'T WANT TO LOSE IT, DON'T USE IT.

brownstone
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 45
posted May 10, 2001 01:11 AM
Lets call a spade a spade !!
Nobody wants to run a Brinn type trans cause there cheaper.
Its the same old lie that I have been hearing for years. The truth is they want the Brinn legal so they can put more power to it. I have been running powerglides for years with very little problems.

These same people will try to use the argument to sell you on the high price items they want to run.

I have already been hearing the same argument used when they try to sell the idea of making the quik change rear end legal for UMP.

Here's what they say, "there cheaper, more durable, etc.

Whats next ?? Oh those weld bearing shocks are just not as durable as coil overs UMP should allow them. HA HA THats the kind of baloney that we will hear.


Take notice of the peole making these kind of coments many of them are the same ones that dont like the IMCA claim.
Its all just an excuse so they can run lighter more expensive motor and or components.

If you want to run a Brinn then stay in UMP where you belong or go to unsanctioned tracks .
There you will race against others with the same trans and a high buck motor, where you will all be in the same boat.

[This message has been edited by brownstone (edited May 10, 2001).]

MOD RACER#93
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 251
posted May 10, 2001 01:30 AM
brownstone...... i agree that the quick change should not be legal in ump or imca.. however i purchased a brinn trans last year.. for ump.. it really woke my "little" motor up.. waz far better than the old 3 speed i waz running.. and the ram coupler i had.. that by the way has any of yall actually tried to use one of those.??? dont.. and how about the cost of a clutch..??? kinda pricey.. then you gotta have a clutch master cylinder.. and hydralic realese bearing.. $$$$ me and glides dont get along.. after blowing one at a big race when i waz on the front row.. for the heat race to qualify.. anyway.. dont knock a brinn trans.. you could have that much in a lightweit bell and clutch assembly you get from speedway.. then you could have bought one brinn tranns.. your origanal question waz about ump motors... dont knock ump either.. if you race imca then why did you ask the question about ump high dollar motors..????

BILLY BOB
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 81
posted May 10, 2001 07:44 AM
CHEAPER OR RELIABLE IS NOT THE PROBLEM HERE. THE ISSUE IS THE FACT THAT ALL THE MODIFIEDS IN THIS COUNTRY RUNNING IMCA ARE RUNNING SOME TYPE OF STOCK TRANSMISSION WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE LAYNE OR RICHMOND THAT WILL BE OUTLAWED NEXT YEAR.
THE BRINN OR BERT IS A DECIDED ADVANTAGE, IT AS YOU PUT IT WAKES UP LITTLE MOTORS AND ALLOWS YOU TO DRIVE A CAR INTO THE TURN DEEPER BECAUSE OF LESS ROTATING MASS. BASICALLY IT IS A DEFINITE PERFORMANCE ADVANTAGE. IMCA WILL NOT ALLOW IT FOR THAT REASON. BECAUSE IF A GUY SPENDS THE MONEY TO BUY ONE HE WILL HAVE AN ADVANTAGE OVER THE GUY WHO HAS ALLREADY PAID HIS MONEY FOR A STOCK SETUP.

Wauge28
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 32
posted May 10, 2001 12:41 PM
Brown and Billy, Last 2 years I ran a ULGC reverse mount Tilton. The setup cost what...$ 2200 without the trans? I burt up one starter, ($ 325) two clutch packs ($ 400.00) one throwout ($ 205), my teeth on the flywheel are requiring a new flywheel (@ @200) and two Muncie trans and we know how hard those are starting to get to find. I race twice a week and felt that was premature wear. I went to a Glide from Mikes Trans in Lancaster CA. Awesome trans and I am very happy with it!!! I spent $1500 for everything including shifter, coupler, and sheild. I have rebuilt it twice already this year. Once was my fault and once was not. $ 300 for the one that wasn't my fault but just normal for a Powerglide I suppose and I have spent what I assume a very durable Brinn might cost?? Figure those failures as DNFs and now see what money was lost in patout...

As far as light weight and "waking up small motors", isn't that was a power glide does when in drive???? I am not real up on the brinns or berts but like what I have heard as far as how durable and simple they are.

BILLY BOB
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 81
posted May 10, 2001 01:12 PM
WAUGE28
THE BERT OR BRINN TRANSMISSION HAS LESS ROTATING MASS THAN A POWERGLIDE DOES. WHEN SWITCHING TO THE BRINN FROM A STANDARD I SAVED ABOUT 17 LBS, NOT COUNTING GOING FROM A STEEL BELHOUSING TO THE LIGHTER BRINN. I DON'T DISAGREE THE STOCK TRANSMISSIONS FAIL AND COST MONEY. BUT FROM TALKING TO BRETT ROOT AT THE TX NATIONALS IMCA HAS NO PLANS OF CHANGING. IN FACT THE TRANSMISSION THAT RICHMOND IS MAKING NOW THAT HAS THE INTERNAL CLUTCH AND IMCA GUYS ARE USING. IS NOT GOING TO BE LEGAL NEXT YEAR. THE LOOPHOLE IS THE FACT THAT RICHMOND IS PUTTING IT IN A REDESIGNED MUNCY CASE.
ALSO IF YOU ARE NOT RUNNING A REAR MOUNT ON YOUR TRANNY YOU MIGHT THINK ABOUT TRYING IT. WE SOLVED A LOT OF PROBLEMS WHEN WE TOOK THE PRESSURE OFF THE INPUT SHAFT AND TRANNY BOLTS.

Wauge28
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 32
posted May 10, 2001 02:27 PM
That's good info. Thanks. That was the cause of one of my failures...I think. The tail shaft broke, the drive line ended up in turn 3 and the car got pretty torn up until it broke the u-joint. Nasty!

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