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Author Topic:   FORWARD BITE ?
66skip
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 17
posted January 11, 2001 04:27 PM
What effect does pinion angle have on forward bite, when running G.M. metric stock 4 link, if any ?

Limited5
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 141
posted January 11, 2001 07:18 PM
Has no effect. Only has effect on u-joint life. 7 to 9 degree is the norm.

awkwardjeff
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 218
posted January 12, 2001 08:55 AM
Let's elaborate on this a little, pinion angle has NO effect? I'm not sure I would agree with that........but won't argue my point either. but 7-9degrees?????? positive, negative........
A lot depends on the rear suspension design.
I'll assume you have a standard GM four link deal to work with..........start at 4-5 negative .......under power there will be a small change.............under say leaf spring cars because they wrap the pinion angle changes more under power so your starting point would be different

[This message has been edited by awkwardjeff (edited January 12, 2001).]

MOD RACER#93
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 251
posted January 12, 2001 06:49 PM
I responded to another topic on this in the mod tech talk. I have run as much as 13 degrees on smoothe dry slick. Even on my camaro stock car I run 10 or more. One question. How does pinion angle NOT have anything to do with forward bite?? 7-9 is recommended, but I want to win....

p.s. this is a good topic I hope it gets alot of replys.

[This message has been edited by MOD RACER#93 (edited January 13, 2001).]

junkyard
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 32
posted January 12, 2001 09:01 PM
o

[This message has been edited by junkyard (edited January 18, 2001).]

Limited5
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 141
posted January 13, 2001 10:53 PM
Since when was pinion angle considered a part of the suspension or a traction device? Driveline items have no control over traction. Traction is determined by suspension and any traction device used, such as pullbar, 5th arm ect. Can an axle help with forward bite? I dont think so. No difference.Pinion angle is based on suspension movement and travel so that u-joint failure is prevented.

awkwardjeff
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 218
posted January 14, 2001 09:03 AM
Limited5, I will agree that IF everything in the car could stay the same and you could change the pinion angle independent of every thing else you would NOT effect forward bite. If you had a lift bar/ pull bar/ or other way to isolate pinion angle from the suspension mounting hardware........BUT because this is a street stock page, and knowing what the rules are for most street stock classes. I would say changing pinion angle on this car would effect forward bite, ONLY because to make the change you would need to shorter/lengthen trailing arms, or change the angles of the arms ..........these changes are what would effect the forward bite, not the pinion angle.........but you can't change one without the other in these cars......
I'm sure you agree with me, as I agree with you.........I just want the person that wanted the information to get the whole story. Because racers have big ego's we tend to tell only the part that helps our position on a subject......I would never say you lied to anyone, you just left out part of the story. I'm not disagreeing with any thing you said I'm just adding my thoughts.

PS. I think this is why there is soo much disagreement about pinion angle, and other subjects.........ego's get in the way.
Jeff

jammin
Dirt Administrator

Total posts: 3279
posted January 14, 2001 10:48 AM UIN: 16262997
If you were to rotate a housing, say like you would in a 4 wheel drive and re-weld the mounts on the housing, would the input of the pinion care where it was? The suspension movement dictates forward bite. Not the pinion....it would work with the motor in the rear and pinion flipped if the mounts where correct. The pinion is the power source....it does not care where the power comes from, as long as the power is distributed when it gets there(ie...suspension) The pinion could be run straight up in the air, if your motor and tranny could be mounted that way...then the mounts and trailers must still have to have the correct geometry to work....does not matter.

My 2 cents.

awkwardjeff
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 218
posted January 14, 2001 09:00 PM
Jammin, You are right on, but to change pinion angle in the street stock you change the trailing arms in some way.........THE CHANGE TO THE ARMS IS WHAT EFFECTS FORWARD BITE.............DO YOU AGREE?????
Jeff[IMG]

[This message has been edited by awkwardjeff (edited January 14, 2001).]

junkyard
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 32
posted January 14, 2001 09:02 PM
I have to disagree.

[This message has been edited by junkyard (edited January 18, 2001).]

jammin
Dirt Administrator

Total posts: 3279
posted January 14, 2001 09:14 PM UIN: 16262997
I have to agree with Jeff on this one....
otherwise, your latemodels and modifieds would be extremely slow...their pinion angles vary from 5-7 degrees every time the gas is pushed on bird cage cars and some others.

[This message has been edited by jammin (edited January 14, 2001).]

Limited5
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 141
posted January 14, 2001 09:21 PM
Awkwardjeff, did you not just confirm my opinion? What you stated is that pinion angle has no effect on forward bite. What you referred to is changing control arms, that I agree will have an effect on bite and handling. The question was pinion angle, NOT control arm lengths. Your referring to suspension movement now, and as I stated earlier the pinion is NOT a suspension piece. We could argue about this forever, I guess the best way is to try it and see. If I'm wrong I owe you an apology!

[This message has been edited by Limited5 (edited January 14, 2001).]

awkwardjeff
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 218
posted January 14, 2001 09:55 PM
sorry everyone!

[This message has been edited by awkwardjeff (edited January 14, 2001).]

awkwardjeff
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 218
posted January 14, 2001 09:59 PM
Limited5, I agreed with your position from the start.......and you owe me nothing....I was just trying to point out that to change pinion angle in these car requires a change to the suspension.........Thats all.....and that change is what effects the bite.....
People take one part of a conversation and tell a whole story from that......if you miss part of the conversation, the rest of the story may not make sense...........LIKE I SAID BEFORE>>>>>>>>>WE AGREE.....
As far as drag racers and pinion angle, how do they change pinion angle???????? That change is what effects the amount of traction for the launch.......again not the angle of pinion but the angle of the arms that you changed to get the pinion to change.....
these arm changes effect the instant center hieght and location from rear housing.....this is what effects weight transfer under load......(throttle input)
PS. ask someone who has a blow over what happend, answer would be......the instant center was too far forward in the car pulling the front end up, then air got under the front and blew the thing over.......you won't here them say they had too much pinion angle
Jeff

[This message has been edited by awkwardjeff (edited January 14, 2001).]

MOD RACER#93
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 251
posted January 14, 2001 10:35 PM
I changed my mind. Im going to take all the pinion angle out of my car for it will be easier on the u-joints. I dont care if I win or lose. Just so I don't wear out those universals.........lol Me and junkyard know whats up.....

4s racing
Dirt Forum Racer

Total posts: 77
posted January 16, 2001 08:43 AM
Junkyard has a good point.what percent of front bite do you have when you are carring the left front. how does this effect your weight distribution. just wondering.I saw Elizebeth Halpin Smith win her heat race at baton rouge raceway with a flat tire on the left front and set a new record for lap time. the last 3 laps her left front never touched the ground.

awkwardjeff
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 218
posted January 17, 2001 12:29 AM
Mod 93 & junkyard, You two seem like smart people.........PLEASE tell me how you change your pinion angle, so we can discuss what effect that has on your car.......
also when you change ride height I'm sure you adjust pinion angle back to where it started because that is soooo important.

junkyard
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 32
posted January 17, 2001 07:32 AM
Good luck with your racing season Jeff

[This message has been edited by junkyard (edited January 18, 2001).]

awkwardjeff
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 218
posted January 17, 2001 09:33 AM
Junkyard, I'm not so hard to get along with, well most the time. I have seen only two people say pinion angle effects forward bite so far here. And of those two you say that you have tried this and it helped your cars.
And you don't claim to know why, Mod 93 says this is the key to making any chassis fast....BUT NOBODY here has explained why or how this effects forward bite........I along with a few others have shown how people think changing pinion angle helps forward bite, BUT it's not the pinion angle but the changes made to the suspension that helped forward bite................
I'm not so hard I WON'T CHANGE...........this is called PHYSICS, they are absolutes, I can't change them, these are not some lame brain theory.......for every action there is a reaction, and I can tell you physically why me ideas hold up and you can't support your ideas...........I would be willing to change if you could show me HOW this helps forward bite.....................this isn't black magic this is science..........like my physics
teacher told me, I don't agree or disagree, you need to PROVE YOUR POSITION........Jeff

jammin
Dirt Administrator

Total posts: 3279
posted January 17, 2001 09:52 AM UIN: 16262997
junkyard....Jeff is a little BLUNT sometimes, but he is just trying to get his point across to you as plainly as he possibly can. Do not be offended that he disagrees with you....Jeff you neither.....just try to answer the questions and answer as plainly as possible and we will not get out on a tangent. Do not be discouraged Junkyard...Jeff disagrees with many things I think too, but this is what this board is about...an open mind and to talk about(not hash out)different opinions on an issue. I am enjoying these topics and hope that you will too.....Lets keep it clean and learn....we all will if we keep up the pace.

jammin

jammin
Dirt Administrator

Total posts: 3279
posted January 17, 2001 09:59 AM UIN: 16262997
One thing about moving the perches on a car junkyard....if you do not get the back EXACTLY where they were on the rotation, you will affect your car's handling....like if you move the rear to the left a little...your going to enhance your entry by adding weight on the RR tire and taking away on the left rear...this would in fact actually make a pretty big difference with very little movement. Or if you moved the rearend toward the outside you would loosen your car up and make it tighter off of the turns. The reason this is the case is because your moving the weight points on the rearend....on a mod or late, where those points stay the same, you can move a panhard bar in or out and it will not change those points even though your changing the placement of the rear. On a leaf car, it does matter because you changing he physical location of the mounting points of your springs. 1/4 inch can make a difference.

hope this helps some.

jammin

awkwardjeff
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 218
posted January 17, 2001 10:17 AM
absolutely, I'm not trying to offend any person here on this site, I don't have time for that, I was trying to get my point across and make it easy to understand......
I'm sorry that I lack the tact to get my point across without sounding like a nasty mean person........
I learned long ago there is lots of different
ways to be fast, and what works for me may not work for you......don't try and copy me, if you ask me a question I'll give you the honest answer..........I have a piece of 2X4 steel tubing in the trailer that's about 18 inches long, with caps welded on the ends. This is made out of 18 gauge and weight is around 5 pounds..........it's painted white and the number 60 is written on the side..NOT OUR CAR NUMBER.....if you think you can copy me and run back to your car and bolt a pile of lead where I have this bolted to our car you will burn off the right rear tire........when I bolt this on the car I always hang it on the right rear, on the rear bumper for everyone to see.....so what you see may not be what you get......BUT if you have the respect to ask the question I"LL give you the straight answer, (no this is NOT a 60 pound hunk of lead) you may not like the answer, but it's the honest one.
SORRY TO HAVE OFFENDED ANYONE, I WASN'T OFFENDED MYSELF, there were no personal attacks........just disagreement and we are ALL trying to PROVE our positions.....there is that EGO thing I talked about at the beginning of this thread..........Jeff

jammin
Dirt Administrator

Total posts: 3279
posted January 17, 2001 10:40 AM UIN: 16262997
I know that Jeff.....just letting the new guys know it too....I appreciate all the help you have given everyone here and I am glad your a member of our forum.

jammin

MOD RACER#93
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 251
posted January 17, 2001 07:13 PM
Im not offended, who was offended? I consider myself the most easy going person in the world, well racing world anyway.. I dont know why pinion angle makes a car fast all I know is when I bought my mod from a guy who was getting a new one they had set the angle at 5 degrees, cause I checked it (later after trying to get the car to hook) I changed it to 9 like all the books say. I did this by shortening the pull bar(pulling the top of rearend forward) The car was better, so I put a little more in it. More is always better right???...lol. On my second car a camaro stock (I just saw on my tracks website that they have changed the name of class to Late Model, imagine that a 3250# late model with stock camaro skins running hoosier dot tires)...lol. I did like junkyard said I set rearend on springs moved it to the left about a half inch I think I remember checking with it setting there and then bolting up U-bolts and setting the car down and checking on top of the housing, Anyway it was 10 or a little more degrees and I said thats close enough and I tacked it, took it back apart and welded it up. And finally on my first car a street stock malibu, when I was changing to a nine inch I had measured before I took the old rear out. Got the car on stands and jacked the rear to simulate ride height and before I welded on the four link brackets I tipped rear forward until it was 7 degrees. This was my first car and I didnt know no more than what I read in books and this was what they said to set it at. I did not shorten the top arms or lengthen the bottom arms to get it I put it in when I installed the rear end. Once that is all welded up its not changeable unless you cut and weld.. But on my mod I adjust the pull bar (shorten or lengthen) to get it. As far as ride heights Ive had every ride height imaginable on my car r side 1/2 inch higher, lower, back same to 1 inch higher than front. I didnt' really notice a difference in any of them, exept when the back was 1 inch higher than the front that for ME and MY car worked best. Sorry to get long winded. As mick foley says HAVE A NICE DAY!!!

jammin
Dirt Administrator

Total posts: 3279
posted January 17, 2001 07:37 PM UIN: 16262997
When you lengthen or shorten your bar, your changing the angle that the bar is pulling at, this will enhance forward bite.

jammin

junkyard
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 32
posted January 17, 2001 09:53 PM
Well Jeff I have said that I am sorry that I offended you.I wished you good luck with you racing.

[This message has been edited by junkyard (edited January 18, 2001).]

jammin
Dirt Administrator

Total posts: 3279
posted January 17, 2001 10:19 PM UIN: 16262997
Junkyard....Thank you.

[This message has been edited by jammin (edited January 18, 2001).]

junkyard
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 32
posted January 18, 2001 07:20 AM
I have explained my position on this issue several times. I have answered Jeffs questions as he has asked them. I have also made it clear that this is my opinion, not fact. once again I will express how sorry I am. But I read everything posted about this topic and after further review I stand by everything I posted. I am not the only person who disagreed with Jeff, I'm the only one stupid enough to keep answering his questions and stand up for what I belive.I think I have removed anything that will upset anyone .

[This message has been edited by junkyard (edited January 18, 2001).]

awkwardjeff
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 218
posted January 18, 2001 07:50 PM
Junkyard, I was NOT offended by anything you wrote...........I have not replied because I was out of town the last few days. I wish you had not edited out the other stuff, ONLY because this was part of the conversation and some one trying to understand all this will miss some INFORMATION. See junkyard it was all the suspension suff you changed on those two cars that helped forward bite, not the pinion angle.........if you would have made those changes leaving the pinion angle where it was you would have seen the same improvement........mounts are welded on a rear end housing so moving those is not a realistic option for most people, so change arm lengths or angle to achieve the other pinion angle........these changes are what made the car better........I think we even agree on this........you said in you first post on this subject that you changed pinion angle and that helped your cars, you didn't mention then that you change ALOT of the rear suspension at the same time.........I'm not sure if you left this information out because you thought it wasn't important or if it was because it helped my position............LIKE I SAID AT THE BEGINING I WASN'T OFFENDED.....AND I DON'T THINK YOUR STUPID FOR ANSWERING MY QUESTIONS...........I THANK YOU FOR ANSWERING MY QUESTIONS, THIS HELPED ME CONFIRM WHAT I WAS SAYING AND EVEN IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN MY WAY OF THINKING I'M SURE THERE ARE PEOPLE OUT THERE READING THIS POST AND THEY WERE NOT SURE WHICH THOUGHTS WERE RIGHT AND WITH YOU ANSWERING MY QUESTION CAN NOW MAKE A DECISION BASED ON MORE INFORMATION...
I TOO WISH YOU LUCK IN THE UP COMMING YEAR OF RACING............JEFF

MOD RACER#93
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 251
posted January 18, 2001 08:00 PM
quote:
Originally posted by 66sk

Limited5
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 141
posted January 18, 2001 08:26 PM
Man I love this stuff! Lots of opinions and ideas. Your never too old to learn. Trying different ideas and setups is what makes racing so much fun.

junkyard
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 32
posted January 18, 2001 08:48 PM
I was thumbing thru my new AFCO catalog today and on page 75 the races tip on the bottom of the page says"If you are experiencing a problem with rear seals and can't find a problem in the driveshaft, chack for excessive pinion movement.Excessive travel or too little pinion angle may cause driveshaft to bind on transmission output shaft. Try increasing pinion angle or stiffening the torque link/torquearm spring (excessive increase will effect foward bite)" that is in both the 2000 & 2001 catalogs

awkwardjeff
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 218
posted January 19, 2001 01:02 AM
mod racer 93, You have lost me now......are you agreed with the fact of what I stated at the beginning of this post.....THAT it's the change in the arms that locate pinion angle?
I am done trying to explain my position, nobody has convinced me that pinion angle makes a lick, as long as it's separated (isolated) from the rest of the rear suspension...........

Junkyard, If you are bottoming the driveshaft out in the tail of the tranny stopping the bind will help bite....AGAIN how does AFCO recommend changing pinion angle...
I do not disagree with changing pinion angle to keep it from killing the tranny......also excessive movement or excessive travel.....why is that excessive?????fixing that problem will fix the forward bite problem.....BUT AFCO was not talking about fixing bite they were talking about having a tail shaft seal leaking and the causes of this problem
We could also get into a whole other discussion about how some people think pinion angle affects U-joint life......that would be called angularity( the working angle of the joints) this would take into account the angle of the tail shaft of the tranny along with the angle of the drive shaft and the angle of the pinion...........it's the combination of those three things that affect U-joint life
Jeff

junkyard
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 32
posted January 19, 2001 07:32 AM
I only posted that because it states that there is a relationship between increasing pinion angle and foward bite. I issue of dransmission seals and drivshafts have nothing to do with our topic but I felt I should post the entire paragraph not just the part that helps my position. I have never disagred that changing arm angles will affect foward bite. On my leaf spring car there are no arm angles to change. The only change is the pinion angle. You asked earlier if I understood why. I don't but it has helped in my situation.

MOD RACER#93
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 251
posted January 19, 2001 10:09 PM
This is my final post for this topic. I am not going to argue over some silly little thing like pinion angle. The books say 7-9 degrees this is what I would shoot for. Some day we may actually meet at the racetrack and I dont want to be thinking...man he still says pinion angle has nothin to do with bite... Jeff you mentioned in another post that this is great, everybody helping one another, that is what this forum is really for isnt it? To exchange ideas and information from racers all over, plus to make new internet racer friends. I'll just leave it at this, start with 7-9 degrees add or subtract to suit your car and style.

p.s. Bye the way where did Skipp66 go?? He's the one with the question... He's probably watching and laughing at use arguing back and forth standing by our position. Not wanting to give in inch...lol

awkwardjeff
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 218
posted January 20, 2001 07:44 AM
Mod racer 93, I'm not at all upset with anything that was said in this post by ANYONE. Nobody was attacked personally, the ONLY point I was trying to make is HOW you change pinion angle is the BIG affect...
I don't think this question has a yes or no answer, that is why in my first response to the question I said let's elaborate on this subject. People on this thread have now said that the only way to change pinion angle is to change the arms so someone else does agree with me, and I remember Jammin agreed with me, I'm not saying because we agree we are RIGHT, the question was about a stock GM 4link rear suspension.........changing pinion angle on this car would require the change in arms to change pinion angle, it would be those changes that would affect the forward bite not the pinion.........so everyone can see why this is not a yes or no answer......If you say yes people disagree, saying what I have.......If you say no people disagree saying what you have.....I'm sure we are all smart people and KNOW what makes our OWN car fast.......I start with around 6 negative and it goes to around 2 positive under power.........that's what I know works for me......I've also got my motor mounts welded in so the back of the tail shaft is 1 1/2 inches lower than the front of the crank shaft.......so I have angle in the tail shaft.........
Just some final thoughts.......every body is right......for their own car, and their own reasons..........Jeff

PS. I'm sure if anyone here met at the race track we would all say hi, how are you and look each others cars over good....and have a great time together, that's what I do with everyone I race with NOW, racers are a friendly bunch and it's a family sport, that's why we bring our kids to meet all the good people, and I'm sure everyone who posted on this subject is that kind of person.....

junkyard
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 32
posted January 20, 2001 02:58 PM
Skip66 probably sold all of his racing stuff and moved on to a more civil sport, like rugby. If I were to meet jeff the first cold one would be on me. We may not agree but you have expressed your position well.

Limited5
Dirt Maniac

Total posts: 141
posted January 20, 2001 11:28 PM
Lets see if we can agree on which color muffler bearing is fastest now. LOL

awkwardjeff
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 218
posted January 21, 2001 12:18 AM
Junkyard, I like PBR and I'm not sure they have **** that flavor out in Ohio. But sense you are buying I'll have what ever you are drinking..........
I buy a big jug, spin the cap off and throw it over my shoulder and we will all pass it around until the jug is empty........then we can discuss those bearing for that muffler for limited5,

PS. limited5 did you get enought information on the aluminum rods from me???????
I try not to leave anything out.......they are cheap and lite weight but dollar for dollar are no cheaper in the long run....

We may need to extend a invitation to Jammin when we spin off the cap to the jug,he's a great person too.

PPS. nobody commented on that piece of tin I hang on the right rear for other monkeys to copy............you people are all going to build one for yourselfs now aren't you...Because that's a great idea, the fast guys don't need to copy anyone and are smart enough to look at their own car, But it works great for those few people that come snooping around trying to figure this stuff out.........Jeff

[This message has been edited by awkwardjeff (edited January 21, 2001).]

66skip
Dirt Roller

Total posts: 17
posted January 21, 2001 10:21 PM
No' I haven't left the country. I've just been very busy lately. Thanks to everyone for the input. Unfortunately, the only thing I'm clear on is that I opened a very contraversial can of worms.
The best conclusion I can come to, is that pinion angle its self doesn't effect the car, but what you might do to change the angle very well could.
The rearend is in the car with the pinion pointed downward at about 7 degrees. Now all I have to do is convince my son that this has turned the car into a rocket!
Our car is the fifth one down hand side in user pics, so if you see us somewhere this summer with the left front wheel about a foot in the air coming off of 4, you'll know we stumbled onto something. Thanks again for all the input.

SKIP

junkyard
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 32
posted January 22, 2001 06:32 AM

Heck Jeff I spent all day sunday building my right rear tracion device.

RangeRover
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 37
posted January 23, 2001 10:25 PM
A quick question about that pinion angle; Do you measure the pinion's downward angle relative to the flat level floor that the car is parked on, or is the angle taken relative to the driveshaft, as it is not perfectly level with the floor and would change the angle a few degrees?

P.S. You're right Jeff, that fake ballast is a cool idea, and I'm going to implement it on my car, if you don't mind.

awkwardjeff
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 218
posted January 24, 2001 07:43 AM
Range rover, you are trying to start more discussion on this subject aren't you.....Well that's good, everybody here has sat in the pits with me and helped empty the big jug, now we are smart.........LOL
I've argued this with many people, so before I answer let me say........I'M SURE SOMEONE WILL DISAGREE, BUT IF YOU STUDY BOOKS ON DRIVE LINE LIKE I HAVE AND WANT TO DIAGREE WITH ME YOU BETTER BE READY TO TELL US ALL OUT OF WHAT PUBLICATION YOU GOT YOUR MISINFORMATION.......
Pinion angle is from level....the ground, providing the ground the car is parked on is level.......
in one of my last posts I mentioned what drive line angularity refers to.......pinion angel, drive shaft angle, and tailshaft ange these three things make up driveline angularity.............Jeff

PS. to make the balast weight (tin box) most effective try this.......the first time you try this should be on a night when you have a bad draw and will be starting at the back of your heat race.........go out in hot laps and drive the car like a turd, put some extra air in the right rear and skate the thing around...........then come in and get this tin box out of the trailer and carry it to the car like you are straining to carry the weight, when you set it on the rear bumper set it down hard and push down so it appears as the thing is real,.......then pass every car out there and win your heat race, I'm sure as long as you leave the thing on there you will see about 6 guys bolt on lead for the feature................LOL,
Racing is suppose to be fun, this stuff is part of the fun for me........monkey see, monkey do........Jeff

[This message has been edited by awkwardjeff (edited January 24, 2001).]

MOD RACER#93
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 251
posted January 24, 2001 08:30 PM
Hello, It's me again...lol. No I am not going to argue the angle stuff, I just want to say that I am imagining what you are describing by carrying the box(like it's heavy, and pushing the car down). This is good stuff. I think it might actually work. One thing befor I go, when I bought my stock(late model) they call it now, it had over 100lbs. of ballast in a pipe in front of the REAR bumper...Is this crazy or what??? I drove the car for a year like this...It did good, got my first win, and a couple more..I now have it slide in the left rocker panel...Works better that way...I dont know how but it does, I must have lost a ton of rear percentage but the car is still faster...So now I might be able to make a new "PIPE" full of lead for the rear bumper..

junkyard
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 32
posted January 24, 2001 11:29 PM
Weather or not you believe that pinion angle helps foward bite( and according to the nasty e-mails I have recieved about letting the cat out of the bag it might)pinion angle is one of the last things you do before the first race.after all weight is added after ride height is set with the driver in the car on level ground. Now where you setit does not matter, LOL

awkwardjeff
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 218
posted January 24, 2001 11:58 PM
Junkyard, after you are all done setting the car up how do YOU change your pinion angle?
I think you should patent this idea of yours and sell it at the trade shows. I'm not sure I understand how it works and You have addmited you don't understand.........But you know more than me I guess, because of the email you have recieved you are more convinced this really works.........
I haven't recieved one email on my fake weight that hangs on my right rear, BUT I know that this works. I have used this trick on dry slick tracks to get people to burn the right rear off. Has this helped me in the past? Sure it has, did I let the cat out of the bag? NO, I'm not the first guy to think of this idea........BUT, maybe I should patent this as MY idea and sell it at the trade shows too........there is a cool idea, me and you team up and go in business together..............Jeff

MOD RACER#93
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 251
posted January 25, 2001 12:13 AM
Y'all know what I do to cure the nasty e-mail problem????? I block all e-mail.......hehehe... Naw I havn't received any nasty e-mail...well not if you count that one about...... .......never mind...LOL.

junkyard
Dirt Full Roller

Total posts: 32
posted January 25, 2001 05:24 PM
By rotating the housing in the AFCO leaf spring mounting pads until the desired angle is met, then I put about an inch of weld between the housing and the mounting pad. I don't think the fake right rear weight will cause anyone to burn up a tire. Our street radials never need to be replaced until they are cut in a wreck.

awkwardjeff
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 218
posted January 25, 2001 07:29 PM
Junkyard, You need to be down south telling them guys getting ready for speed weeks all your knowledge.........They sure could use a guy like you to tell them all the hot setup stuff. I wonder if this is one of those top secrete things them cup guys keep in thier tool box list of things to check.
And You must be one of those guys that COPY me with the weight thing and you don't want to addmit that you went backward on more than one ocassion on account of this fake weight on the back of one of your competetors cars................
I've used this trick for years and been impressed with the way it works in every class of cars I've tried it with, I've even built a couple for other people and they report the same things as I've stated.....
DON'T TAKE ANY OF THIS PERSONALY, WE JUST DISAGREE ON PINION ANGLE, BUT WOULD ENJOY RACING WITH EACH OTHER I'M SURE........Jeff

MOD RACER#93
Dirt Freak

Total posts: 251
posted January 25, 2001 08:14 PM
You two are something else....lol. I just looked at your profile junkyard and it says occupation "car crusher"...No wonder we have the same thoughts...Were both in simalar type of occupation...I think car crushing is the coolest...whatching all those old cars get fliped over and gas tanks go flying aaaaaaahhhhh the smell of 20 year old gas...lol. Radiators and condensors ripped and tossed aside...Then finally put in the Press and smashed flatter than a bug...I love watching the heavy machinery..always have..

[This message has been edited by MOD RACER#93 (edited January 25, 2001).]


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